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I have a lefty in 7-08. Deer and pigs hate it.


Dave

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So, WHY is the RAR so accurate in so many chamberings, right off the shelf? What is the secret sauce? What did Ruger do right, while controlling costs?

I am going to guess that smart engineers used modern precision CNC and QA/QC throughout the build to produce a rifle with a stiff action, an excellent bore, a crisp trigger, proper headspace, and minimum SAAMI spec on the chamber, all controlled to extreme tolerances, with a stock that does not interfere with barrel harmonics...

but figured I would ask...

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Steve Redgwell
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not deep enough. more engineering details please

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Originally Posted by Dogger
So, WHY is the RAR so accurate in so many chamberings, right off the shelf? What is the secret sauce? What did Ruger do right, while controlling costs?

I am going to guess that smart engineers used modern precision CNC and QA/QC throughout the build to produce a rifle with a stiff action, an excellent bore, a crisp trigger, proper headspace, and minimum SAAMI spec on the chamber, all controlled to extreme tolerances, with a stock that does not interfere with barrel harmonics...

but figured I would ask...


I doubt we'll get that as a matter of course in a production rifle. If you do have one in hand it's a good bet the reamer used was on the last sharpening of its life cycle.

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Originally Posted by Dogger
not deep enough. more engineering details please



Don't guess. Phone Ruger.


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Dogger,

I've talked quite a bit with Mark Gurney, the product manager for Ruger, about the RAR. He said that when the project started, several Ruger people got together and discussed what features they'd like to see that would enhance accuracy but would be easy to manufacture. Many of us are familiar with those features, but Mark pointed out those he considered most pertinent, including the action bedding block, which bypassed the vagaries of "traditional" action bedding; the detachable magazine, which bypassed bedding problems possible with fixed magazines; the 3-lug bolt, which distributes pressure-forces more evenly than a 2-lug bolt; the small ejection port, which stiffens the action; and of course injection-molded stocks. (As it turned out, the first stocks were pretty floppy, which caused problems, though they usually were easily fixed with a round rasp, but within a year or two the stocks were stiffened up, preventing most problems.)

I also asked him about the barrels, not just on RAR's but all Ruger rifles, because through my bore-scope many looked so smooth they might have been lapped. He said no, they don't lap them. Instead that's just the way they come out of Ruger's hammer-forging machine--but he also pointed out that hammer-forging isn't as "automatic" as many shooters believe. First, you have to start with a decent blank, but even then practice at "feeding" the blank through the machine results in better barrels. Ruger's now been hammer-forging their barrels for around 25 years, and as Mark pointed out, their operators are now really good at it.

He did not mention "minimum SAAMI spec on the chamber," but did mention the nut-attached barrels, which are easier and quicker to headspace precisely than the traditional threading of the barrel/action. But the reamers are not minimum to start with, because initial wear would render them useless, which would cost too much money when the goal is an inexpensive rifle.

I had another conversation with Mark after buying an RAR .22 Magnum from a local store, which turned out to be the most consistently accurate .22 Magnum I've ever owned. By "consistently accurate," I mean it shoots just about any kind of ammo reasonably well, not just a 2-3 brands as so many .22 Magnums do--thoigh it also shoots a couple of brands REALLY well. I specifically asked if they were doing anything special with the chamber, and Mark said no. I then noted that an informal survey I'd done on the Campfire resulted in about 3/4 of the respondents saying their RAR shot like mine, but the other quarter said theirs tended to be standard .22 Magnum "picky about ammo." I asked Mark if he has a guess as to why some some RAR .22 magnums were like mine, and others not. He said, "Luck," meaning manufacturing variation.

I've visited Ruger's plant in Arizona and they have some of the most advanced CNC machinery available, but CNC machining itself does not guarantee absolute uniformity. It does, however, make manufacturing reasonably uniform products possible at a quicker rate, and hence less expensively.

What I got out of our conversations, both personal and e-mail, is that Ruger did everything they could in the design stage to bypass the possible accuracy problems of "traditional" 2-lug bolt action rifles, then used state-of-the-art machinery to manufacture RAR's. The rifles will still vary some, just like any other mass-manufactured product, but because of the basic design and very good barrels, they tend to be more accurate than "traditional" bolt-actions--which have basic design features that tend to prevent obtaining the finest accuracy, unless, of course, we "accurize" them.

