Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters .22 RF alternatives

Revisiting an idea tried before in different iterations and looking for thoughts. In days past there have been several straightwall .22 CF cartridges, the most recent failure being the Cooper .22 CCM. They were in circulation and competing with an abundant supply of cheap RF ammo and fell by the wayside.

We have been on the wrong side of the price/supply equation for some years now and I ponder the viability of pursuing the idea once again. Rather than trying to recreate the Cooper round I'm thinking that the target for performance should or might be the .22 LR at the standard velocity range with 40-45 grain cast or jacketed .224" bullets, something that would be suitable for the handloading crowd.

Some of the numbers I ponder:

Depending on a few variables, 3,500 - 7,000 loads from a pound of powder. Assuming $25/# we are left with about .35-.71 cents/round.
Assuming $2/# for lead, the cost per bullet is 1.15 cents per round.
Primers will cost about 3 cents each at current prices.

Total cost per round, excluding brass is about 4.85 cents per round. I figure brass life to be very long due to low pressures and on assumption of compatibility of die/brass dims. Lighter bullets or round balls might be driven with only a primer, thus presenting some additional cost reductionns.

Thoughts?

Don't be bashful, I can take a jab or two.

Not straight walled but the .22 Hornet can easily load down to whatever velocities you want.

True, and having traveled that path with mediocre results it does not inspire. Thinking load density is key to success and a straight wall case has some advantage. I suggest, based on experience, this endeavor would favor cast bullets for the most part. Pounding a stuck jacketed bullet from a Hornet barrel is not a lot of fun. They tend to start doing that around 1100 fps in a Ruger #1.

I just make low velocity hand loads for my 223 bolt action.... 1800 FPS, 55 grain FMJ bullets I paid $.05 for, so really more like the 22 WMR. And cheappppp.

I download a .221 FB for small edible game. 13.o gr H4227 w/ 55 FMJ for about 2,100 fps

How do you get 'em slowed down that much? Pistol powder?

I went through this at the peak of the rimfire "shortage," and ended up with a Lyman mold that casts wheelweight bullets that weigh 43.5 grains. Supposedly they're gas-checks, but I tried various alternatives and found they shot best from my Ruger 1B .22 Hornet unsized without gas-checks. I just cast them and rolled them around in Lee Alox, then loaded them the next day. Also found I didn't have to resize even the necks of cases, as the "oversize" bullets (around .225") seated just right in unsized brass. The best accuracy turned out to be with 5.0 grains of Accurate 5744, for 1080 fps and sub-inch 5-shot groups at 50 yards. All my wheelweight metal came free (and still does, when I pick 'em up off the street), so the total cost per round is about a nickel. One of the best parts is that when the 3-9x Burris Fullfield II on the rifle is sighted-in 1" high at 100 yards with full-house varmint loads using 40-grain plastic tips at around 3000 fps, the cast load shoots right at the tip of the bottom post at 50 yards, with the scope set on 6x.

Also worked up a .22 magnum equivalent load with 8.5 grains of IMR4227 and some 45-grain Remington round-noses I got really cheap somewhere years ago. This load shoots even better at around 1750 fps.

When the rimfire shortage hit I just kept shooting my 38 special's, a K38 revolver and a S&W 52-2. Loads were cheaper than over paying for 22LR. Latest is a S&W Model 53 in 22 Jet. Not as cheap as a 22LR, but WAY more Bang for the buck..

Thanks for that info. I have not tried cast in a Hornet yet, it something to ponder.

I wonder if Mr. Kilbourne's spirit will be angered if I do this in a M54 he did some work on?

Nah, but if it makes you feel better, make some jackets out of 22 cases. On the left is a 43 gr. .224 bullet made from a 22LR case. Trimmed to approx. 0.6 of an inch (8 grains weight). The rest is yer led. That should assuage the guilt.

7.5 grains AA#5, magnum primer, 55 grain FMJ.

