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Originally Posted by shaman

My question is for those who are experienced with the Barnes offerings: Exactly what improvements would we expect if we went to Barnes? How much deader would the deer be?

For me, there is the matter of quality-of-deadness. Since I am a semi-public individual who writes frequently of my exploits, I need a special something that the Barnes product just does not have. I covered this back in 2009:


I'd wonder if copper is all that more environmentally friendly than lead.


This is a wholly ignorant post . From someone who's never killed a deer with them.

I can state from direct personal experience that at least two deer I have killed would have been 100% deader had I used Barnes bullets on them. The first, was when I was much younger and the only Barnes available were copper tubing jacketed bullets that I found lacking in accuracy. I shot the deer quartering away. 30-06 180 grain Core-Lokt.. Borrowed rifle. Hit on a rib at about the diaphragm. The bullet slid around under the hide and stopped under the hide in front of the opposite shoulder. Tore up a little muscle on the onside shoulder. The deer would have survived with little problem barring infection or my second shot. It never entered the chest or abdomen. The second was a wounded fawn about 10-12 years ago. Same shot angle. 30-30 with a Hornady LeverEvolution 160 grain. Deflected off the rib and went up through the back strap. Never entered the body. Slid up under the hide. I my years of hunting I have seen deer hit with cup and core bullets that deflected a pretty fair number of times and some, at startling angles. Of the ones that required a second shot (or more) I cannot speculate how many would have not have been dead enough because of the cup and core but I have not seen one shot yet with a Barnes I have loaded that needed a second dose with the exception of a couple-three that were just plain terrible shots. I have seen cup and cores hit the right spot and "blow up", fragment or otherwise fail to penetrate

I have seen a number of cup and core bullets manage surprising deflection off bone. I have never seen a Barnes deflec enough to notet out of a little over 100 that includes caliber from .224 to .451 and velocities from 1000 FPS to almost 3600. Ranges from 25 feet to almost 300 yards. Never have seen any evidence of deconstruction of a Barnes hitting a deer. Never seen any evidence of failure to expand.. That includes original X bullets, XLCs, TSXs, T-EZs and TTSXs. I have used a couple other ML coppers and E-Tips and GMX, but have only killed a single deer with each of them as far as I remember. They have been the most consistent performing bullets of any I have loaded since I started in 1956. The penetration has always amazed me that it is so uniformly straight line. Deflection has been very small when noticeable, and that includes putting a light for caliber bullet through 8 or so inches of bone. The worst I can say I have seen is a 300 WM caused an XLC to shed a petal after going through the teeth on one at 25 feet. The rest of the bullet went through the atlas and brain stem. I have no idea when t shed the petal.

Today's copper bullets are far and away the best I have ever had available for loading. They are very accurate and have never misbehaved in any way for me. I seriously doubt most people would spend more than the price of a 12 pack on using them in a given year. I might spend $30-$60 tuning a load for the average rifle in order to get the load and a box of ammo. Out of some more than fifty rifles I have loaded them for I had a PH 30-06 that fouled with them so badly t took me 4 boxes and some Ultra Bore Coat to get right and a 25-06 that I have half a dozen boxes into trying to get a 100 grain TSX/TTSX load for and still have not succeeded.

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Originally Posted by 1minute
My 45-70 and its 405 grain cup n core will likely end to end a deer or elk. Not something I would consciously do though.

This type of discussion is akin to my need of a Ford 350 crew cab long bed diesel pickup to get to the office.


I use a 436 grain LBT....for deer....

I tend to use slightly heavy cup-n-core bullets in non-magnum rifles, the .308 being my most-often used cartridge.

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To add 2 cents worth, I hate bullets that blow to pieces on any big game animal. As a guide for well over 40 years, I can tell you that every "horror story" I have to tell is involving bad marksmanship and/or bad bullets for the game shot. In many cases it was a case of both at the same time.

But the most common American big game is deer. From White Tails of N.Carolina to Mule Deer of northern Nevada there are some big differences in the size of deer, but they are still deer. I remember seeing an article on the American Rifleman back in the late 60s or early 70s saying that of all
big game killed in the USA that 97% were deer. I have no reason to doubt that's still true.

You don't need "elk bullets" to kill deer.

But the other side of that coin is that elk bullet kill deer too. They just cost more.

In fact, I can assure all readers that you don't NEED super bullets to kill elk either. The cool think about "super bullets' is that they make lighter rifles and calibers kill bigger game batter today than the combinations that were available 40 years ago. In my teens I may not have thought much or using a 257 Roberts or 25-06 on elk, but today I have no problem with them if the bullets are good enough. Such bullets were not common in the 1960s or70s and in many cases were not available at all.

