Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Finn Aagaard - Shots With The .308

This article appeared in Handloader right after Finn's death in April of 2000... I don't know for sure, but it may have been his last written piece.

Fitting that it's about the 308...

Aagaard 's selected works is one of my all time favorite books. Pretty close to number #1.

Thanks for posting. He was very practical in what he used. He would give you a real life opinion.

interesting read thanks for posting

Ed

Thanks Brad, nice to read about common sense.

Again, thanks Brad. That was a great read.

The .308 is a great round.

Great article. I miss his writing!

Thanks, Guy

Awesome! thank you

Good article. Thanks.

Great article. Thanks for posting it up

Thanks Brad
Fine article.

Don't make me reprint the article:

"The 270 Winchester, Every Man's Beltless Magnum" by JOC !



Seriously, thanks Brad, I don't remember reading that. I had quit taking ALL the gun rags before 2000.
Too many had become the S O T (thing).

I always liked and enjoyed reading Mr Finn and miss him and others. I didn't always agre with Mr Elmer but
I found his writing entertaining.

Jerry

[Great read. Thanks for posting.

Interesting timing. I've been looking at the 150 TTSX from my Kimber. My Dad just got back from Africa and shot 8 animals with 9 shots using 165 TSX from his 300 SAUM. They are launched about 2900 from his SAUM. They worked well for him. None of his animals went more than 40 yards, most much less. I've been anti-Barnes since my escapades with the 25 cal TSX but I'm thinking the tipped variety may have solved the issues I experienced.

Our own JB could learn a thing or two.

Partsman,

Yeah, I learned a lot from that article--which I remember reading when my brand-new copy of the magazine it appeared in showed up.

On reading it again this time I learned just how old I'm getting. Finn and I first met 29 years ago, yet it doesn't seem nearly that long. But it also made me remember that taking my first big game animal with the .308 Winchester occurred on opening day of Montana's rifle season in 1967. Yep, half a century ago, which seems impossible....

Elk season of '67... I just turned one!

Thanks for the article Brad. My first big game animal with a rifle was the Federal high energy load with 180 Partitions out of my 308 Win. Now that rifle shoots 155 Scenars into tiny groups. If I were to use the 308 hunting regularly, I'd look hard at the 165 Trophy Bonded Tips or possibly a 150 or 130 TTSX. Really there are countless good possibilities. Federal's load data states just over 2900 using 2000MR with the 165 TBT. That's good elk medicine!

Good read! The .308 is probably going to be my next rifle. It makes the most sense to me.

I always read Aagaard's material as it was worth reading. For the reader wanting to learn something, his writing was never warmed-over stuff that less-imaginative writers had covered many times. After following his published efforts for the twenty or so years he wrote, I was left with the impression that Aagaard had a very modest collection of firearms and most, maybe all, were rather plain but very practical guns. However, I think he used all of them quite a bit, whether for general shooting, hunting, or handloading projects.

That's probably my favorite article. I've been a 308 fan since middle 70's and that article sums up my feelings exactly. I never met Mr. Aagaard, but it was a sad day when I read that he had passed a way.

I've got that magazine in my tub-o-magazines somewhere and have read that piece a number of times. Thanks for saving me the job of digging though the stacks.

Thanks for posting that.

Finn has been gone for a while now, but I re-read his books every year or so. I always come away thinking that he wrote everything that needs to be said about hunting rifles, and that if I find myself too far from what he was thinking, then I'm overlooking something important. His writing wasn't as elegant as O'Connor's or as forceful as Cooper's, but he had at least as much experience as either of them and none of the ego.

Many years ago, I wrote him a letter asking about his experience with the Scout rifle. His reply was printed on a dot-matrix printer. The pages had separated along the perforations, but he taped them together, which got the job done. THAT was Finn Aagaard in a nutshell.


Okie John

Okie: What did Finn say about the Scout rifle? I know he was a friend of Clifton.

My first elk hunt -- Idaho - Nez Pierce Pass area - 308 Rem 600 with K4 Weaver, hand-loaded 180 grain Speer bullets, forget the powder, but probably H4895. Poo hoo'd by the other hunters who said their 7mm RM's could shoot across the canyon. Mine was limited to 100 yards. I think the canyon width was >> 500 yards...