I favor the .22 Hornet for such work. Using a 55 grain Lee Bator cast bullet (actual weight with gas check 52 grains, cast from cheap or free wheel weights, sized .226), 2gr. Bullseye= 1080fps, 2.6gr. PB= 1200fps, and 6gr. 2400= 1600+fps. As per others results, the most expensive component is the primer (CCI small pistol) but whereas others opt out of using gas checks I do use them which increases the per shot cost another 2.5 cents. But, I haven't had to buy lead in years so that balances things out. I'm blessed with a superb 26" barrel on a (German) single shot, with a gain twist that ends in 1-9" near as I can tell, but with a large throat hence the large diameter bullet. It will shoot the low velocity loads into an average of an inch at 50 yards, 10 shots, which is ok but not great. Where it really shines is with the 2400 load which provides groups nearly half as big. Not really .22LR performance, rather more on the order of a .22RF Magnum. All in all I'm quite happy with the Hornet and cast bullets for cheapness, accuracy, and squirrel killing ability.

Accuracy with the Lyman 45 grain 225438 isn't as good, for me. Accuracy with a 60 grain RCBS mold is good but not quite like the Bator. The 52 grainers seem to fall into a sweet spot for my rifle.

I laid in several hundred new cases for this rifle. So far I'm still working on the first hundred, and the rest are getting dusty on the shelf. Without going back through my log and adding them up, I think each case has been fired around 20 times each and still going strong with only a couple failures due to operator error at the loading bench.

That said, I've often pondered the viability of dramatically shortening the Hornet case into something like the .22 Squirrel, only shorter. Say, something to perfectly contain 2-3 grains Bullseye/Red Dot/Clays, and with a nice long neck per the Hornet to nicely hold long-ish bullets. I like a heavier .22 bullet for added wind cheating ability when shooting at what passes for long range with such rigs. A barrel twisted faster than the standard Hornet 1-14 or 1-16 would be wanted for it too for dealing with longer bullets. So many ideas, so little time/money!

Pardon the sideways shot...



The charge weight isn't quite accurate either though the rotor info is correct. I think it actually throws 5.6 or 5.7 grain of Lil'Gun. The charge was purely accidental but it seems to work very well with the Lyman 55 gas check bullet noted on the target. I did try using some 'softer' primers, but Lil'Gun in light loads doesn't seem to ignite well; CCI 450s are the ticket.

(BTW, this target fired at 50 yards.)

With decent .22 pellets costing 1.5-4 cents apiece, as opposed to 8-10 cents for .22s, a decent PCP airgun would pay for itself eventually, and knock the snot out of small game.

Good springers can be had for less, but they're trickier to shoot, can't be left cocked for long periods, and require "airgun scopes".

Here's a project you might take on Gary. Build a 25 ACP rifle. Go ahead! It'll be fun.

Have plans to try some trailboss in 223. Got a little CZ carbine loads of cheap brass and bullets. Data suggests a 55 gr at about 1075 with 4 grains of powder. Plan to play around with cast probable a little bit lighter weight. Figure I should end up with a cheap plinker somewhere between 22lr and mag levels. Not 22 lr rifle cheap. But cheap enough to be a fun high volume shooter. Also can keep my stash of 22lr intact.

When I was a young teenager, growing up in the sticks and knowing no one with any real knowledge about guns or reloading, my only source of info was whatever gun-related books the local library had in stock, and they were old then. I read everything I could get my hands on gun wise. I had a pretty vivid imagination too, so one day after probably reading an article on something like the development of the .357 Bain & Davis, I considered the posibilities. I wondered if I could be the first person to invent a necked-down .17/600 Nitro Express, and at the other extreme, why no one had built a .25 acp revolver or rifle?

Yet another factor is that with Trump's election, rimfire ammo is becoming abundant and cheaper. So it depends on whether dinking around with low-powered handloads is worth it, as opposed to just buying a bunch of rimfires.

Personally, my wife and I are going out this weekend to shoot up a bunch of rimfire ammo at ground squirrels, and are not really worried about how to replace it.

