Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles WORST modern bolt gun hunting rifles?

Just curious as to what people think are the WORST rifles, especially when it comes to gas handling and other safety features, accuracy, durability, reliability, etc. Might as well thow in worst value for your money, too.

Worst instance of a major gun manufacturer putting their name on a crap rifle - Rem 710/770 series

Ugliest rifle ever made - T/C Dimension

Any of the non Model 7 or 700 crap remington has imported (except for the mini mauser clones)

TC Dimension

I wonder who came up with the idea of a Hogue Overmold/AR-15 love child.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/rifles/flexing-muscle-mossberg-mvp-flex-review/

mossberg.

ive had great luck with recent rem 700s.

Worst value for your money is probably a converted Mauser or Arisaka.


Okie John

+1 on a Remmy 710 for worst rifle ever made...traded into one in 30-06 to use for hog hunting in rough stuff on Public Ground, 1st hunt, in the rain the rifle rusted, 1st shot at game in the rain & the POS bolt stop failed on the reloading cycle and the rest of the sounder hauled Arse with a wounded hog on the ground and needing to finish the 200 lb'er and I'm standing there watching 20+ piggies leave with the bolt out of the rifle in my right hand...all I could to NOT thriow the danged bolt at them...Traded the gun to a dealer after I Spray Painted it with Rustoleum.
BUT it did fit me well and felt nice in the store, oh well never bought another Remmy rifle since then in the last 17 years.
Ron

Remington bolt rifles with the exception of 700 and 798.

"Highbeam" , I still have a Hogue O M for my 10-22......somewhere, I'd have to look for it. It was BULBOUS in the hands.




Say Hig.. it's been a while since I MIS read your handle. I figured it out when in your response you called me JMALL
It was UNintentional , a simple misread.

Jerry

Coyote - since I'm not a gunsmith I don't feel I have a qualified answer to your ?

At the same time, there are a few Brands-models NO ONE will ever see me carrying/shooting/hunting. Admittedly that's my prejudice.
Some on appearance, some on feel, some on reports of others but it IS the way I feel.

I'm not a snob using ONLY Blasers, Kleingunthers, etc. I have Rems, Wins, Rugers, and 1 98.
Edit to add - Tikka T 3

Jerry

Worst value is probably a sporterized military rifle.

Worst model recent production bolt action sporting rifle is probably the Remington 710/770 series.

I only like Rugers, Winchester Mod 70, Sako, or Howa/Vanguards. Anything else I'm not interested in so that would be hard for me to say. Not interested in any Remingtons 710, Mossbergs, or anything along that line. Sorry, I guess I'm a snob.

Actually it's a toss up between the Raptor and the Remington 710.

I wouldn't know I don't buy them. One cheap Rossi pump .22 magnum and a Taurus 22 LR revolver and I'm cured of crap guns for life.

How about the Savage B Mag?

We can close the thread now. For a long time I thought the Raptor rifle was going to be unbeatable (Charter Arms bought it and improved it and Mossberg bought it from them and improved it some more, but it was really rough in its original incarnation.)

But Remington managed to sink even lower with the 710/770. It makes a Bic lighter look like a shining example of Old World craftsmanship. When I worked at a gun shop the buyer bought two sight unseen. They ended up as door prizes for a hunt club dinner because none of the salesmen would show them to customers.

Yep, the 710/770 is the low point for modern centerfire rifle production. And I hope it remains so.

If by "worst" we mean the ones the are most prone to parts breaking or coming apart, I can tell you that there is one American made bolt action that leads the pack in needed repairs by over 6X.

I know. I am one of the men that repairs them.
In fact I use to work at a service center for the western states, for the company that makes it.

Not hard to figure out.
If you go to a Brownells catalog or a Midway catalog you'll find offerings for conversions to replace it's extractors with other designs and factory replacement extractors too.

You'll find a LOT of after market triggers offered.

