It still doesn't explain why the Fitzgerald didn't make an evasive move. Also is their an international frequency that the crew could have used in an attempt to contact the freighter?
Certainly makes you question the "readiness" of a destroyer that can't evade a 730 ft cargo ship. Might be more "excusable" if they were in a really tight area, but it sounds as if there was plenty of room for evasive maneuvers by the Fitzgerald.
There is an EXCELLENT article in Proceedings, written by a Navy Captain who commanded three cruisers and sailed those seas. Look for the operative words or phrases: "bridge clilmate", CO's standing orders, burden of command, etc.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
"Commercial ship autopilot systems normally require someone to input manually the course for the ship travel. The computer program then steers the ship by controlling the steering gear to turn the rudder.
The system also can be synchronized with an electronic chart system to allow the program to follow courses of a voyage plan."
....
"Private naval analyst Steffan Watkins said the course data indicates the ship was running on autopilot. "The ACX Crystal powered out of the deviation it performed at 1:30, which was likely the impact with the USS Fitzgerald, pushing it off course while trying to free itself from being hung on the bow below the waterline," Watkins told the Free Beacon.
The ship then continued to sail on for another 15 minutes, increasing speed before eventually reducing speed and turning around. "This shows the autopilot was engaged because nobody would power out of an accident with another ship and keep sailing back on course. It’s unthinkable," he added.
Watkins said the fact that the merchant ship hit something and did not radio the coast guard for almost 30 minutes also indicates no one was on the bridge at the time of the collision."
More or less what I said back on the 18th. in this thread:
There is an EXCELLENT article in Proceedings, written by a Navy Captain who commanded three cruisers and sailed those seas. Look for the operative words or phrases: "bridge clilmate", CO's standing orders, burden of command, etc.
My current boss happens to be a retired Navy Commander. He said that the Fitzgerald was the give way vessel in this situation, was required to take evasive action to avoid collision.
There is an EXCELLENT article in Proceedings, written by a Navy Captain who commanded three cruisers and sailed those seas. Look for the operative words or phrases: "bridge clilmate", CO's standing orders, burden of command, etc.
My current boss happens to be a retired Navy Commander. He said that the Fitzgerald was the give way vessel in this situation, was required to take evasive action to avoid collision.
Yep - that's SOP in similar situations..
Ex- USN (SS) '66-'69 Pro-Constitution. LET'S GO BRANDON!!!
There is an EXCELLENT article in Proceedings, written by a Navy Captain who commanded three cruisers and sailed those seas. Look for the operative words or phrases: "bridge clilmate", CO's standing orders, burden of command, etc.
Get me straight on this. The "U" turn made was 25 minutes before the collision?
Looking at the track makes me think something went haywire in the guidance system. If you are below decks and a ship this size turns it is very likely you would not feel it, especially if you are asleep.
Last edited by Armednfree; 06/23/17.
The older I become the more I am convinced that the voice of honor in a man's heart is the voice of GOD.
The answer I think, is somewhere in the issues the author raised: Bridge climate (CO's leadership style) Indecision of the OOD to take action given the verbal and visual clues been fed to him lack of communication on the bridge. Bottom line, if there is doubt, the Officer on watch MUST make the CO aware with sufficient time to make the call. ITS HIS SHIP AND HIS NECK.
To wit: During my last operational deployment (Enduring Freedom) in 2002 on board the JFK (CV 67), we ostensibly turned day into night, in other words almost all our flight ops were conducted after dark so during daylight hours, the CO/XO and most all Department heads slept. As the senior CDR on board and Command Duty Officer (Underway) qualified (and also as Air Officer), I volunteered to stay up and be available for the OOD should an issue arise before calling the Old Man.
