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Drew another NV bull tag, I'm using a Kimber 84 in 280 Ackley. The Berger 140 VLDs are grouping well, I'm just not sure if this is a heavy enough bullet.

Anybody use these on elk? Thanks in advance!


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I'd see how well it shot 160 gr. Accubond and 160 gr. Partition.

Others will have their opinions, but those two bullets have stood the test of time on such critters.

Here's what JGRaider did in Africa with 160 NAB's out of a Tikka 7RM. The .280AI is pretty close to the 7RM. IIRC, JG used the NAB because it shot better in his gun than the NPT. I have guns that like the NPT, others that like the NAB.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/8855404/1

I'd see which one shoots better in your gun, go with it.

IMO.

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The Bergers are... not good. Lots of bullet failures. They're trying to reinvent the wheel by using match/tactical bullet designs for hunting to appeal to the tacticool long range crowd, and it may be selling bullets but the wheel didn't need reinventing.

Partitions, Accubonds, or A-frames. 160-175 grains. Pay attention to manufacturer minimum velocities - the Accubond and Partition will have more reach than the A-Frame depending on how fast your 280AI will drive them.

Last edited by Llama_Bob; 07/10/17.
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Have killed several elk with the Bergers. Kills them dead. Most were cows within 100 yards.

With that said..... I would go with the above mentioned Partitions or Accubonds. I gave 140 gr Accubonds a second chance last year and results were most impressive on the big brown critters.

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Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
The Bergers are... not good. Lots of bullet failures. They're trying to reinvent the wheel by using match/tactical bullet designs for hunting to appeal to the tacticool long range crowd, and it may be selling bullets but the wheel didn't need reinventing.




How many elk have you shot with Bergers?



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Originally Posted by smokepole
Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
The Bergers are... not good. Lots of bullet failures. They're trying to reinvent the wheel by using match/tactical bullet designs for hunting to appeal to the tacticool long range crowd, and it may be selling bullets but the wheel didn't need reinventing.




How many elk have you shot with Bergers?


Zero. My advice is based on the discussions going on with various Colorado elk outfitters, who have had uniformly bad experiences. Given that I will never touch the things. Their motto should be

Berger - every bullet a failure!

A fragmenting FMJ is simply not a suitable bullet for game where you need substantial penetration to ensure an exit wound.

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That's a crock, bob. All of it.



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If you say so. Oh wait, no it's not - it's the truth. Full metal jacket bullets are not recommended for big game hunting for a very good reason. Either they don't expand at all, or they fall apart.

There's a very good reason bonded/partitioned soft points are recommended for big game.

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Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
Originally Posted by smokepole
Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
The Bergers are... not good. Lots of bullet failures. They're trying to reinvent the wheel by using match/tactical bullet designs for hunting to appeal to the tacticool long range crowd, and it may be selling bullets but the wheel didn't need reinventing.




How many elk have you shot with Bergers?


Zero. My advice is based on the discussions going on with various Colorado elk outfitters, who have had uniformly bad experiences. Given that I will never touch the things. Their motto should be

Berger - every bullet a failure!

A fragmenting FMJ is simply not a suitable bullet for game where you need substantial penetration to ensure an exit wound.



Bob, first of all, your entire premise is incorrect.

You don't need an exit wound to kill an elk. You may want one, but to say it's needed is a fallacy.

How's that for starters?



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Yup, I agree with many others here. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Partitions, Accu-bonds, Barnes X, Hornady GMX and Inner-Bonds.

I recommend against the Burgers. As a guide for over 40 years and a friend to LOTS of hunters (I am a well known gunsmith in Wyoming) I have seen waaaaaay too many Burgers blow apart. In fact, I have yet to see anything from an antelope up shot with a Burger that didn't have the bullet blow up and penetrate poorly.

Will they kill elk?
Yes.

But just about every other bullet you can buy is better and most are way better.
I would look hard at the 160 grain Nosler Partition if I were you.



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Are scenars any good for elk?

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Obviouly no good, they're an "FMJ target bullet." No one who knows how to kill elk would have their name associated with "Scenar."



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Dammit.

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Sorry, did I spook the hole?



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Originally Posted by smokepole

You don't need an exit wound to kill an elk. You may want one, but to say it's needed is a fallacy.

How's that for starters?


What you need an exit wound for is to track the elk. And why would I use a Berger that fails every time when I can use an A-Frame that works every time?

Small bore FMJs are not hunting bullets no matter how much the kiddies wish otherwise.


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Originally Posted by szihn
Yup, I agree with many others here. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Partitions, Accu-bonds, Barnes X, Hornady GMX and Inner-Bonds.

I recommend against the Burgers. As a guide for over 40 years and a friend to LOTS of hunters (I am a well known gunsmith in Wyoming) I have seen waaaaaay too many Burgers blow apart. In fact, I have yet to see anything from an antelope up shot with a Burger that didn't have the bullet blow up and penetrate poorly.

Will they kill elk?
Yes.

But just about every other bullet you can buy is better and most are way better.
I would look hard at the 160 grain Nosler Partition if I were you.




This is just hunting 101 of course, but we've got some serious clowns here so I'm sure they'll explain how all the latest tacticool bullets are totally rad for hunting elk man.

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Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
Originally Posted by smokepole

You don't need an exit wound to kill an elk. You may want one, but to say it's needed is a fallacy.

How's that for starters?


What you need an exit wound for is to track the elk. And why would I use a Berger that fails every time when I can use an A-Frame that works every time.

Small bore FMJs are not hunting bullets no matter how much the kiddies wish otherwise.



You're an idiot.



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Originally Posted by smokepole
Obviouly no good, they're an "FMJ target bullet." No one who knows how to kill elk would have their name associated with "Scenar."


Who will be the first to swallow this hook?

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Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
If you say so. Oh wait, no it's not - it's the truth. Full metal jacket bullets are not recommended for big game hunting for a very good reason. Either they don't expand at all, or they fall apart.

There's a very good reason bonded/partitioned soft points are recommended for big game.


The VLD is not a FMJ bullet. It's an open-tip match bullet that is designed to perform much different from bonded, mono, and other controlled-expansion bullets. To call a fragmenting VLD a bullet failure is humorous. They are designed to fragment after pencilling through a few inches. It's a totally different wounding mechanism than what you would expect from a TTSX or a Partition, but to say it doesn't work well is ignorant. It works perfectly fine when used appropriately. Shot placement and shot angles are more critical with VLD-type terminal performance, but when proper angles and placement are used, quicker kills are more typical than what you'd get with controlled-expansion performance.

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When a bullet produces no exit wound (and in fact has no mechanism to produce one unless it fails to expand) that's a failure. Less blood loss, so you get animals going much further, and no blood to track so you're much less likely to figure out where they went.

Berger's "hunting" bullets are designed to fail. That's why no one reputable recommends them for any animal larger than a varmint. The various premium lead core bullets, or copper if required by law, perform FAR better. The Accubond and Partition in heavy-for-caliber weights are consistently recommended because they work.

Last edited by Llama_Bob; 07/10/17.
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