In the past and maybe today you can also find jigs to hold the bolt handles in correct alignment to the bolt bodies,so they can be re-soldered back on then they come off. (which they do from time to time)

No other gun has as much "support" ------so called.
(which really means parts to repair and replace the defective parts and weak parts)

In fact, no other gun or gun maker of today has many after-market goodies offered at all, because they don't have as many failures. Even on the lowest-priced guns, made by other manufacturers you don't see anywhere near the number of parts failures. Replacement triggers yes, to improve trigger pulls, but not aftermarket parts made to replace broken parts.

It is one of the most popular bolt action in the USA, but that is NOT NOT NOT a reason to believe it's best.

it is very pretty and very well finished as a rule, and slick to operate. Also as a rule they are also quite accurate.
But overall if fails more then any other bolt gun.

In my many decades of gunsmiths if I look at the "bound books" and see what guns I have done major repairs on for the reason of part failure, this bolt action has more entry's then the next 6 models or makers combined.

See if you can guess which one it is.

It's popular enough that naming it seems to be insulting peoples religion, or insulting their kids. It draws hatred and excuses. But facts are facts.
Opinions can vary as to what those facts mean, but the facts still stand.

Szihn.

Brownells also sells a hell of a lot of m1911,AR-15 and Ruger 10/22 parts too. Does that mean THOSE designs are inherently flawed as well?

Browmells sells so many aftermarket parts for Remington 700s for this reason alone-
More Remington m700 rifles have been built in the last 50 years than any other centerfire bolt action rifle in the US- I believe over 6 million.
Plus all of its siblings which use many of the same parts- the m600,660,m7 and XP100.

So, just by shear mathmatical odds alone- you would see more of them in your shop. Or more folks want to customize them.

And BTW, Remington m700s have always been reasonably priced rifles. Which means a lot of ignorant newbies have owned them over the years.
Which leads to idiotic things like improperly adjusting or not maintaning triggers or getting talked into converting the extractor design to the SAKO or AR-15 style because. some "expert" told them to.. And sadly,some of those self styled "experts" adjust Remington triggers lower than their factory designed pull weights and sear engagements. Or flood them with oil that dries over time and leads to malfunctions.

But once a gunsmith or lawyer gets involved- magically that all becomes Remington's fault because they did not make a MORON PROOF rifle.

The 30+ m700s I have owned/shot/tuned during the last 30 years have all run just fine
Feed and extracted fine .Clean, safe triggers and good to amazing accuracy right out if the box.No ADs or misfeeds.

BTW, No rifle model is a "religion" to me..The bolt action centerfires in my cabinet currently include everything from Pre 64 m70s and Sakos to a new Ruger American. And right now, there are more m700s in the rack than any other model because in my experience -they work.

Beat me to it, I was gonna say the Craptor, with a side order of 710/770/783 Remingtons.

There are some others that remind me of crap on a stick, T/Cs stand out, but they usually are better than those mentioned above.

jk16 all your points are valid and all worth examination. So lets look and examine theses thing honestly.

Yes mathematically the M700 has been produced in very large numbers since 1961. I agree. But no where near as many as some other rifles because they have been in production for many time longer, like Mausers,Mosins and so on.

So not counting parts destroyed by "buba's" trying to modify parts when they don't know how to do it right, let look at facts.

In 5 decades of gunsmithing I have had to replace BROKEN Mausers extractors exactly................zero times.
Winchester M70s ..................................Zero times.
Pattern 14 and pattern 17 Enfields ......................... Zero times.
Springfield 1903 1903A1 and 1903A3s 1 time
Mosin Nagants I have replaced the extractors on 4 times. (M/Ns are the most manufactured Bold action in all firearms history Remington m700s are about 7% of MN production)
"T" head extractors from Savage, Mossberg and Howa (Weather Vanguard, and S&W marked ones too) 14 times.

Remington M721, m700, m600 and 660s 82 times. And I have not been doing that since 1957. Only since 1968.
My co-worker in Nevada also had a record of his repairs in the Service Station, and he did 54 of them.