I tackled this a bit differently, using the .25-20. I found both a Marlin 1892 Classic and an original Stevens 44 that has a relined barrel. Need to revisit load development for both of them.

The Ruger #1B is a bit heavy for a .22 Hornet, IMO, but I've heard they usually shoot well. I have a .218 Bee in the same and it is quite accurate, at least with full power loads. The Bee is arguably a bit better designed case, but maybe not so great at rimfire equivalent loads.

Brass was a headache for both the Bee and .25-20, but at least now Hornady has starting selling Bee brass, which can be necked up to make the .25-20

My oddball answer to the question is an "0" buckshot loaded flush with the mouth of the case over 1 grain of Bullseye and shot out of a Martini Cadet. I dab a bit of liquid Alox on the buckshot after it's loaded into the case.

For me, anyway, the value of.22 rimfires is in the convenience, not the power level. A good supply of.22 rf means I can go out and burn up several hundred rounds in my.22 handguns or the grandkids can massacre tin cans all afternoon with their 1022's . Reloading little cases, casting little bullets, I have no time or interest in. Closest I ever came was developing an 1800 fps load for 63 grain Sierras in .222 for turkey/fur friendly purposes.

A custom rifle for the 5.5mm Velo Dog cartridge would precisely fit your criteria.

http://www.ammo-one.com/5-75VeloDog.html

25-20 with 3g of RedDot or 2.8 of W231 going by memory, and a 75grn speer. Or my full steam loads of 10.8 4198 75grn speer, or 11.8grn 4198 and 70grn blitzking. The first two loads sound like rimfire, but the last loads work just fine on rabbits and bigger stuff.

I also load a .223 with RedDot 6-7grns 50grn vmax for 22mag results.

257R 90grn hpbt Sierra 10.5-11grns RedDot duplicate 25-20 load levels. Slow enough that the bullet doesn't deform.


I do like the idea of a cut down Hornet case though. 50-55grn bullets at 1050-1400fps load range.

Hey Oddball, are you related to Oddjob?

I have had similar thoughts about doing the roundball thing and might well fiddle with that, but it does not present to the objective I ponder.

I get the sense of comments so far to be fair on topic of "alternatives" as framed by working with what's on hand. BTDT over and over and over again. Said previously that I'd not shot cast in the Hornet and that was incorrect. I fireform the K-Hornet with the Lyman 225438 and get respectable 100 yard groups and fair snappy velocity, ballpark 2300 fps, while using gas checks and Alox lube. It is the opposite direction from where I was looking at this. I mentioned the possibility of using jacketed bullets, but that that is not where I'll go with this, assuming I go anywhere at all. And yes, I've pondered the .25 ACP rifle, looked at the iterations of shortened Hornet cases, the .297-250 Rook (cases can be formed from Hornet brass) and worse.

Most of you know about my adventure with the .30 Sneezer, a project directed at a specific objective and one that was/is successful in my view. It was blooded recently, Dan 2 - Pigs 0. I fiddle with it in the never ending quest for, well, you know what I'm talking about, right? One of the outgrowths of the endeavor is recognition that with reduced charges/low load density, all loads/powders evaluated to date exhibit evidence of position sensitivity, this with load densities running approximately 35-75%. My holy grail has been to remain sub-sonic but the round certainly has the capacity to go faster, maybe up to around 1,400-1,600 fps with the 180 grain bullet. Likewise, the round if remarkably responsive to the different impulse provided by rifle and pistol primers, favoring the pistol primers by large margin. So, three brands of primers in both iterations, 2 different bullets in 3 different alloy combinations, and 12 different varieties of powder...they all work to get me to the minute of pig brain, but that is not where my thinking was oriented on this. Yes, I tried full cases of 3FG and 1.5 FG and duplex loads as well. Cleaning the suppressor in the dishwasher was the schizzle!