We had a CH-53 inbound from the Beach (we were in the Indian Ocean right up against Pakistan with parts) when he declared an emergency about 30 minutes out. The Flight Deck was being "re-spotted" for the evening launch and although the flight deck was pretty much closed, the Landing Area (LA) was open as the E-2C Hawkeyes stayed up into daylight hours and it was about an hour out. I was in the CO's chair on the bridge and the AIr Boss was getting ready to clear the 53 and I objected. What if the 53 lands, [bleep] the bed, clobbers the LA leaving little or no time for a re-spot before the E-2 showed up? At that time E-2s had no in flight refueling and would not have enough fuel to "BINGO" to the beach. So the options were, bet on the come the 53 could land with enough time to move him out of the way, or pitch it over the side, or gamble on the E-2. First words oout of my mouth to the OOD and Flight Deck Control was "CALL THE CAPTAIN". HIS SHIP HIS CALL. Oh, the helo landed but with enough time we were able to shove it far enough to clear the "foul line" and had a "Green Deck" for the E-2. :::SIGH::: now I'm depressed.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
There is an EXCELLENT article in Proceedings, written by a Navy Captain who commanded three cruisers and sailed those seas. Look for the operative words or phrases: "bridge clilmate", CO's standing orders, burden of command, etc.
Sorry for the ignorance as I am at best an amateur sailor - but in those conditions why should one now really care what odd things the commercial ship did? Ours is supposed to be, far and away, the finest navy ever. So, is there any simple and sensible explanation/reason for why our warship could not avoid this bangup?
As an aside, what will be the likely consequences for the Capt. and top crew?
Read what I wrote above or better yet, the link to the article. Several possible causal factors.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Sorry for the ignorance as I am at best an amateur sailor - but in those conditions why should one now really care what odd things the commercial ship did? Our is supposed to be, far and away, the finest navy ever. So, is there any simple and sensible explanation/reason for why our warship could not avoid this bangup?
As an aside, what will be the likely consequences for the Capt. and top crew?
the only real difference between a good tracker and a bad tracker, is observation. all the same data is present for both. The rest, is understanding what you're seeing.
Bigwhoop: Bizarre course of the freighter leading up to the collision with U-turns, circles, stops, back-ups and numerous cousre changes! WTF! Still this collision should NEVER have happened. Massive negligence on the parts of both ship commanders/pilots! Thankfully more people were not killed. Puzzling how this could even possibly have occurred but it DID! Sad. Hold into the wind VarmintGuy
Sorry for the ignorance as I am at best an amateur sailor - but in those conditions why should one now really care what odd things the commercial ship did? Our is supposed to be, far and away, the finest navy ever. So, is there any simple and sensible explanation/reason for why our warship could not avoid this bangup?
As an aside, what will be the likely consequences for the Capt. and top crew?
That's just some horsechit FAKE news,....and has been known as such for a LONG time.
"lol ?"
no,....just phoucin' STUPID.
GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats -- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
Sorry for the ignorance as I am at best an amateur sailor - but in those conditions why should one now really care what odd things the commercial ship did? Our is supposed to be, far and away, the finest navy ever. So, is there any simple and sensible explanation/reason for why our warship could not avoid this bangup?
As an aside, what will be the likely consequences for the Capt. and top crew?
That's just some horsechit FAKE news,....and has been known as such for a LONG time.
"lol ?"
no,....just phoucin' STUPID.
GTC
You're right, I didn't research it. Looks like it was making the rounds since 1996. And lol (laugh out loud) it is funny.
An unemployed Jester, is nobody's Fool.
the only real difference between a good tracker and a bad tracker, is observation. all the same data is present for both. The rest, is understanding what you're seeing.
Get me straight on this. The "U" turn made was 25 minutes before the collision?
Looking at the track makes me think something went haywire in the guidance system. If you are below decks and a ship this size turns it is very likely you would not feel it, especially if you are asleep.
You would feel the radical course changes such as the plot indicated, if you were paying attention at all. A ship heels significantly in a tight turn. There were people on the MV, whose jobs were to pay attention. Even on auto pilot, there is an at sea watch set. If they didn't feel the turns, they probably felt the change in the ride, even on a large vessel. However, nothing that happened on the MV should have any impact on what happened aboard the Fitz. That ship is capable of going anywhere in the world and protecting itself from any kind of threat, and it's expected to...No excuses! Forget what happened on the MV, the issue is what happened aboard Fitz.
Deadlines and commitments, what to leave in, what to leave out...