Now lets ask how many bolt handles have come off that needed to be replaced on Remingtons. For me that number is 34.
I have seen 4 Tikka where this has happened and it's even worse in that the bolt bodies have broken, not the handle so there is no repairing a Tikka when that happens.

All other center fire rifles combined.......zero times.

"Brownells also sells a hell of a lot of m1911,AR-15 and Ruger 10/22 parts too. Does that mean THOSE designs are inherently flawed as well?"

Nope, but as you said some folks want to replace parts because of their wishes. I have seen my share of broken 1911s, but most have been work out, not broken. I have only seen 2 Ruger 10/22s ever with BROKEN parts, one was a broken trigger pin and one was a broken ejector. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I would guess the 10/22 is getting pretty close to the M700 in overall numbers.

As far as triggers go, you are at least 1/2 right. Many people screw up Remington m700 (and similar Remington triggers) from trying to adjust them and doing it wrong. But no more then try to adjust other makers triggers. But we don't hear near the reports of other makers trigger failing. As I said up above, I am not counting cases of "buba's" working on guns, made by Remington or anyone else. Only those that break or come apart with no incompetency added by anyone since they left the factory.

Go to our records and see how many that comes to from Winchester, Weatherby, Savage, Howa, Browning, Mossbeerg, Marlin, Springfield Armory, Mauser, Dumolin, Rigby, H&H, Purdey, Merkel, Walther, H&K, and Steyr combined, and compare numbers.

You also make an excellent point that your 30+ m700s have done well. I agree. You see this is a comparison. It's in answer to the 1st question asked. It's not really a condemnation. The question was not "who makes a bad gun" but who's gun is the worst one.

Now that means that if you have 20 guns with a 99.999999999% satisfaction rating and one gun with a 99.99% satisfaction rating, the one with the 99.9 is the worst one. Thats a mathematical fact, not an opinion. And it doesn't mean the 1 with the 99.99% is bad.

By far, most M700s made and sold do fine. Remington is in financial trouble over some issues on a very small percentage of their production. But that percentage is larger than everyone else's.

That's the reason for the answer I give.

I am not saying they are bad, but I am saying they are not as good as most others.

I have had a couple 783s and they were very well made and shot very well. I have had a 700 and 4 ruger centerfires I couldn't have hit a basketball with at 100 yards due to them shooting patterns. And those were 500 plus dollar guns not a $299 783 model.

Worst one I have had? Ruger number one. Heartbreaking because I love the look and feel but it was just too inaccurate to keep...1 shot here another 4 inches away, etc.

Worst in general? The raptor based mossberg that would toss the bolt back through your eye socket.

Of the couple of dozen or so 700s I have/had since 1975, I've NEVER had a single issue with ANY of the complaints registered. Also I have adjusted the trigger on EVERY 700 I've had, PLUS many for friends. I know some folks have had problems.

Name me ONE company, gun, auto, tractor, train, plane <whatever> that their products have 100% perfect service w/o any % of failures. NONE.

IMO the no. of failures/breakages is infinitely small compared to the number of 700s produced.

Jerry

I agree on the 710/770 but why ya throwing the 783 in there also?

Interesting. I've had good luck with the Rossi and Taurus rifles and revolvers that I've owned.

Rossi 59 and 62 pump guns and 515, 518, and 720 revolvers.

Rossi 441 revolvers.

Except for the plastic front sight blades, I actually prefer the Rossi 720 to the S&W 696.

To answer my own question is problematic as there are so many rifles I dislike for various reasons. The Remington M710/M770 stand out as I'm more familiar with them than many of the others.

When Remington came out with the M798 I was excited. That excitement lasted until I handled my first one, which felt like it had sand in the action. So did the second and third one I tried.

The "value line" rifles currently available (Savage Axis, Ruger American, etc.) fail to excite me. There are simply way to many good used rifles available at reasonable prices for me to drool over them. Case in point, a Savage FXP3 I bought for $295 out the door at a gun show last year. It was chambered for .243 Win and shoots holes touching at 100 yards. Kind of homely but a solid action that is easily re-barreled, which was my intent until I shot it. Over half my rifles came to me used. I still see many good used rifles at gun shows at prices that would be irresistible if I was in the market for another rifle.