Among the most interesting aspects of all this to me was that the RAR is essentially a rifle designed by a committee, generally regarded as a bad practice. But evidently it was a good committee, and they worked well together.


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Mule Deer, Very, very interesting. I had not considered the three lug bolt, or the detachable mag, or the nut attachable barrel, but it all makes sense when it comes together. Thank you for the informative post. "Only accurate rifles are interesting"... these inexpensive and accurate rifles are going to put a hurt on traditional blue and walnut Rugers costing twice the price.

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Though they have several lefty models. I keep waiting for a creedmoor and .22 mag lefty.


Dave

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Originally Posted by BigDave39355
Though they have several lefty models. I keep waiting for a creedmoor and .22 mag lefty.



So many of us "lefty's" are waiting for both.....many of us right here on the 24hrcamfire.

Doc

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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Dogger,

I've talked quite a bit with Mark Gurney, the product manager for Ruger, about the RAR. He said that when the project started, several Ruger people got together and discussed what features they'd like to see that would enhance accuracy but would be easy to manufacture. Many of us are familiar with those features, but Mark pointed out those he considered most pertinent, including the action bedding block, which bypassed the vagaries of "traditional" action bedding; the detachable magazine, which bypassed bedding problems possible with fixed magazines; the 3-lug bolt, which distributes pressure-forces more evenly than a 2-lug bolt; the small ejection port, which stiffens the action; and of course injection-molded stocks. (As it turned out, the first stocks were pretty floppy, which caused problems, though they usually were easily fixed with a round rasp, but within a year or two the stocks were stiffened up, preventing most problems.)

I also asked him about the barrels, not just on RAR's but all Ruger rifles, because through my bore-scope many looked so smooth they might have been lapped. He said no, they don't lap them. Instead that's just the way they come out of Ruger's hammer-forging machine--but he also pointed out that hammer-forging isn't as "automatic" as many shooters believe. First, you have to start with a decent blank, but even then practice at "feeding" the blank through the machine results in better barrels. Ruger's now been hammer-forging their barrels for around 25 years, and as Mark pointed out, their operators are now really good at it.

He did not mention "minimum SAAMI spec on the chamber," but did mention the nut-attached barrels, which are easier and quicker to headspace precisely than the traditional threading of the barrel/action. But the reamers are not minimum to start with, because initial wear would render them useless, which would cost too much money when the goal is an inexpensive rifle.

I had another conversation with Mark after buying an RAR .22 Magnum from a local store, which turned out to be the most consistently accurate .22 Magnum I've ever owned. By "consistently accurate," I mean it shoots just about any kind of ammo reasonably well, not just a 2-3 brands as so many .22 Magnums do--thoigh it also shoots a couple of brands REALLY well. I specifically asked if they were doing anything special with the chamber, and Mark said no. I then noted that an informal survey I'd done on the Campfire resulted in about 3/4 of the respondents saying their RAR shot like mine, but the other quarter said theirs tended to be standard .22 Magnum "picky about ammo." I asked Mark if he has a guess as to why some some RAR .22 magnums were like mine, and others not. He said, "Luck," meaning manufacturing variation.

I've visited Ruger's plant in Arizona and they have some of the most advanced CNC machinery available, but CNC machining itself does not guarantee absolute uniformity. It does, however, make manufacturing reasonably uniform products possible at a quicker rate, and hence less expensively.

What I got out of our conversations, both personal and e-mail, is that Ruger did everything they could in the design stage to bypass the possible accuracy problems of "traditional" 2-lug bolt action rifles, then used state-of-the-art machinery to manufacture RAR's. The rifles will still vary some, just like any other mass-manufactured product, but because of the basic design and very good barrels, they tend to be more accurate than "traditional" bolt-actions--which have basic design features that tend to prevent obtaining the finest accuracy, unless, of course, we "accurize" them.

Among the most interesting aspects of all this to me was that the RAR is essentially a rifle designed by a committee, generally regarded as a bad practice. But evidently it was a good committee, and they worked well together.