So true!

I took my first big game animal with a .308 in 1997 which I can't believe was 20 years ago already! In '67 I was still 17 years in the making

Aagaard and Cooper admired one another, and Aagaard felt that Cooper was an original thinker who found new solutions to problems by approaching them from new angles. I have no idea about Aagaard's relationship with Clifton except that it was based on respect for his skills as a riflemaker.

I believe that Aagaard was more impressed with the Scout concept than with its execution. In that letter he pointed out that when Cooper built a Scout rifle for his daughter Lindy, it was a pseudo-scout in 30-06 on a 1903 action. And while he kept the Scout rifle that Mr. Clifton sent him, he continued to use short rifles (usually military surplus 98 Mausers with low-powered conventional scopes in Weaver rings/bases and B&C stocks) in 308 and 30-06. I think that if he were alive today, he'd prefer a modern variable with a good 1x low end, I think that he’d consider the Scout a good idea whose time had come and gone because it had been overtaken by newer developments that achieve the same goal with less hassle and expense.

I also think that he'd still be using a milsurp 98 in 30-06 with a steel-tube Weaver 2.5x scope for 99% of his personal hunting. It might be in a McMillan stock, but otherwise it would be identical to the rifles he built in the 1970's.


Okie John

Okie, I really don't think so. Reading Finn starting in the 8o's, through the 90's til' his death, I believe his preference had definitely swung to the lighter recoiling 308 Win.

Sweet, now we are 'arguing' about what a guy, that you didn't know and is16 years dead would/wouldn't use. Fascinating.

I also don't think Finn would choose a .30-06 over the .308. We corresponded some about rifles and cartridges, and I also got to take a look at his book full of loading and hunting notes after he died, thanks to Berit bringing it to a get-together in Texas. One of the many things Finn and I agreed about was the tendency of many hunters to be
"over-gunned," and another part of the agreement was that the .308 would do just about anything the .30-06 would.

My opinion on the subject of the .308/.30-06 question is also based on some experience. I am now down to one .30-06, the NULA Model 24 I've used in quite a few places around the world for 20 years, and its one rifle I'll probably always keep. But my wife Eileen and I own four .308's, and have taken 22 species of big game with them in various countries from northern Canada to southern Africa. We have yet to find the .308 wanting with any of the numerous bullets we've used.

When Finn hunted with us in '97 or so, he mentioned the 25-06 (which I was using at the time) was about perfect for plains game. Well, Montana plains game anyway.

That was before laser rangefinders, so if anything the affordable laser rangefinders of today makes the 308 better than ever, and it wouldn't surprise me if Finn would still use a 308 if he were still around.

FWIW, I had mentioned to Finn how I really wanted to be a sniper. A month or so later, a box arrived with the "Death From Afar" book series within, signed by the authors to Finn. A very nice gift from a very good man.

If Finn had been told the .270 was gay, he would have responded, "How do you know this to be true?'

Ever load a 308 with a 200 grain bullet? What was the result? I recall an interview someone had with WDM Bell where Bell said he thought a 308 would have been great when he hunted Africa. Interesting thought from the guy most associated with the 7x57 Mauser.

Yeah. I have, but it was a while back. Got just under 2500 fps with the 200-grain Speer in a Winchester Model 88. Used Hodgdon's maximum listed load and there wasn't any problem with extraction.


These days there's more 200-grain data for the .308, even though some companies don't provide any at all. Ramshot lists 44.2 grains of TAC as getting 2555 fps with the Sierra MatchKing, and Hodgdon lists 45.3 CFE223 for 2582 fps with the Swift A-Frame. Not many animals on earth that couldn't be hunted with that. But we also haven't has any trouble with anything up to elk-size, either here or in Africa, with 150's.

John, I've got 3 308's and 1 30-06 that's going to get rebarreled. I doubt I'll ever own another 30-06.

In the 308, I'm a 165 gr bullet guy, but I don't use mono's.

Also, it's not hard to get 2,650 with a 180 and several powders from a 22" barrel, though I have yet to see the need for more than a 165 in the 308. My last two bulls, a 6x6 and 7x7, both fell to 165's from my Kimber MT 308.

I agree with the LRF and dots, etc.---- IF you have time to use them.