Get me straight on this. The "U" turn made was 25 minutes before the collision?
Looking at the track makes me think something went haywire in the guidance system. If you are below decks and a ship this size turns it is very likely you would not feel it, especially if you are asleep.
You would feel the radical course changes such as the plot indicated, if you were paying attention at all. A ship heels significantly in a tight turn. There were people on the MV, whose jobs were to pay attention. Even on auto pilot, there is an at sea watch set. If they didn't feel the turns, they probably felt the change in the ride, even on a large vessel. However, nothing that happened on the MV should have any impact on what happened aboard the Fitz. That ship is capable of going anywhere in the world and protecting itself from any kind of threat, and it's expected to...No excuses! Forget what happened on the MV, the issue is what happened aboard Fitz.
While in complete agreement with all you've written there, I'll respectfully state that I'm in agreement with what Jorge wrote days ago, and am not "forgetting" a damned thing about that MV until the entire crew of the thing's had VERY rigorous back round checks run on em'. Everyone from the skipper down to the cabin boy.
Something about this whole deal has STUNK from day one,.......and still DOES.
GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats -- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
The MV was foreign flagged. It also had a foreign crew. There are standards that govern crew qualifications for ships entering US ports, but this ship was in international waters. The standards are whatever the owner of the ship decides they are. A background check on the crew would likely uncover information the employer wouldn't want to know. So they don't ask.
Deadlines and commitments, what to leave in, what to leave out...
Get me straight on this. The "U" turn made was 25 minutes before the collision?
Looking at the track makes me think something went haywire in the guidance system. If you are below decks and a ship this size turns it is very likely you would not feel it, especially if you are asleep.
The first turn from the normal course was the collision. The U turn was almost 30 minutes later.
One shot, one kill........ It saves a lot of ammo!
I think something happened to the Fitz that allowed it to get hit. Just to many things that had to go wrong all at the same time for something like this to happen, unless it was deliberate.
I have this app on my iPhone, it is pretty cool, I can see all the ships in the bay, know where they are going, what country they are from, destination, speed and course, it covers the whole world and the article is right, you can't believe the boat traffic in some places. Ir reports in real time.
Don't know about ships on the ocean, I've fished on the Great Lakes a bunch. Some of our trips are out on open water and in the shipping lanes. It's common knowledge that the freighters are running on autopilot and there's a good chance the pilot house is unoccupied. Not a big deal, they don't turn or stop on a dime...
The AIS tracking data for the Fitzgerald is something that a lot of people would like to see. Not sure if the Navy has released it (or if they will until the investigation is complete ..... and even then .... who knows??).
If you don't know what AIS is, here is some background info:
There is an EXCELLENT article in Proceedings, written by a Navy Captain who commanded three cruisers and sailed those seas. Look for the operative words or phrases: "bridge clilmate", CO's standing orders, burden of command, etc.
There is an EXCELLENT article in Proceedings, written by a Navy Captain who commanded three cruisers and sailed those seas. Look for the operative words or phrases: "bridge clilmate", CO's standing orders, burden of command, etc.
I stood bridge watch on Frigates while deploying as Detachment OIC. The Captain's standing order was to wake him if we came within 10 nm of any surface target. There was no way he was going to forfeit his career over a few hours sleep.
"All that the South has ever desired was that the Union, as established by our forefathers, should be preserved, and that the government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth." – Robert E. Lee
...what will be the likely consequences for the Capt. and top crew?
I'm more of an Army guy, not a sailor.
But, seems to me this wasn't a career builder...
Put another way, the Navy puts you in charge of a billion dollar piece of equipment with crew. On your watch, said billion dollar asset gets T-boned by a huge freighter in open sea, killing 7 of your assigned, major damage to your assigned asset.
Even Army thinking would conclude that was pretty bad...
What gets me is that on that date the moon was 56% illumination that night. They said it was clear. Rise was at 2330 on the 16th and set was 1114 on the 17th. How can your watches not see something the size of a container ship under those conditions?
The older I become the more I am convinced that the voice of honor in a man's heart is the voice of GOD.