Today's review of .22 RF prices, specifically, Wolf MT shows prices of 6-17 cents/round + shipping, depending on source. Midway says it is discontinued? OK then, it isn't that much different from other price spreads. Don't know I'd call this representative of RF prices, but it is within the landscape. See this link: https://www.midwayusa.com/rimfire-ammunition/br?cid=7547

So back to the original quest. Seems to me there is some potential for this. A few years back Federal ran a lot of unloaded but primed RF brass on a special request and it was not a small lot of cases....that sold out pretty quick. There were a lot of cranks out there loading their own and getting impressive results, to include the use of BP in some cases. I suspect there is a viable market for this but am not settled on form. Market target? Why, cheap ol' cranky loons of course. Duhhhhhhhhh....

Dan

PS: I eschew the thought of heeled bullets by the way...

Bristoe,

I did essentially the same thing with #4 buckshot when experimenting with the .22 Hornet, though I squeezed them through a Lee .224 sizer. One grain of Red Dot got around 900 fps, but accuracy was only good enough for 25-yard shooting, and even then the shot needed to be sorted for uniformity before being sized.

I've some experience doing that with the .44 mag in a rifle and it worked well. They were paper patched, dunno how queer that sounds but you can blame it on Ross Seyfried. Single balls shot well out to 50 yards at velocity under the 2000-2100 fps realm. They stripped at 2400 fps. Double ball loads were the curiosity. Consistently made two respectable groups (~1.5"), one on the 10 ring, the other at 10 o'clock and about 3-4" out. Never quite figured that out.

I also did a few mouse fart loads, but the paper patching of a round ball is....tedious.

The accuracy of the buckshot load isn't nearly as good as with typical bullets, but it's decent out to 50 yards if you keep the velocity low,...and keeping the velocity low is necessary if you plan on eating things you shoot with them. For whatever reason, a .322" buckshot exhibits a surprising amount of disruption when fired from the little Martini at about 1900 fps.

At about 30 yards they'll explode a grapefruit. A couple of them virtually disappeared. I'd guess that a squirrel hit anywhere except the head would leave little for the cookpot after being hit by one.

Esoteric.

This is stuff I did in our basement when the folks were gone. Got a hold of some ~ .40 cal Minnie balls (conicals, Civil war era imitations)), where I don't remember, and loaded them in an emptied 410 shot shell. Have no idea of their weight but probably more than the three-inch shot load held.

I knew enough to know they had to fit through the choke of my H&R single shot but not much more.

Was amazed and then distressed that they penetrated my barrier of whatever and then went into the wall of the basement.

Gee,..now how do I fix this up? 😜🤔😀

My apologies for the side track.

Ah yes, round ball revolver loads

Speer used to publish round ball loads for the .44mag, using .433 dia round balls. Sometimes they worked okay, and made a plunk - whack at the indoor range, plunk for the discharge and whack as it hit the paper a 1/2 second later. Drew lots of curious stares

At one point I had a squib load, in the 6½" S&W .44 I was using. The ball stopped 1/2 way out the muzzle, which at least made it somewhat easier to grab & remove. Also filled the barrel with 1/2 burned Bullseye, which for the record, smells bad

I abandoned that project at that point. I notice Speer doesn't publish the loads any longer, either. It might be fun to revisit it with Trail Boss, Titegroup, or something else position insensitive.

George De Vries,

Your story reminds me of shooting half a Q-tip halfway through my hollow closet door from a .22 rifle. It was powered by a .22LR cartridge with the bullet pulled and the powder dumped out--just the priming. I had tacked a shoe box full of wadded newspaper(evidently not wadded tight enough) onto the closet door for a target. The half Q-tip penetrated the lid of the box, the wadded paper, the bottom of the box, and the outer plywood layer of the door. From a distance of eight feet, maybe. Like you, I was amazed and distressed.

Here you go. The flintlock version of a 22. With 32 caliber patched round balls it can be a 22 CB short to a 22 Magnum depending on powder charge.

I think the 38 special comes closest as a replacement. 3-4 gr of fast to medium fast powder under a 100-150 gr cast bullet makes for an outstanding small game load. Once fired brass is dirt cheap and plentiful and plenty of good molds available. Yes, more labor than just buying a box of 22's and takes up more room in your pocket, but it's a good option when you're looking for options.