A POS Mossberg shotgun I bought decades ago soured me on anything Mossberg. Mossberg still doesn't have anything in their lineup that interests me. Their tacticool "reinvention" of the lever action .30-30, the 464 SPX, is easily one of the top contenders for ugliest rifle ever built.

I am.... Best marketing hoax perpetrated since global warming...

Generalisimo ? Saw him in person in La Coruna , there was a Naval Review in the Harbor.

yes sir!

Amazing how many idiots that live in the US have no comprehension of what went on in the Civil War and the root cause of that conflict.

Legions of them...

Mossberg MVP, Smith and Wesson I-bolt. 2 of the worst in recent memory!

Hor Hey - How many Rem 700s have you had, PLUS how many have had problems ?

I would bet that YOU have NOT had 6 Rem 700s that had failures.


Including myself, having had many 700s + several friends with them--- NOT ONE of us have had ANY problem.

Jerry

I currently own one. A very accurate, heavy barreled 22-250 we keep in our place in PA for groundhogs. That's all we use it for. Loaded single round and never use the safety. I don't own any Yugos either, but somehow I know they are POS. Does your safety lock the bolt? (rhetorical question). That alone right there, is enough to elevate them to POS status.

RE M700's...

I've had exactly two. One, a beautiful .308 BDL, was arguably the most accurate rifle I've ever owned, putting 6 or 7 of the first 9 shots into a vertical string half a diameter wide and about three diameters high. The remaining shots were almost touching the others. Since these were development loads with 0.5g increments in powder, the vertical stringing was of no concern. That rifle had a problem with head space, however, and was hard on brass. I traded it away to get my first AR.

The second said "Special Purpose Wood" on the box. It had a checkered walnut stock but no end cap. It also had the magazine floorplate. Chambered for .30-06. Price was right ($425 new), so I couldn't pass it up for a work rifle. Not my most accurate rifle but certainly acceptable.

So far no bolt handles have detached and no extractors have broken. But, sample of two and neither much fired.

jorge

my question is "how many 700s have you had problems with? (given you trouble- grammatically correct).

My answer is, out of MANY 700s NONE have given me any trouble.

Jerry

I gave you my answer, including the yugo analogy, i.e. your experiences and mine are not enough of a universe to make a judgment. However, an internet full of documented cases and litigation are...

So, while I'm not certain I'd say the 700 is the worst design, I would say it's often subject to the worst execution of any major mfg. I've seen a batch of 10 brand new M24s, where 4 had to return to Remington for various critical issues, before firing. I've seen the matte finish wipe off with cotton and rust while you watched. I was a Remington fanboy for decades....lost that faith. The raptors were pretty sketchy....had almost forgotten about those things.

Pre-64 Model 70 Winchester.

Did you hear the one about the drunk driver in a Yugo who hit a four year-old on a tricycle?

They're charging the four year-old as an adult, he left the scene of the accident without rendering aid to the Yugo driver.

Not very often does Hollywood get anything gun related correct, but they sure did in that movie with Kevin Costner titled "JFK".....The Italian Carcano, just as they said in the movie, "has to be the worst shoulder fired weapon ever made"...If you have ever handled one that is bad enough, but to actually fire one and then think about the actual shooting that was {I guess} done that day....I gotta agree, "the guy couldn't do the shooting" I mean, in reality the idea someone, anyone, did that shooting with that rifle....honestly makes the so-called "magic bullet theory" seem entirely plausible.
I guess you are looking for more modern stuff, but I am just surprised that nobody mentioned this rifle on this thread up until now.

Never crossed my mind that anyone would consider a carcano a 'modern' design.

The problems with the Carcano relate mostly to the bore size (.268") when the common bullets in 6.5 are .264". Sort of a recipe for poor performance, added to a gain-twist barrel, and you've got a whole smorgasboard of crap-on-a-stick. When Hornady does up a batch of ammo for them, they actually DO use .268" bullets, thus making them almost useful. Winchester and Remington (Oswald had both, IIRC) Carcano ammo did NOT use .268" bullets.