Secondly, man I am so 'envious' of you in two ways. First for having the opportunity to know Mr. Finn personally

And for having the books - signed by the authors TO Mr. Finn.

S A L U T E'


Jerry

Yeah, meant to comment on your post Billy. Super cool you got to meet Finn and receive such a gift. Nearly everything the man wrote struck a chord with me. But I'm generally a "less is more" kind of person...

these discussions are never good for me... because when you offer the 308 as a baseline rifle, and describe how the Giants used it, and how it gets so much done for so little fuss, i just want to go out and get one, but first i am tempted to ballistic-gack-check it against what I already have, for example a 165 in the 308 against a 160 in my 280... and of course my 280 will push it faster and the 7mm will fly flatter with less wind drift, and then i have pretty much talked myself out of getting a 308. you guys have saved me a ton of money on new rifles, but isn't the whole idea of the campfire exactly the opposite?

The 308 is overlooked and underrated, except by those that have actually used it on a variety of game.

Thanks Jerry, I still feel very fortunate to have had the chance to meet and hunt with Finn!

Agreed on the "time" factor, as well. Sometimes all a guy has time to do (especially with the big, mature animals) is shoot, not fart around with rangefinders and what not!

Thanks, Brad! I agree on Finn's writing; my copy of his "Selected Works" is about worn out.

I was fortunate in being able to take a few days off of school while he was here. We tried to get him on a really tremendous mule deer, but it just wasn't in the cards. Finn decided to take an older 3x3 buck that most guys wouldn't want, in order to help us with a "cull" and still have some good meat. Finn also listened patiently as I showed off my cheap Daisy single pump air rifle, which I was using to compete in 4-H shooting competition. Those examples of kindness made a big impact on a surly teenager, and I still miss the man. Not only for his superb writing, but because he seemed like a truly decent human being.

Well I'm not completely left out.

I have an autographed picture of Charlton Heston from the NRA.
and

I have a signed Nosler # 7 Handloading Manual by our own Mule Deer ( J B ). However I told him I thot his Grandkid scribbled in it. , I am glad to have it.


I've hunted WT for over 40 yrs and 'some' times I've had plenty opportunity to watch and plan shots at both doe's and bucks.

Other times it's a matter of shoot NOW or lose the chance.


Those are the reasons I feel the same as our Dear Departed brother **BobinNH **who said, "I like the long legged cartridges"!!
*edit to add* I'll never forget Bob.

I stated in another thread recently, Flat Trajectory is never a handicap. OTOH .......

Jerry

Jerry,


Jerry, my hunting is almost all in the woods and while I spent plenty of time with the .270 and .30-06 in hand I've mostly been shooting game at 50 yards or even less which has led me back to the cartridges of my youth. Right now I also do not have a hunting trip gun since last November I handed my son my .30-06 . I believe I'm going to remedy that here shortly by investing in a .308 . Already have a Leupold laying around so I'll be good to go.

JB, I have one of your .308 rifles, a Montgomery Wards Heym Mauser which was presented to me by a well known poster here on the Campfire who happens to be a good friend. He gave it to me because I am a fan of yours and it will never leave my possession until I pass. And then I own an old Pre-64 Model 70 that you once owned and needed a bolt after the person you sold it to had the bolt thrown away with the packaging by one of his employees but that's another story. Needless to say, it will never leave my possession either. I had a pristine spare bolt that worked like a charm.

That's pretty cool.

model70man,

Good to hear about the .308 Mauser--and especially about the pre-war Model 70. It's nice to know your bolt worked in it, and that it's still functioning!

Mike, where and the terrain we hunt CAN dictate what we need in the way of rifles/cartridges. I've hunted thickets and wide open places that at times reminded me of the 'plains'. Where I hunt since 2012, I can be in a thicket or stalking open pasture up to 400 yds.

Mostly, I hunt a rifle or cartridge by the MOOD I'm in. I have taken a 7 Mag to a creek bottom thicket - because I wanted to not because I needed it. OTOH it's silly to take a short range round or one having a SOFTBALL trajectory to wide open places. NO inference to the 308.

I have never before put in words what I've said twice this week. A Flat Trajectory is never a Handicap.

Jerry

But on a 50 yard shot that 3,000+ fps cartridge can create a bloodshot mess.

Mike, that depends on 2 things.