Exquisite.

Reminds of trying to fireform a 218 mashburn bee case in that garage. It's been many years so I forgot the exact charge but around 5 gr of red dot under a 60 gr hollowpoint which I figured was enough to get the bullet out of the case when fired from my 10" contender. That it did, and it managed to penetrate three 2X4's, a 4X4 and when it hit the concrete floor it was still going fast enough to crater the concrete and expand to the size of a quarter.

Lesson learned, don't fire a projectile from a firearm unless you have a suitable backstop.

Thank you George.

Popped into Wally World for some WD 40 to spray down the Ranger and eased over to check out ammo. They had 1000 round boxes of Winchester 40gr 22lr for $50 and some change. Bought 2 leaving another 10. That's right at a nickel each.

More winning

Mart, that is way too simple as solutions go. Really.

Your Loony Friend,

Dan


PS: Nice flinter, very nice indeed! Did you notice the lock is on the wrong side?

Take a close look at the target and ammo. 4mm translates to .17 caliber on this side of the pond. Primer propelled only, ~800 fps out the muzzle....over the Chrony.

Actually I noticed the lock is on the correct side. Most people don't realize this but everyone is born right handed. Only the truly gifted among us recover from it to become correctly handed.

The Fall 2016 issue of Classic Arms Journal has an article by Hamilton Bowen on loading black-powder .22s, unfortunately using primed cases acquired by pulling regular .22s apart. The bullet mold he uses, and the crimping die might come in handy though, both from Old West Bullet Molds.

To this date, I stil don't know why someone hasn't taken the FN5.7 pistol round and started producing rifles for it.

Rock island arms makes the 22 TCM in a handy little bolt action. The 22 TCM is very similar to the 5.7. But everything the 22 TCM can do, can be done by most any 22 centerfire if you handload. And do it way cheaper.

Well, there is the P90, with up to a 16" barrel. Quite the critter to shoot. I was amazed while shooting the shorter, full-auto version, that the red-dot sight never left the target. Really fun to shoot, and I'd guess effective. Never shot anything but targets with it.

Re rimfire alternatives - dang, I just buy & shoot 22 and .17 ammo. Hasn't been a problem getting it, at decent prices, for a couple of years. Made it through the worst of the shortage via a large quantity I'd built up, buying a brick here and there over the years.

Guy

Custom 32 acp twisted for 70gr wadcutters to 90 gr pointed loaded to 1000 (or less ) fps in a T/C or repeater ( all it takes is $). Custom moulds of your choice. Cheap brass, cheap loads, as much as you want to spend on the rifle, cans, sights etc. Fun and cheap to plink with the ability to kill anything with head shots. It even has symmetry - 32 Automatic Crat Pacifier

Guy,

As I noted earlier in thread, my wife and I plan to shoot up a BUNCH of rimfire ammo today, including both Long Rifles and ,.17 HMR's. None of it broke the bank, and the only load "work up" occurred when trying different Long Rifles to see which shot most accurately. (So far I haven't ANY inaccurate .17 HMR ammo. In fact I shot one round each of three different kinds at a 100-yard target on Thursday, and they went into less than an inch.)

But you know, and I know, and most others know that making things easy isn't always the goal of rifle loonies. Instead much of our lives are spent making things complicated, apparently because for some reason we have more fun that way.

This includes Campfire threads.

Bristoe, your balls are ready for the ball, hey? What did you coat them with?

I'm thinking (odd this early in the morning) a short version of the .22 CCM would be a path if any brass was available. Admittedly, the .32 Auto Crat Pacifier has a certain, well, mebbe delete the Auto part and it's the opposite of PC on several levels, and that ain't a bad thing. I like a little bit of rim though. Hmmmm.....

