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Originally Posted by bellydeep
300 WBY is the best elk cartridge around. Even Coyote Hunter know it.


It's a good choice. Best? Not as far as I'm concerned. YMMV.


Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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IMO, It's not what cartridge is better, In many ways it boils down to what caliber do YOU like. I've like the 338WM for years, I've had one since the late 70's and used it a lot. It's never failed me. I like the 250 grain partition and have a lot of confidence in it. I still have 2 of them. If that doesn't work for me, there is always my 375 H&H. If I want to go light I have some 30-06's. People like cartridges for all kinds of reasons. Energy, penetration, or bullet has nothing to do with what you like any more than it does with women.


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Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
Originally Posted by smokepole
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
The "more interesting questions" appear to elude you as well.


They've eluded neither one of us. We just don't think they're interesting questions.


You don't even know what the questions are.


The most pressing one is, why are you such a dumb ass.

That's rhetorical by the way.



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Originally Posted by smokepole
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
Originally Posted by smokepole
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
The "more interesting questions" appear to elude you as well.


They've eluded neither one of us. We just don't think they're interesting questions.


You don't even know what the questions are.


The most pressing one is, why are you such a dumb ass.

That's rhetorical by the way.


Another display of your maturity level. Congrats.


Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

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Originally Posted by memtb

Just told my wife about this "very" active thread. She said, "Not interested in their opinions, I'll keep using my .338 "! That pretty much ends all debate.... at least in our house! wink memtb



Your wife truly has my respect. Give her my regards...


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
Originally Posted by smokepole
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
Originally Posted by smokepole
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
The "more interesting questions" appear to elude you as well.


They've eluded neither one of us. We just don't think they're interesting questions.


You don't even know what the questions are.


The most pressing one is, why are you such a dumb ass.

That's rhetorical by the way.


Another display of your maturity level. Congrats.


Thanks. I align it with the level of discourse. That's the proper level for a discussion of kinetic energy. You never disappoint.



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PS, don't let this stop you from posting a dissertation on kinetic energy. You know you want to. It'll be entertaining.



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Originally Posted by smokepole
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter

You don't even know what the questions are.


The most pressing one is, why are you such a dumb ass.

That's rhetorical by the way.


Another display of your maturity level. Congrats.
[/quote]

Thanks. I align it with the level of discourse. That's the proper level for a discussion of kinetic energy. You never disappoint.[/quote]

By "level of discourse" you mean your descent to grade-school name calling because you are incapable of actually discussing the issue at hand. More of the same and pretty much what I expect from you.


Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

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Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
By "level of discourse" you mean........


I mean exactly what I said, a discussion of kinetic energy. It's an exercise in mental masturbation. It's a huge surprise that you're drawn to it by the way.

Originally Posted by smokepole
PS, don't let this stop you from posting a dissertation on kinetic energy. You know you want to. It'll be entertaining.




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Originally Posted by bellydeep
300 WBY is the best elk cartridge around. Even Coyote Hunter know it.

Yes, yes, and yes. 200 gr A-Frame with max H1000 is my medicine. All bull 1 shot DRT.

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Originally Posted by smokepole
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
By "level of discourse" you mean........


I mean exactly what I said, a discussion of kinetic energy. It's an exercise in mental masturbation. It's a huge surprise that you're drawn to it by the way.

Originally Posted by smokepole
PS, don't let this stop you from posting a dissertation on kinetic energy. You know you want to. It'll be entertaining.



The simple truth is that without energy, nothing happens. That is not a guess or a statement of supposition but one of fact that leads thinking people to rather interesting questions - questions apparently beyond your ability to grasp.


Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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As I said before, I grasp them just fine. They're just not interesting.

But don't let that stop you, please expound.



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Originally Posted by smokepole

Once again, bullets and animals. Bullets impart their energy in a small area over milliseconds.
The question is, in that context is "kinetic energy" a good yardstick....


Energy is like S.D. its not wise to generalise with either.

Sitka Deers BG with 80grain mono SD .173 with about 1200 ft/lb.
is far from the minimums typically recommended by old school trains of thought.
If he had told 24cf readers they was planning to hunt moose with such projectile,
he would have been shot down by some.