There are few brands and some specific bullets within some brands that are not so good, and some that are so bad I would not take a truck load of them for free if I had to use them on game. But as a rule, what worked in the 1930s works now too.

My understanding is that Remington has gone to thinner jackets on many of their "Core-Lokt" bullets. I hope that's not correct.
(Mule Deer....do you have info on this for us?)

The old Remington CLs from the 60s and 70s were outstanding, in the examples I have used. However I have used their 100 grain 257 10 years ago and found it to be nothing more than a varmint bullets with extremely poor penetration on Antelope does.

Remington really dropped the ball when they stopped selling all their bullets on the hand-loaders market in my opinion. Here is a picture of a 150 grain 270 CL bullet purchased about 1972 next to a new 8MM 200 grain Speer bullet. As you can see the old CL has about 1/2 of it's diameter from jacket and 1/2 from core. In my opinion, all big game bullets should have thick jackets on their shanks with the ogive being drawn thinner and thinner towards the nose.
[Linked Image]PA130001 by Steve Zihn, on Flickr

I can say the same for Winchester. I have had excellent results with WW Power Points, but my complaint is that they don't sell all they make except in loaded ammo. In fact, they sell very few.

Most "big game" bullets made by most companies today are made for deer, which comprises about 97% of the "big game" shot every year. There are some that absolutely suck, but many or most are just fine for deer. A huge Nevada Mule Deer is still only the size of yearling elk and a record size deer is the size of a 2 year old cow elk. I believe many hunters over think this issue.

In my experience I have found that a 30 caliber 150 grain bullet at full expansion will often not exit an elk. Too much frontal area and not enough weight to get through 100% of the time. BUT I can also say that 2 seasons ago I, my wife and 2 friends used WW Power point 150 grain bullets on elk and we recovered 3 bullets, 2 of which broke big bones. The worst one still weighs 123 grains, next is a 129 grain and the best weighs 133 grains. Friends, that's as good as a Nosler Partition.
The only thing that would have been better is if I had the 180 grain bullets instead (long story, but the bottom line is we ended up needing the "back up rifle" which was a Mossberg MVP in 308, and the ammo in it was loaded with WW Power Point 150 grains bullets, so that what we all used.) Some bullets exited, so didn't, but I am sure all worked very well.

Last year I killed a bull with 8MM Hornady 170 Gr SSTs. They were OK, but neither one exited the bull and neither one penetrated as well as I'd like. Here is a pic of both bullets cut from the elk. I would have been delighted with them on deer, but they are not what I'd call a perfect elk bullet.
[Linked Image]PA110001 by Steve Zihn, on Flickr
Next time I take the 8MM out for elk it's going to have 200 grain Nosler Partitions in it. But the one that came un-glued still went 24" deep. That's going to do all we'd need on deer, and in my rifle they are freakishly accurate. I would not hesitate to use them again on deer and antelope.

Anyway, what I think is the most valuable tool for the hunter today is what is in front of you. The internet. LOTS of BS on it, but also lots of hunters with lots of different experience, and most of them are willing to tell you details if you simply ask.

I have spent 53 years of my life learning what works well, what works "just ok" and what doesn't work well. I have hunted in many places and killed many different kinds of game at many ranges with many guns and many bullets, and all that info is free to any who just ask for it, costing you nothing but the few minutes to ask.

The age of the internet allows a 16 year old hunter to gain a lot of knowledge in 2-3 days that many of us took 40-50 years to learn. Use it. Ask!

I am sure I am not the only one here that agrees on this point. Mule Deer is a wonderful source of info too, as are several members here and on other sites.

Remember...... A Normal person will learn from their mistakes, but a wise person learns from the mistakes of others.
You don't need to make those mistakes yourself. You have an advantage today that was never available in history.

Fools will not learn at all.
We are happy to tell you from our own mistakes


Last edited by szihn; 07/02/17.
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Good post. I can say I've learned a lot on this site over the years and am very thankful for everybody who takes the time to share their experience.


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[/quote]
Originally Posted by szihn
To add 2 cents worth, I hate bullets that blow to pieces on any big game animal. As a guide for well over 40 years, I can tell you that every "horror story" I have to tell is involving bad marksmanship and/or bad bullets for the game shot. In many cases it was a case of both at the same time.

But the most common American big game is deer. From White Tails of N.Carolina to Mule Deer of northern Nevada there are some big differences in the size of deer, but they are still deer. I remember seeing an article on the American Rifleman back in the late 60s or early 70s saying that of all
big game killed in the USA that 97% were deer. I have no reason to doubt that's still true.

You don't need "elk bullets" to kill deer.

But the other side of that coin is that elk bullet kill deer too. They just cost more.