Bullet Construction & Bullet Placement.

Jerry

That article brings back some memories. Finn was and is my favorite gun writer by a very slim margin over a couple of the other greats.
What I liked best about his writing is easily summarized by to points he made in this article.
One was about the Kenyathalon and his adamantly refusing to run during the event, and his remarks about nilgai
and bullet placement.The subtle dig on fellow gun writers was priceless.

I'm a bit surprised that his comment toward the end regarding " real hunters" didn't draw some ire.

I too always enjoyed his articles. His sort of function over form attitude about rifles always sort of tickled me. When was the last time you read a article where the writer praised a 1 1/2-2" group as perfectly adequate? Likewise I remember one of his articles where he was sporterizing a military Mauser as a project. Basically he painted the stock with something like bed liner paint and rubbed a handful of sand into the pistol grip and forearm while wet to serve as non slip checking.

bangeye,

I know your question was rhetorical, but the last article I read that said 1-1/2" groups are adequate for general big game hunting appeared in GUNS magazine earlier this year.

Great article, but there are a few rounds that article could pertain to.
308 just had a huge popularity push of being a military round.

If I remember high school correctly, popularity is not always all that it is cracked up to be.

"Many years ago, I wrote him a letter asking about his experience with the Scout rifle. His reply was printed on a dot-matrix printer. The pages had separated along the perforations, but he taped them together, which got the job done. THAT was Finn Aagaard in a nutshell." -- Okie John

I had to laugh. That was so Finn! Brings back memories of when he started using a computer and that old dot matrix printer. He had a frequent hate relationship with that computer, but it made his writing job easier. He had a better way to go from a pencil and yellow pad, via his two finger typing, to an ASCI file for his publisher. Thanks for making me think back.

" Likewise I remember one of his articles where he was sporterizing a military Mauser as a project. Basically he painted the stock with something like bed liner paint and rubbed a handful of sand into the pistol grip and forearm while wet to serve as non slip checking." -- Bangeye

And yes Bangeye, that very rifle, with the sand from Sandy Creek and its stock epoxied back together after a horse broke it in two, was one of the last rifles he had still kept. Interestingly that old .30-06 wore a nice 4X Swarovski scope. Entirely practical, homely, and quite lethal enough for game. It remains the same today. He also still had his Steyr Model 1912, Mauser 98 in .308. Neither had been passed down to family members. They were still his up to the end. While he had taken up with the .308 for his own practical reasons, he never forsook the .30-06.

It is such a shame we don't still have Finn Aagaard around. There is no one quite like him.

Jaguar

So...he didn't forsake the 30-06, humm

Wonder why ? No I don't wonder.


Yes it's a shame that we have to get old and move on.


Jerry

Jaguar
Do you know whatever became of his Brno. 7x57 I may have read at some point but have forgotten. That rifle was featured in so many stories that it was somewhat akin to JOCs 270 or John Wooters Forester.

Bangeye PM sent.

Scenar Shooter would attest to that.

Exactly the decision I made a couple of months ago when I purchased my second Sako 85 Finnlight 308 Winchester. It's the cartridge of my youth as well. I now have four 308's. Two are toys and two are primary hunting platforms.

I have enjoyed playing with a lot of different cartridges over the years, and it's pretty easy for the firearms marketeers to suck me into trying a new cartridge, as long as I like the rifle it's chambered in.

Since I tend to like lighter more svelte rifles, I have owned one or more rifles chambered in 243, 260, 7-08, and 6.5 Creedmoor, and there are currently four 308's in my safe.

We all have different needs, and these other short-action rounds clearly excel in some ways, but I think it would be hard to argue with the point Finn made in the article - "The round sired the .243 Winchester, the .260 and 7mm-08 Remingtons, and the .358 Winchester. While all of them are fine rounds for some applications, none of them can match the versatility of their daddy as a big game cartridge."

W A

I would not argue, ..... buy my choice among those rounds is 7-08 and I've never owned one.
I have HAD 243s, 308, & 358. Here I'm a middle if the roader.