No argument that they were crap, but they aren't "modern" crap.

McDonalds has sold more hamburgers than anyone else during my lifetime. No one ever said they were very good; the 700 series is a lot like McDonalds hamburgers.

I don't think the 700 series is the worst design, but it did set the bar for cutting corners. I'm referring to the entire lineup of 700, 600 and 7 series of rifles. Folks complain about the cheap sub-$400 budget rifles but if you look closely most of them are a big improvement over the 700 design. If you compare the 700 series to a $350 Ruger American the Ruger has a stiffer bolt and action, a better extractor, better trigger, better bedding system, better designed bolt handle and all of them I've shot were more accurate. But for 2X the money you can get a shiny stick of wood and metal.

Ouch.

Their POS status must be why virtually every custom action is based on the design. Makes perfect sense to me...

I doubt that I've had 30 but more than ANY other manufacturer Even today I have more 700s than any other. I've had them for years w/o ONE problem. I have NO fear when handling, shooting, or hunting them > too much experience with the ones I have. IF there were problems w/mine "something" would have shown up by now -- hundreds if not thousands of rounds shot.

Yes, they do work.

Jerry

Considering the VAST numbers of 700s made and sold -- it's a very small % that have had failures.

I think POS is far from accurate and far from appropriate.

I'll repeat, name JUST ONE company who has A product with 100% reliability and ZERO failures.
They don't exist.

Jerry

+ 2, Good Point, Sitka

Jerry

The problem with the Walker trigger, which was pointed out by the designer (Walker) and could have been fixed for a few cents per rifle, were not only ignored by Remington, but publicly denied by them for decades. According to court documents Remington classified the trigger problems as “Fire on Bolt Closure, Fire on Bolt Opening, Fire on Safe Release, and Jar Off“.

Remington’s own manufacturing documents showed that a high percentage of the rifles coming off the manufacturing line had improperly adjusted triggers that could result in FOR (Fire On Release of safety) discharges. In the Model 600 series I seem to recall sampling showed over 50% had to be readjusted before shipment.

While it is true that triggers improperly adjusted or maintained by owners/smiths could and undoubtedly have resulted in issues, the fact is that some rifles were prone to FOR problems when they left the factory. In short, people died because Remington refused to raise the cost the trigger by a few cents per rifle – basically putting profits ahead of safety. That isn’t a problem caused by morons or lawyers, it was an easily avoidable problem that resulted from Remington’s poor judgement and greed. Remington denied and people died.

Do Remington extractors break? Most do not, a great many have.

Do Remington’s bolt handles separate from the bolt? Again, most do not, a great many have.

While I liked both the M700’s I’ve had (and I still have one of them), I have no blinders on and no sympathy for Remington. Remington brought the problems on themselves when they decided settling lawsuits would be cheaper than fixing the Walker trigger for a few cents per rifle.

+1. This place is constant entertainment.

I don't think that any of the big three American ammunition makes, FED/REM/WIN, ever offered factory loaded 6.5x52 Carcano ammo. When I was a kid, the only common factory ammo made for foreign military cartridges other than the 7x57 and 8x57 was Norma and in a couple of cases, 6.5x54 M-S and 11mm Mauser come to mind, from CIL.

To you, yes, but let me go check what the premier gunmakers (you know like Echols, WR, H&H, etc) are using. OK done...

The Remington 700 is the firearms industry version of the small block Chevy V8 engine. Common as dirt, easy to work on, and tons of after-market parts for the guy who wants to personalize his property to fit what his idea of good is. I currently have 55 firearms from the Remington 700 family, some original, but most modified in some manner to better meet my specific needs/wants, none of which have had any sort of failure. I am very conscientious about cleaning and maintaining them whenever I use them so that the probability of operator influenced failure is as close to zero as I can make it.

I don't understand why an individual who isn't involved in the industry would care what other people buy or like.