Has anyone come across the speeds of the two vessels at the time of the collision? I think I saw the merchant ship was doing 12-14 knots?
Not sure about the Fitzgerald, but it looks like the Crystal was doing 17.3 knots.
See:
Can't find any AIS tracking data for the Fitzgerald. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it wasn't transmitting any AIS data at the time (but that doesn't mean it wouldn't have been able to receive the Crystal's AIS data).
i'm sure one of the swabbies will correct me if i am wrong, but don't they have somebody manning a radar screen or something that should have seen that big fuggen boat way ahead of time?
i'm sure one of the swabbies will correct me if i am wrong, but don't they have somebody manning a radar screen or something that should have seen that big fuggen boat way ahead of time?
The whole crew was preoccupied completing their online "Transgender Empathy " course...
i'm sure one of the swabbies will correct me if i am wrong, but don't they have somebody manning a radar screen or something that should have seen that big fuggen boat way ahead of time?
rem, I chuckled at 300 mags answer . . . sad but true . . . but yes there are plenty of crew and an officer on watch on the bridge with a radar screen showing all surface targets. There has to be something way out of the ordinary going on here.
I remember the USS Belknap Uss Kennedy collision in the Med that led to the court martial of both ship's captains. That was during pre-planned maneuvers, though. They towed the Belknap into Naval Station Rota Spain. I remember driving down to the pier one night, while on guard duty, and seeing that ghost ship, totally dark and eery, while all the other ships were lit up like Christmas trees.
"All that the South has ever desired was that the Union, as established by our forefathers, should be preserved, and that the government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth." – Robert E. Lee
i'm sure one of the swabbies will correct me if i am wrong, but don't they have somebody manning a radar screen or something that should have seen that big fuggen boat way ahead of time?
rem, I chuckled at 300 mags answer . . . sad but true . . . but yes there are plenty of crew and an officer on watch on the bridge with a radar screen showing all surface targets. There has to be something way out of the ordinary going on here.
I remember the USS Belknap Uss Kennedy collision in the Med that led to the court martial of both ship's captains. That was during pre-planned maneuvers, though. They towed the Belknap into Naval Station Rota Spain. I remember driving down to the pier one night, while on guard duty, and seeing that ghost ship, totally dark and eery, while all the other ships were lit up like Christmas trees.
My recollection is that the formation was in the process of doing some maneuver to port and the OOD misjudged the distance to the carrier and just got way ahead of himself.
Belknap was executing a Corpen port turn to maintain position on the Kennedy which had gone to flight quarters to recover. Belknap was approximately 1500 to 2000 yards starboard beam to the Kennedy when the Officer of the Deck (a Ltjg - 02) order a full left rudder, into the Kennedy. The Kennedy, at flight quarters (during hours of darkness) had turned on their red recovery lighting, so they were not visible to the inexperienced (maneuvering with carriers) bridge team. The Captain of the Belknap was not n the bridge, and was acquitted of all charges during his court martial, as was the captain of the Kennedy. The Belknap Captain did receive a Letter of Reprimand for failing to adequately train his bridge watch team in proper seamanship maneuvering with a carrier. Eight fatalities.
"All that the South has ever desired was that the Union, as established by our forefathers, should be preserved, and that the government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth." – Robert E. Lee
[bleep] happens, but with today's technology's this kid of [bleep] shouldn't ever happen... I've brought up a few Navy collisions in the past in threads here, but the Hum-Dinger is that that took place right close by here in California at Point Honda!
The following are excerpts from the June 27, 2017 Yokosuka, Japan memorial service for seven sailors who died aboard USS Fitzgerald on June 17, 2017. Speaking are Adm. Scott Swift, commander U.S. Pacific Fleet and Vice Adm. Joseph Aucoin, commander U.S. 7th Fleet.
Music washes away the dust of everyday life Some people wait a lifetime to meet their favorite hunting and shooting buddy. Mine calls me dad
Pure and simple, the cause was negligence by both parties. The captains' careers are toast in both instances. May not directly be their fault in either case, but it's their responsibility.