In fact, I can assure all readers that you don't NEED super bullets to kill elk either. The cool think about "super bullets' is that they make lighter rifles and calibers kill bigger game batter today than the combinations that were available 40 years ago. In my teens I may not have thought much or using a 257 Roberts or 25-06 on elk, but today I have no problem with them if the bullets are good enough. Such bullets were not common in the 1960s or70s and in many cases were not available at all.

There are few brands and some specific bullets within some brands that are not so good, and some that are so bad I would not take a truck load of them for free if I had to use them on game. But as a rule, what worked in the 1930s works now too.

My understanding is that Remington has gone to thinner jackets on many of their "Core-Lokt" bullets. I hope that's not correct.
(Mule Deer....do you have info on this for us?)

The old Remington CLs from the 60s and 70s were outstanding, in the examples I have used. However I have used their 100 grain 257 10 years ago and found it to be nothing more than a varmint bullets with extremely poor penetration on Antelope does.

Remington really dropped the ball when they stopped selling all their bullets on the hand-loaders market in my opinion. Here is a picture of a 150 grain 270 CL bullet purchased about 1972 next to a new 8MM 200 grain Speer bullet. As you can see the old CL has about 1/2 of it's diameter from jacket and 1/2 from core. In my opinion, all big game bullets should have thick jackets on their shanks with the ogive being drawn thinner and thinner towards the nose.
[Linked Image]PA130001 by Steve Zihn, on Flickr

I can say the same for Winchester. I have had excellent results with WW Power Points, but my complaint is that they don't sell all they make except in loaded ammo. In fact, they sell very few.

Most "big game" bullets made by most companies today are made for deer, which comprises about 97% of the "big game" shot every year. There are some that absolutely suck, but many or most are just fine for deer. A huge Nevada Mule Deer is still only the size of yearling elk and a record size deer is the size of a 2 year old cow elk. I believe many hunters over think this issue.

In my experience I have found that a 30 caliber 150 grain bullet at full expansion will often not exit an elk. Too much frontal area and not enough weight to get through 100% of the time. BUT I can also say that 2 seasons ago I, my wife and 2 friends used WW Power point 150 grain bullets on elk and we recovered 3 bullets, 2 of which broke big bones. The worst one still weighs 123 grains, next is a 129 grain and the best weighs 133 grains. Friends, that's as good as a Nosler Partition.
The only thing that would have been better is if I had the 180 grain bullets instead (long story, but the bottom line is we ended up needing the "back up rifle" which was a Mossberg MVP in 308, and the ammo in it was loaded with WW Power Point 150 grains bullets, so that what we all used.) Some bullets exited, so didn't, but I am sure all worked very well.

Last year I killed a bull with 8MM Hornady 170 Gr SSTs. They were OK, but neither one exited the bull and neither one penetrated as well as I'd like. Here is a pic of both bullets cut from the elk. I would have been delighted with them on deer, but they are not what I'd call a perfect elk bullet.
[Linked Image]PA110001 by Steve Zihn, on Flickr
Next time I take the 8MM out for elk it's going to have 200 grain Nosler Partitions in it. But the one that came un-glued still went 24" deep. That's going to do all we'd need on deer, and in my rifle they are freakishly accurate. I would not hesitate to use them again on deer and antelope.

Anyway, what I think is the most valuable tool for the hunter today is what is in front of you. The internet. LOTS of BS on it, but also lots of hunters with lots of different experience, and most of them are willing to tell you details if you simply ask.

I have spent 53 years of my life learning what works well, what works "just ok" and what doesn't work well. I have hunted in many places and killed many different kinds of game at many ranges with many guns and many bullets, and all that info is free to any who just ask for it, costing you nothing but the few minutes to ask.

The age of the internet allows a 16 year old hunter to gain a lot of knowledge in 2-3 days that many of us took 40-50 years to learn. Use it. Ask!

I am sure I am not the only one here that agrees on this point. Mule Deer is a wonderful source of info too, as are several members here and on other sites.

Remember...... A Normal person will learn from their mistakes, but a wise person learns from the mistakes of others.
You don't need to make those mistakes yourself. You have an advantage today that was never available in history.

Fools will not learn at all.
We are happy to tell you from our own mistakes


Excellent post!

Last edited by Arns9; 07/02/17.

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Thanks ARNS9

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I use Nosler Ballistic Tips on the small to medium sized central Texas deer, and I used them on the much larger Louisiana deer. It's all the bullet I need, and I've used it at least 100 deer. Used the old Nosler SBBT prior to that and killed about as many with it in my 270. If I thought I needed a better bullet, I'd switch. Also, I never had any problems with the first generation Ballistic Tips.

Extremely good accuracy with the Ballistic Tip is normal.

I get pass thru on deer most every time (I'm a lung shooter), though a big hog will stop 100 grainers in my 260. I get more pig exits with the 120 grainer in the 260, and usually exits with the 130 grainer in the 270. Obviously, shot placement is important.