Jerry

WA. I have to agree with you. Funny in all the guntrading my friend and myself have engaged in neither of us had ever landed on a 308. About 10 years ago I bought one just because. I have to admit I really liked it a lot for hunting as well as just shooting it. Relative cheap , easy to load for and powerful enough w/o being too big. Jwall is right the same can be said for the 7-08 but I just like the 308 better for some unexplained reason. I didn't keep mine as I have too many rifles and others with more personal history and that meet my simple deer hunting needs. However if I ever lost everything and had to start over I'd be looking for a 308. Interestingly for as popular chambering as it is. I don't see a lot of used ones around for sale.

+1

BangER & Mike

MY 308 was on the used market in 1989.

In 20yrs I've known 1 guy on TWO deer leases that used A 308. The last lease was -2000 acres &
100 members. The other was not that large in acres or members.
I have a long time friend & hunting pard on a 3rd lease. No one had a 308 there.

IMO they may not be that popular in the S as a hunting round.

No offense intended at all.

Jerry

They seemed to hold their own in North Carolina.

That's kind of funny, because I am an inveterate churner when it comes to rifles, and it seems like 1/4 of the rifles I find and want to buy are chambered in 308 (nearly as frequent as 270).

I have enough 308's, but I just keep finding them

I cannot recall ever seeing a used 308 around here in a gunstore. Either they are not used here much, or nobody trades them in.

It must be a regional thing
.

About 21 years ago I finally found a Sako Bofors steel manlicher stock .308 that I was searching for. It was made around 1967-68. John Wooters had one and I wanted one bad. That little .308 has accounted for Black Bears, Deer and a bunch of hogs. 130 gr TTSX,s and TAC will take care of about any game I hunt for. One of those rifles that I will never sell.

I had a Savage 99 in .308 once. Sold it and went back to my .300's which I like much better.

300 Savage?

Yes, .300 Savage.

Joe, what is it about the 300 Savage that you prefer it over the 308?

Not Joe obviously.

Predict -,nostalgia

Jerry

I hunted with a 308 Win for 90% of everything from age 13 to about 35. Then for the next 8 years I used a much wider array of cartridges which was of course fun.

Recently consolidated my battery and most of those other cartridges are gone now, but there are still two 308s and I do NOT feel like I am underdone!

Me and two mates took 29 feral pigs this week, most were shot with two 308 Winchesters, a Sako A7 in my case and a Tikka CTR owned by one of the boys.

I'm convinced there is no finer pig cartridge. All were one shot kills except some of those which were shot running at great pace, none of whom were able to escape before a finishing shot was delivered.

Great cartridge.

I found it had a sharper report, sharper recoil, and for my use, didn't kill any deader or farther than my .300. Yes, the .308 is easier to find and less expensive but, I prefer the .300. To each his own, they're all good.

Let me see, I have one 300 win mag.
One 30-06
One 7mm rem mag.
One 338-06
One 338 RUM
One 22-250
One 223
One 50 cal smoke pole
A few others @ one each.
-
-
-
- Four rifles that are chambered in .308 Win.

A 308 has always worked great for me.

Yeah, it works pretty well. Last time I looked through my hunting notes, my wife and I had taken 22 species of big game with the .308.

I've got a .308 bolt gun in my cabinet. Haven't shot it in years. Much prefer my .30-30 lever guns for the woods hunting I do here.

The way I look at it is that the '06, loaded to the same pressure, and often even less, will always be capable if out-performong the .308. However, with current powders, the .308 can equal or even exceed standard factory '06 speeds, and really beat the original velocities the '06 made its reputation with way back when, at least with light to middle weight bullets. New bullets help even more. To me, it just makes sense to match the cartridge to the action you're using, or even as in my case, the pile of brass you've got on hand.

and for my use

This is a phrase that some just can't wrap their heads around, insisting on trying to shoehorn everybody into their niche. The most common example is trying to push high BC bullets and giant scopes with twisty knobs to woods hunters that never shoot over 200 yards.

I could see that. I have a Savage 99C in .308 I've only fired in one session years ago and it was frisky although that was with 180 gr bullets. The Savage is a light rifle and on mine, there's a fair amount of drop to the butt stock. I never paid the .300 Savage much interest until recently I was comparing 300 Savage load data to the .308, and while the .308 is a significant step up in velocity, the .300 is more than adequate for the majority of hunting shots taken. It's a dandy cartridge. Of course, one could always load the .308 at .300 Savage levels as an option.