US sailors will be punished for USS Fitzgerald collision By Reuters August 17, 2017 | 6:40pm Modal Trigger US sailors will be punished for USS Fitzgerald collision
WASHINGTON – About a dozen U.S. sailors are expected to face punishment for a collision in June between the USS Fitzgerald and a Philippine cargo ship, including the warship’s commander officer and other senior leaders of the ship, the Navy said on Thursday.
USS Fitzgerald crew made 'slew' of mistakes before deadly crash: report Admiral Bill Moran, deputy chief of naval operations, told reporters that the ship’s commanding officer, executive officer and master chief, would be removed from the vessel because “we’ve lost trust and confidence in their ability to lead.”
Moran said that in total close to a dozen sailors would face punishment without detailing the exact punishment. (Reporting by Idrees Ali; Editing by Sandra Maler)
US sailors will be punished for USS Fitzgerald collision By Reuters August 17, 2017 | 6:40pm Modal Trigger US sailors will be punished for USS Fitzgerald collision
WASHINGTON – About a dozen U.S. sailors are expected to face punishment for a collision in June between the USS Fitzgerald and a Philippine cargo ship, including the warship’s commander officer and other senior leaders of the ship, the Navy said on Thursday.
USS Fitzgerald crew made 'slew' of mistakes before deadly crash:
YaTHINK?? As most of us said from the get-go....
Although part of the crew punished might be the lookouts, it's more than possible that they dutifully informed the watch officer of the ship and that officer either hesitated to act, ignored the contact's bearing or was simply sleeping on the job...
I recall an op we were doing out at sea with a plane that was supposed to 'sneak' up on us while on the surface. Once spotted by the lookouts we were to dive as fast as possible and timed to see how quickly we got to periscope depth.. Nathan Hall spotted the plane and relayed the contact and position to the OOW who then called down to the OOD in the conning tower and asked if we should now dive...!!!!!!! Of course that delayed the dive by about 10+ seconds - and guess who got reamed by the Capt? Why, Hall, of course...
Ex- USN (SS) '66-'69 Pro-Constitution. LET'S GO BRANDON!!!
"Although part of the crew punished might be the lookouts, it's more than possible that they dutifully informed the watch officer of the ship and that officer either hesitated to act"
That "should" all be recorded in the Ship's Log.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
"Although part of the crew punished might be the lookouts, it's more than possible that they dutifully informed the watch officer of the ship and that officer either hesitated to act"
That "should" all be recorded in the Ship's Log.
As a an author friend says, "The log is a good place to start". Accenting the "should" and the "start".
There is an EXCELLENT article in Proceedings, written by a Navy Captain who commanded three cruisers and sailed those seas. Look for the operative words or phrases: "bridge clilmate", CO's standing orders, burden of command, etc.
Excellent and well written explanation of command structure and environment at sea. A ship's captain can not be on the bridge 24/7 and needs to sleep, eat and unwind. A tremendous level of responsibility is placed in the hands of young and junior people; this is what makes them great leaders - the responsibility and discipline. Unfortunately a single screw-up damages careers and endangers lives.
Yes but it is the Commanding Officer who in his judgment, grants the CDO Underway status to his subordinates. That is why it doesn't matter if he's in the crapper giving birth to a democrat, the fault will always lie with the CO>
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Yes but it is the Commanding Officer who in his judgment, grants the CDO Underway status to his subordinates. That is why it doesn't matter if he's in the crapper giving birth to a democrat, the fault will always lie with the CO>
Aircraft commanders and ship captains are held responsible for everything under their command period. Too bad politicians aren't held to such a standard.
The Karma bus always has an empty seat when it comes around.- High Brass
There's battle lines being drawn Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
![[Linked Image]](http://a4.mzstatic.com/us/r30/Purple111/v4/86/8d/6d/868d6d02-7a8c-f009-a410-193181e0e814/screen696x696.jpeg)
![[Linked Image]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/AIS_map_of_MV_ACX_Crystal_2017-06-16_detail.png)
Unless it's a submarine, then it's just like airplanes with the canopy spray painted black.
![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/ZCL8Ws2r/JohnGult.jpg)