I can't argue that the Accubond isn't a better bullet. It may well be, but I'm doing just fine with the Ballistic Tip.

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There is nothing wrong with using a good premium bullet on deer. Things don't always go like we want when hunting and shooting. There is also nothing wrong with having a bullet exit. 2 holes is a good thing if you want to find what you shoot.

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Originally Posted by szihn


The age of the internet allows a 16 year old hunter to gain a lot of knowledge in 2-3 days that many of us took 40-50 years to learn. Use it. Ask!

I am sure I am not the only one here that agrees on this point. Mule Deer is a wonderful source of info too, as are several members here and on other sites.

Remember...... A Normal person will learn from their mistakes, but a wise person learns from the mistakes of others.
You don't need to make those mistakes yourself. You have an advantage today that was never available in history.

Fools will not learn at all.
We are happy to tell you from our own mistakes



Ye, Mule Deer is a great source of information. With respect to that, and your opinions expressed on the "Berger bullets" thread, why don't you ask him his opinion of them for killing elk?



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Originally Posted by Mjduct
Sold!!! Can yo make me one avatar sized just the TX heart shot bullseye smile if that's all that fits


That's awesome!

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Originally Posted by MILES58
Originally Posted by shaman

My question is for those who are experienced with the Barnes offerings: Exactly what improvements would we expect if we went to Barnes? How much deader would the deer be?

For me, there is the matter of quality-of-deadness. Since I am a semi-public individual who writes frequently of my exploits, I need a special something that the Barnes product just does not have. I covered this back in 2009:


I'd wonder if copper is all that more environmentally friendly than lead.


This is a wholly ignorant post . From someone who's never killed a deer with them.





I think you've hit the nail on the head there, pardner. I'm wholly lacking in any experience with Barnes products. Somehow the deer seem to fall over dead at our camp in spite of that deficiency, and I'm wondering what I'm missing.


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So "Exactly what improvements would we expect if we went to Barnes? How much deader would the deer be?

For me, there is the matter of quality-of-deadness"


I am curious to hear the answer to this as well. Not a knock on the TSX, just curious how they kill a deer deader than say an Interlock?

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Every bullet manufacturer for the past 60 years has compared their best bullets to a Nosler partition for good reason.


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Originally Posted by JGRaider
Every bullet manufacturer for the past 60 years has compared their best bullets to a Nosler partition for good reason.


Amen to that!

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for killing deer with smaller head stamps like 6.8spc and 5.56 I see an advantage to punching through the shoulders with barnes bullets and they work great... I reload for both of these cartridges and I kill deer with them. The biggest 10 point of my life's head is just over my computer as I type, shot once in the shoulder with a 62 grain TSX, dime sized hole coming out and he ran about 25 yards. I killed him with a Colt 6720. When you get to 243/257 power levels I just don't see a need for solid copper slugs unless you eat shoulders or neck. Of course I have not shot many deer over the last 40 or so years.. smile


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What the should the ballistics be for a 130 grain Barnes 308 load? Need to sight in my 308, thinking 2"high at 100 should put me head on at 250yds?

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[Linked Image]PA130001 by Steve Zihn, on Flickr

Originally Posted by szihn
The old Remington CLs from the 60s and 70s were outstanding, in the examples I have used. However I have used their 100 grain 257 10 years ago and found it to be nothing more than a varmint bullets with extremely poor penetration on Antelope does.

Remington really dropped the ball when they stopped selling all their bullets on the hand-loaders market in my opinion. Here is a picture of a 150 grain 270 CL bullet purchased about 1972 next to a new 8MM 200 grain Speer bullet. As you can see the old CL has about 1/2 of it's diameter from jacket and 1/2 from core. In my opinion, all big game bullets should have thick jackets on their shanks with the ogive being drawn thinner and thinner towards the nose.


I'm curious if the lead core of those two bullets are of equal hardness/toughness. If, for instance, the Speer has a tougher lead core, then that could compensate to a degree for a thinner jacket.

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Originally Posted by JGRaider
Every bullet manufacturer for the past 60 years has compared their best bullets to a Nosler partition for good reason.


Which bullet would you think most closely emulates or duplicates the Partition?


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Originally Posted by Reloder28
Originally Posted by JGRaider
Every bullet manufacturer for the past 60 years has compared their best bullets to a Nosler partition for good reason.


Which bullet would you think most closely emulates or duplicates the Partition?


Not JG, but from the animals and cartridges I've used the Accubond is just a little sleeker Partition. They will get stuck in the far side a little more but they expand a little wider too. I pick whichever shoots best in my rifle. They are both staples for me.


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I'm ready for Zombie deer.

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