I'm generally pretty careful with my opinions on equipment around here - mostly because one never knows the company they might be keeping within the confines of the campfire.
George, no offense, but with each passing week here, you sound more and more like a haughty aristocrat.

There are far too many people here (and all over the world) that can and do shoot whatever they want, hunt more in a single season than you have in the last 10 years, and could fill your modest trophy room 10-times over - with POS 700's.

I really don't care (or understand) why so many people buy them. There's a reason why there is an entire cottage industry built around bolt pins, extractor replacements, and of course the magnificent trigger. Very accurate rifles indeed, but for me the last straw is a safety that won't lock the bolt. The small block Chevy works fine as is, the 700 does not.

I a Mauser man. 1909 Argentines are my favorites, but have several nice customs on VZ 24. Then there are the M96 Swedes, Huskys and Carl Gustaf's. The Winchester Mod 70 is a variation, as is the Ruger M77, and the Weatherby is variation of sorts.

Remington's have faster lock times, but no African game has noticed in my hands.

I can't stand the Blaser.

I've probably owned close to 100 rifles in the Remington 700 family over the past 50 years, still have 55, and have never had a problem with any of them. A small percentage of a very large number may be a meaningful number to some people, but it remains a very small percentage of the entire production run. Remington may look at their error rate and after comparing that number to the number of 700s produced, find that the error rate is too small to be worth fixing. I would assume that cost to benefit analysis is taught in operations 101 in every MBA program in America.

And of course the litigation pay outs. Tragedies wrought by that POS trigger is of no concern. And I still hate the non locking bolt un-safety. I'm glad you are happy with them.

I'm sure they can, just as sure as I can say the same thing about folks who own Model 70s, Weatherbys, Rugers, etc. It does not detract from the facts of the known issues with 700s. But, making it personal as you have, speaks volumes of an attempt to divert form the factual issues with 700s. The question was asked soliciting opinions and that is exactly what I gave, an opinion on what you ascertain to be limited experience. It sounds like yours must be vast. I'm SO happy for you.

The correct cost-benefit analysis is a few cents per rifle versus many cents per rifle. Assume 5 million M700s manufactured and 5 cents to fix the problem. That comes to $250,000 over the life of the product so far. Add $50,000 for every additional 1 million rifles produced.

Now consider the payouts for the lawsuits, the cost of lawyers, the increased cost of liability insurance and lost sales due to bad publicity. That cost will easily be in the multiple million$ and I suspect is in the ten$ of million$.

When Walker warned of the problem and provided a solution, Remington should have listened.

A note re my last post....

That post was not written to bash Remington. That said, a careful review has led me to believe that Remington acted with wanton disregard for their customer's safety. They are not the only company that has done this and won't be the last.

A few years back Sako had a problem with stainless barrels blowing up. Did they issue a recall? Not that I noticed. Instead they tried to track down the rifles that could be affected, knowing that they could not track them all. Eh, whats a few untraceable rifles with potentially bad barrels? Maybe nobody will get unlucky...

Amen, I thought I was the only one..............and I agree with your points about never !!!!!!!!

If I may interject a question please, how would you know if a Walker trigger is in your 25 yr. old M700 30-06 ?

Should I take it to a good gunsmith ?

Sales are about a lot more than just branding. The folks able to afford the custom makers you listed likely grew up in the Jack O era and so developed their obsession with the pre-64 70... but Winchester was so proud of the design even they dropped it for quite a while.

Confusing good bean-counting with ignoring safety issues and using anti-gun-media-derived lies like Walker's "memo" is playing into the anti-gunners hand.

Locking bolt safeties are available, easily, and cheaply for the 700. Lawyers forced that move after a woman killed her son while unloading her rifle while pointing it at her son (yes, through a stock trailer) and no one (not even Jack Belk) could make it repeat the action. At the same time EVERYONE could make it repeat the action simply by placing their finger on the trigger. It was all about balancing financial risk with cost.

Okay, so you watched and believed the very biased 60 Minutes show which has been proven repeatedly to have lied...