John I don't know how you find the time to attend this forum the way that you do, but I am infinitely grateful. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Dogger,

I've talked quite a bit with Mark Gurney, the product manager for Ruger, about the RAR. He said that when the project started, several Ruger people got together and discussed what features they'd like to see that would enhance accuracy but would be easy to manufacture. Many of us are familiar with those features, but Mark pointed out those he considered most pertinent, including the action bedding block, which bypassed the vagaries of "traditional" action bedding; the detachable magazine, which bypassed bedding problems possible with fixed magazines; the 3-lug bolt, which distributes pressure-forces more evenly than a 2-lug bolt; the small ejection port, which stiffens the action; and of course injection-molded stocks. (As it turned out, the first stocks were pretty floppy, which caused problems, though they usually were easily fixed with a round rasp, but within a year or two the stocks were stiffened up, preventing most problems.)

I also asked him about the barrels, not just on RAR's but all Ruger rifles, because through my bore-scope many looked so smooth they might have been lapped. He said no, they don't lap them. Instead that's just the way they come out of Ruger's hammer-forging machine--but he also pointed out that hammer-forging isn't as "automatic" as many shooters believe. First, you have to start with a decent blank, but even then practice at "feeding" the blank through the machine results in better barrels. Ruger's now been hammer-forging their barrels for around 25 years, and as Mark pointed out, their operators are now really good at it.

He did not mention "minimum SAAMI spec on the chamber," but did mention the nut-attached barrels, which are easier and quicker to headspace precisely than the traditional threading of the barrel/action. But the reamers are not minimum to start with, because initial wear would render them useless, which would cost too much money when the goal is an inexpensive rifle.

I had another conversation with Mark after buying an RAR .22 Magnum from a local store, which turned out to be the most consistently accurate .22 Magnum I've ever owned. By "consistently accurate," I mean it shoots just about any kind of ammo reasonably well, not just a 2-3 brands as so many .22 Magnums do--thoigh it also shoots a couple of brands REALLY well. I specifically asked if they were doing anything special with the chamber, and Mark said no. I then noted that an informal survey I'd done on the Campfire resulted in about 3/4 of the respondents saying their RAR shot like mine, but the other quarter said theirs tended to be standard .22 Magnum "picky about ammo." I asked Mark if he has a guess as to why some some RAR .22 magnums were like mine, and others not. He said, "Luck," meaning manufacturing variation.

I've visited Ruger's plant in Arizona and they have some of the most advanced CNC machinery available, but CNC machining itself does not guarantee absolute uniformity. It does, however, make manufacturing reasonably uniform products possible at a quicker rate, and hence less expensively.

What I got out of our conversations, both personal and e-mail, is that Ruger did everything they could in the design stage to bypass the possible accuracy problems of "traditional" 2-lug bolt action rifles, then used state-of-the-art machinery to manufacture RAR's. The rifles will still vary some, just like any other mass-manufactured product, but because of the basic design and very good barrels, they tend to be more accurate than "traditional" bolt-actions--which have basic design features that tend to prevent obtaining the finest accuracy, unless, of course, we "accurize" them.

Among the most interesting aspects of all this to me was that the RAR is essentially a rifle designed by a committee, generally regarded as a bad practice. But evidently it was a good committee, and they worked well together.



John I don't know how you find the time to attend this forum the way that you do, but I am infinitely grateful. Thank you.



I agree. A very interesting and informative post. Thanks John!

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No doubt the the RAR and RAR Predator are inexpensive, accurate rifles. I just can't find any comfort with the stock. Some say flimsy, some say not. To me the biggest distraction is the uber slick finish, regardless of the molded in checkering. The thought has crossed my mind to buy one and drop it in a Boyd's AT-ONE stock, which looks interesting at $189 - especially with it's adjustability, and interchangeable grips and forends.


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Spending almost $200 on an aftermarket stock turns a great shooting $400 rifle into a $600 rifle. I like the Rugers quite a bit, but not at $600. The stock wouldn't do a thing to improve accuracy and may well hurt it. If the stock is too slick a paint job with textured finish paint will do the job for $5.

The flimsy stock doesn't hurt a thing because they aren't bedded the same way conventional rifles are. The stock never touches the action. It is bolted to V blocks in the action. This is why I'm leery of fooling with an aftermarket stock. It can't help, and has the potential to make it less accurate. V blocks can be seen in the photos below.

Early rifles forends ends could flex enough to touch the barrel unless given a generous free float. Newer stocks are much stiffer.

Old stock

[Linked Image]

New stock

[Linked Image]


Most people don't really want the truth.

They just want constant reassurance that what they believe is the truth.
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