Just back from putting the mic on a few things and find the following numbers:

Small pistol primer diameter - .175"
Large rifle primer diameter - .209"
.22 LR case diameter forward of the rim - .225"
.22 LR rim diameter - .273"

Yeah, it needs a rimmed case. If a fella rolls with the LRP/LPP you might get some snappy velocity with nothing more in the case, especially with round balls. Helluva tool for introducing youngsters into the world of shooting/reloading etc.

It gives a bit of a sense of tedium unless one owns a Dillon or other high volume production equipment. On top of that, went out yesterday and cast up a batch of 200 Lyman 225438 bullets, put the gas checks on (they are destined for the Hornet) and sized the little buggers. Didn't know that fingers keep growing like ears and noses. Thinking there is one helluva marketing niche here for Hornady and the swagged lead bullets they sell. That would be for the well off amongst us, otherwise we can cast and move on.

Mule Deer, sometimes you are remarkably perceptive.

-laffin'-

Breakin' the bank is secondary to occupying time and having certainty of availability. And world class precision. It isn't hard to equal or beat OTC rimfire ammo accuracy with handloads.

We get us another pinfire liberal in the Oval Office and this last run on ammo will look like a Sunday social.

I just put a drop of liquid alox on the buckshot after they were loaded into the case.

I guess I march to a different beat because I started playing with rimfire replacement loads 4 decades ago and will continue to shoot reduced Hornet loads as a preference over full tilt loads, even if .22RF prices fell to 1966 levels.

Don't get me wrong- this in addition to the rf ammo I love to shoot also.

I've had jacketed bullets stuck in the barrel of my Savage .22 H-P, and instead of pounding them out, I took a primed casing with a mild charge of a suitable powder (sans bullet), chambered it being careful to point the rifle slightly upward to prevent the powder from spilling out but not pointing skyward and then pulled the trigger.

Worked like a charm. It may or may not have been real good on the throat, but probably better than the damage to the rifling that would occur from pounding on a rod.


As for your original Q, I haven't done much playing around with this theory, but 5 grains of unique and a .228 cast bullet makes a great .22 H-P squib load. I'd imagine any other .224 centerfire and .225 or .226 cast bullet would be fine with 4-5 grains of unique. With .223 brass littered at every gun range, I doubt you'll ever run out of free brass if you went that route.

Don't let this go to your head, but the picture makes it look like you have brass balls.

Tinman, dat's risky bidness. Might be I'll try that next time though. It was 20 years back when I was poundin' the barrel.

Oh, for those long ago prices. I remember in 1957 the local harddware store was having their Washington's birthday sale(remember those) Winchester .22 Shorts at 25cents (regular price) but of one cent more, a second box.

During the mid 70s Shotgun News had someone listing 10,000 .22 Shorts for $100.

Ya, not knowing what to expect, I put on some safety glasses, turned my head and fired from the hip...but it just went "pop" real quietly like the other squib loads (with the same 5 grains of unique charge and same bullet that was stuck for that matter) and all was well. Same everything as the stuck load...just more room for the gas to expand in the chamber and a portion of the barrel, so the pressure was much lower.

I certainly wouldn't try that technique with a full charge of a regular powder, but it got that stuck bullet out easy peasy.

Off on another adventure a short while ago at the load bench and wound up doing some rearranging of misc. stuff. Came across a long forgotten bag of stuff that had two cartridges, a .25 ACP and .32 Short, a Colt cartridge if memory serves. Dang it....I might get in trouble yet.... Didn't know it but that little ACP has a bit of rim, about .020" over belt diameter.

So does the 32ACP. That's why you can shoot them in your 32 S&W Long handgun.

I am speaking out of ignorance here, but I'm wondering if this idea might have some use for me in regard to squirrel hunting. I've got a dandy Ruger American Predator in .223. I have an endless supply of .223 Rem brass. I've got 8 lbs of Universal Clays, but I could probably get a pound of something else for the task if needed.

What would be a good load for a 40 grain bullet driven at 22 lr or 22 Mag velocities?