Those that don't carry their own rifles and pay to hunt, generally don't use 700's. Those are also the last ones to get advice about anything hunting related from.

Carry on

Possibly the worst modern rifle (dollar for dollar) I've had any experience with is probably the Golden Eagle (affectionately known as the Gilded Turkey by those familiar with it) this was the epitome of a polished turd.
The Cooey Model 71 was a Canadian-made winchester derivitive which took the post-64 Model 70 and cheapened it even further. It was cheap, homely, and poorly finished but was usually surprisingly accurate.
The Midland 2100 was a Parker Hale effort which used a crude Mauser-like receiver which was fitted with a Springfield bolt. Crude, clunky, and unattractive, it should never have been made. GD

Because you ask - if you are concerned, yes.

Never saw the CBS show about Remington (at least not that I can recall) but did do quite a bit of research on the subject some years back.

I bought a M70 Winchester ten years ago and that sumbitch wouldn't hit due east....until I worked it over!!

Most of the gun manufacturers know that the average Joe doesn't know schitt about firearms or what's good accuracy so they can get away with building schitt for firearms!!

Thank you Coyote Hunter, wasn't sure if it only effected newer rifles...I'll take it over to be checked, and change to a quality after market if needed,,,love my Remingtons.

They certainly aren’t the type I would generally seek advice from, but they are not necessarily the last, either.

Not sure what to make of your post, but it shows as a reply to me.

If you are suggesting I don’t carry my own rifle, you are mistaken. Been carrying my own all my life. Well, except for one antelope hunt in Wyoming where I took two of my nephews. Loaned each a rifle, didn’t take one for myself. After the second got his antelope down, I “borrowed” my own rifle and carried it until I got my own antelope - so even then I carried it while I was actually hunting.

Also, if you are suggesting I pay the big bucks to hunt, you are again mistaken. We hunt Wyoming antelope on both public and private land. When on private land we give the landowners $50 per antelope down plus the landowner coupons, which I think are worth $16 each. None of the several ranches we hunt want have asked for money – the $50 is just a goodwill offering on our part. Earlier this week I sent a thank you letter to one of the ranchers with a photo of Daughter #3 and her first big game animal, a doe antelope taken last year on his ranch. We hope to be back on his ranch again in October, along with a couple of other ranches.

Since I got started hunting Colorado big game in 1982, missing only one year since, I have paid to hunt private land in Colorado exactly three times. The first time was in 2009 or 2010 when my hip was so bad I could hardly walk around the truck. I paid $500 for the opportunity (and was happy to have it) but ended up passing on the shots offered. Another was a year or two later when my hip was still bothering me and I paid $300. The last was for the opportunity to hunt a rancher’s hay field. He didn’t want any money but I took a decent-sized buck and left a goodwill check for $100 in his screen door when I left. All of my other hunts have been on publicly accessible land. (This includes Colorado’s Ranching For Wildlife ranches, which are equally available to all Colorado residents and for which licenses cost the same as regular public land licenses - about $49 these days).

This is just a me thing, but I have never owned a M77 Ruger that shot worth a sheit. I may try at some point in the future, but it has surely never happened yet.

Just sayin'. donsm70

Remington has a recall on some of their newer triggers but the Walker was the old design they used for decades. A rifle you cant trust isn't a rifle I would want to carry, hence my response. I trust my M700 but I also treat it like I do my other firearms - never point it at something you're not willing to destroy.

What EXACTLY do you think is wrong with the Walker trigger? You have not said anything specific and of substance and I am wondering whose line of reasoning you are swallowing.

For a time Ruger bores were three thousandths oversize to reduce the possibility of serious pressure problems... that did not make them shoot better...

One of the most accurate rifles I have ever dealt with is a tanger 77V in 243 I bought in 1977 and still own. It can do amazing things...

Load it, put the safety on and pull the trigger several times hard, then look down the muzzle while you release the safety... If you see a bright light it will be the first time...

Double entendre intended...

Remington has churned out a lot of turds.

That has been my experience as well.

All said and done though, I think a pretty good case has been made for the M700 as the worst built, the primary issue being the trigger issue.
I've owned 3, still have one. They all worked and shot fine, accuracy was OK . The 300RUM was a tackdriver, quite exceptional for my experience with 700's back in the 90's.
I've since had as good accuracy as that 300RUM, with Tikkas, Weatherbys, and Brownings, carte blanche.

Sincerely hope Law is not your day job if you think innuendo, hearsay, and guesses build a case! Especially against the trigger. Did you know Jack Belk has never been able to duplicate a trigger failure on any Walker trigger claimed to have failed and caused harm without intentionally maladjusting it? You do realize how easy it is to have a finger on the trigger when pushing off the safety, no?

So how would you explain virtually all custom accuracy actions being 700 clones?

Remington's own manufacturing records, for one.

I agree that an FOR discharge should not happen and that in many cases it probably has been the result of mal-adjusted or dirty triggers. The question is who adjusted the trigger and when. Remington's own records showed many M700s and a much higher percentage of M600's (same trigger) failed testing as they went down the manufacturing line. Are you suggesting none of those made it into the wild?

My experience with Rugers is I've never had a M77, MKII or Hawkeye that did not shoot well. I don't spend a lot of time shooting for groups at 100 but when I have the results have been good to excellent. By "good" I mean 1" to 1-1/4" groups at 100. Most shoot better than that. By "excellent" I mean holes touching at 100. With one exception, all I've ever done to them is tune the trigger, float the barrel and work up handloads. The one exception is a Hawkeye I bedded because it was giving me fits. The problem turned out to be the scope. I've posted target pics before so I won't bother doing so again.

Dammit, I love your target pics too...

All the Rugers I've had were 77 tangers, red pad. I've had hunting accuracy to exceptional. There is ONE thing I found to be critical to get best accuracy. The 'angled' front screw HAD to be adjusted just 'right' for each individual rifle.

IME what adjustment worked for 1 rifle did NOT necessarily work for another. Wth a little Xperimintin I could get at least 1" groups.
My cals/cartridges were 300 WM (hard kicker), 243s, 270s, 308 W (1).

I didn't especially like that 'finicky' aspect but other than that the 77s were working firearms for me.

Jerry

I had one of the early Ruger M77 MKII Stainless rifles in .30-06. I think I acquired it around 1991-92. It had the boat paddle stock and this one was a push feed and not CRF (early ones were push feed but had the claw extractor). The rifle was tough as nails and would take anything you could dish out. However, it never produced excellent groups. Accuracy was mediocre producing 1.5-2" groups with factory ammo. Handloaded ammunition might produce groups a hair over 1" @ 100 yds. I was never impressed with it and it went down the road.

Umm, by being the originator of the this thread, the default "quick reply" is addressed as a reply to you...

It is far from hard to discern whom Steelhead was addressing in that post.

Same here. Well built rifles but they have not been tack drivers for me.

OOPS - I also had a R 77, 1976 "200 Yr American Liberty" in 257 Roberts.

Wish my memory worked like 1976


Jerry

None involved in court cases involving physical harm has ever been seen to repeat the act even after greatly extended testing. Jack Belk tried on a bunch and failed until he maladjusted them. He was paid well and called them junk. 60 Minutes did a hatchet job on Remington.

My first Ruger was a Mark II in 7x57 Mauser purchased about 15 years ago. My son has taken two deer with it so I gifted it to him. No kidding, i went out with it one day to Clark Brothers in Warrenton and shot a six inch group at 100 yards with Remington factory ammo. Next time I went out with it, the rifle put three shots into a 1.5" group. I don't recall doing anything to the rifle that was an "aha" moment with respect to fixing that six inch group. i figure it had to be shooter headspace and timing...

i have a lot of respect for Rugers, i expect them to go bang every time i pull the trigger, but don't expect them to shoot amazing groups in my hands. For that matter, in my hands, my M700 ain't a tack driver either.