Interesting stuff here; good to know perhaps for the next supply calamity, and fun to play around with. Also useful for those of us with nice rifles that don't get used much otherwise and could be put to use for small game. Honestly though, anyone that gets caught short again only has himself to blame.

Down here in the flatlands only rimfires are allowed for squirrels. And shotguns of course. Check your local game regs.

oops. Checked. You're right. Kentucky wants rimfire only. Drat.

It's still a good idea for blasting ammo. What's a good recipe?

12.5g IMR 4198 & 50g NBT

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/11174113/1

I use 13.0g IMR 4198 & 55g Horn SP w/c @ 2.190" COAL. It shot 0.620" for 4-shots at 50 yards. That bullet at regular .223 speeds was a poor performer in my gun (1.93"-2.85" 4-shot groups @ 100 yards). You can find it at Midsouth Shooters Supply for about $23.50 per 250 or less than 10c a bullet.

Oh, and that's with a CCI 400 primer and FC brass. It clocks right around 2,100 fps which puts it square in the middle of the .22 WMR and the .22 Hornet. Not a bad place to be for a small game or plinking load.

Too much powder and too much lead, but it might be suitable for Jurassic Squills.





Just did a remeasure of that group, the numbers didn't look right. Think about .18". There are two pairs with the .12" spread, but widest spread is the larger number.

Had forgotten that thread, not a bad read at all. Didn't see any leopard print though.

Shaman, WAG on my part but you'll be looking at something around 5 gr for starter to find a ballpark load for .22 LR velocity. Probably less, but I'm disinclined to lead you down the path to stuck jacketed bullet in the hole. WMR velocity range will be more tractable. If you have a access to cast bullets of proper dimension, think 2-3 grains for starters.

Scale it down to .22, Dan, and you would be in high cotton. Exactly what I was opining about above.

Is what I'd like to do. Puzzle about a case that suits.

Dan,

Have you played with Trail Boss powder in any rifles yet. I just started using it in some handguns and am going to try it in some rifles for low power loads.

A wee bit with TB, found it functional but never quite hit a home run with it. Close friend of mine thinks it the best thing since peanut butter. My primary observation was the velocity spreads were large and accuracy so so.

gnoahhh, my own prejudice on the topic, but I would prefer a straight wall case and may accept a caliber larger than .22 before all is said and done. I blanch at the idea of a custom case hand crafted by gnomes. I'm guessing at the end of the day that I'd go larger caliber before necking a case down, but cannot deny either. .32 Wesson short might work, but brass is a conundrum, or .25 ACP. Could tweak that one with a little bit of choke in the case mouth and still have some capacity. Or no choke and just live with a 50-60 grain bullet. Recollection has it the .25 is a truish .25, something like .251" diameter, +/-...Yep, SAAMI sez so. Barrel in .251" groove is going to be a quest. .22-.25 AI Squill Smasher?

.32 Short Colt looks more groovy...if I'm going to neck it down.

Remington Golden Bullet 36gr .22 LR at Academy Sports is $28.99 for 525 rounds, with free shipping. That makes it about 5.5 cents per.

Thanks for the suggestions re: light .223 REMs. I may give that a try this summer.

Dan, any obscure sources for Velo Dog cases? Perhaps an old eccentric hermit someplace with a thousand vintage cases in a bag weighing down his collection of S&H Green Stamps?

Been looking for a case of VD without success. That doesn't sound right? Yeah, it would do very well and I'm sure they are out there somewhere. Imagining conversation with the custom crafters of dies, reamers and such....needing those things for a VD short.

Working this out is interesting and educational. Looking at alternatives without guardrails last night and my eyes settled on a shotgun primer I had just removed from an old Alcan 16 ga brass shell. One measurement led to another, and another and....hmmmmmmm.

Small rifle primer nominal diameter .175"
LRP .210"
Shotgun primer .228" on the forward end, .305" on the rim
Fired 22 brass
- case mouth ID ..205" (CCI Quiet, fired but the crimp still remains
- OD .224"
- rim OD .273"
- case length .605"

Standing by for a stroke of genius.....or just a stroke...

I've got the makings of a Rem #4 in 25-20. Seems a good choice to me. Wanted a 22 straight walled case, but 25-20 is old school cool too.

Are you sure a #4 Rolling Block has enough moxie to contain a .25-20? They were only made in rimfire chamberings, and not of the highest quality alloy steels at that. I guess if you kept handloads down to rimfire pressure levels you might get away with it, but what if/when it falls into the hands of a yahoo who tries to ratchet things up? Remember, it's only the pins that support the breech block and hammer that absorb the backthrust of the cartridge's discharge, and those pins are mighty small in a #4. If you tried that trick with even a #44 Stevens, which at least has a modicum of receiver support for the breech block (if fitted up properly), every critic with a conscience would advise against it.

Best to barrel it as a .22LR, stick to standard velocity ammo, and call it good.

It's NOT,.....and you just had some very good advice offered, by G.

GTC

Privi Partizan used to load the velo dog. I e-mailed their marketing dept. asking if there was a possibility they might produce it again noting there is no other source at this time.

Met a guy at the local trade school a few years back. He carried a velo dog revolver chambered to hold 8 rounds of 25ACP.

My bad, #2. Had a 1, 2, 4, and 6. Got confused.

OK then, only 20 lashes with a wet noodle.

That's better,.....

A SUPERB choice !

I always thought something like the old .25 Stevens with a CF primer would be the diggity for small stuff. But I may be prejudiced. Grand dad used one to kill hogs when I was 8 or 9 and some of his hogs ran over 500 pounds. Made quite an impression on a young kid.

A Stevens 44, in .25-20



reminds me I need to revisit load development with it

Have one of those in .25-20 SS that is a fair shooter, but all I've done with it is BP loads on the 100 yard line. Offhand. Good for about 8" groups of 10. I enjoy it and consider relining the barrel with the same chamber. Dunno I'd say I haven't looked at it in context of the discussion at hand.

From one day to the next I live with certainty that few original thoughts exist these days, and sure enough this road has already been paved.

Meet the .220 Rook

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.220_Rook

There's a couple bricks of them at the LGS. Want me to grab them for you? Boxes are a tad time worn, but the ammo should clean up ok.

The last original thought occurred in June, 1972, in an inflatable in the middle of the Niagara River.

Tag

That 44 is ugly.
You want my #2, let's trade.

The 25 Stevens deserves to live again, or a 25 -17WSM.

Dan,

Upon reading up on the Velo Dog yesterday I also came across the .221 Askins. That's even closer to what you are looking for then the Velo Dog, but considering it's based on the VD case it would be even more work/rare. The .221 Askins is the VD case cut down and the rim filed down to match the .22lr profile, but a CF cartridge...

All the work of obtaining and then modifying cases (not to mention the firearm) would undoubtedly negate any cost saving in making a CF .22lr...

But it is kind of neat.

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/askins.htm

Worked for me in a Winchester 1892 rebored to .357 .....

Azar, thanks for that. Had not heard of that variant of the old V-D. Obviously a game changer.

Were I to stumble across an ample supply of Dog cases I'd roll with that. Anyone have any idea what a limited production run might cost and who would do it?

Quality Cartridge made Velo Dog brass a few years back. They don't currently list it at all though.

Thanks again, have phone, will call.

Each time I think of what I want next for a plinker I look over at the Marlin 1894 357 Mag and smile. Brass is everywhere and cheap. Powder is everywhere and at 5gr drops is cheap. Lead bullets are everywhere and 158's are cheap. Less than 12 cents per shot and I'm not melting lead. Oh yea.

Dan, there really isn't any viable competitor for the 22lr niche, that said a 22 hornet as a pair for the 22lr will pretty much cover whatever you are attempting to do...just don't bother chasing velocity with it like most do.

Top rifle is a Brno ZKW 465 in 22 Hornet, bottom is a 1958 Brno model 5 in 22lr...pretty much covers what I want without chasing my tail.