TYPE of projectile can have significant effect on where energy is spent inside an animal,
and effect how much minimum energy is required for lethality. Its possible to spend less
KE and achieve superior performance.

The amount of KE in bowhunting demonstrates how little KE is needed if you select the
correct projectile... wink ..tests by Ashby are valuable reading.( abbreviated)


"Longbow 788 grain compressed cedar arrow, 190 grain Grizzly broadhead, at 148 fps 38 ft.lbs KE
was used to repeatedly shoot through the scapula of a large zebra stallion and through the thorax to the off side, often
breaking off-side ribs (never failing to penetrate the scapula and completely through the thorax). ......
compared to:
Compound 555 grain aluminum shafted Black Diamond This combination gives 229fps 65 ft.lbs. KE,
penetrate only 5 to 8 inched beyond the scapula, and occasionally failed to penetrate the scapula at all on that same
zebra carcass......next,
Compound 450 grain carbon arrow - three blade head, vel. 259fps 76 ft.lbs. KE ,unable to penetrate the zebra scapula."


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Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by Owl
My .338 Win Mag has LESS recoil than my .300 Weatherby.


Denying simple physics is not a good idea.


I don't know Owl, but will draw a little heat away from him anyway. wink

I've got one .300Win and one .338Win. It's an apples to oranges comparison that should favor the .300 for lighter recoil but that's simply not the case.

My .300Win is a Ruger #1B with a 20yr old Burris 6-18X. Burris didn't know how to make light scopes back then (maybe the still don't?), and the whole rifle weighs a lot. I tried packing around the alpine country for two seasons then wised up. I forgot the weight, and it's in the back row of the safe right now.

My .338Win is a much lighter Ruger MkII with a much lighter Burris 3-9x from about 10yrs ago. Again, sitting in the back row right next to the .300 (I know there's a pattern here).

My .300Win load is a 180gr BTs over enough H4831SC to reach an accurate 3100fps.............and easily accomplished.

My .338Win load is a 225gr NPT over enough H4350 to make 2900fps on the nose. And yes, I realize that's a lot higher than normal, so I'm lucky or that pound of powder had fairly dust in it or something.

Anyway, not being a mathlete, I can't calculate whatever energies need to be compared to make sense of this, but my much heavier .300Win shooting a lighter bullet (albeit faster by 200fps) kicks like a miserable SOB (hence it's sitting in the back row), while the ligher .338Win shooting a heavier bullet with a faster powder isn't miserable at all. And honestly I had to talk myself down from a flinch before taking that first shot with the .338 because I'd heard all the complaining about recoil, and was sure I was about to receive a beating. Both are equipped with OEM Ruger tank track pads.

Please feel free to explain this for me, because it's been a head-scratcher for years. All I've come up with is the Ruger#1 is somehow a "bad design" for felt recoil, and/or the muzzle velocity factors higher than rifle and bullet weight. A friend of mine owned two #1 .300Wins and both of them ate scopes and kick like a bastid, so I know it's not just me. He sold one and rebarreled the other to a heavier contour for more weight.

Stepping away from the recoil and energy discussion for a second, I'll mention one REAL difference between the .300's and the .338...............and that's bullet price and availability. If the two cartridges are too similar to tell a difference in the field, I'd pick .30cal simply for the economics.


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Originally Posted by handwerk
I've enjoyed my synthetic stocked 300 H&H for years now, been a great elk gun. I load 180 TTSX's to 3050 fps. 2 years a go I found a deal on another like stocked pre 64 M70 in 338, I bought it and loaded up some 225's, although it shot great , I came to find out that I had crossed the line when it comes to how much recoil I can handle well, so I sold it. No doubt the .338 is a great round, but I'll get by ok with my 300 H&H, for me the 338 was too much of a good thing.


I had the same experience with a Browning Safari Grade in 338 WM and a Ruger M77 Mk II in a Bell & Carlson stock. The recoil is not as bad as the urban legends imply, but it's still substantial. The Browning weighed 9 pounds scoped. When I carried it, I wanted it to be a pound lighter. When I shot it, I wanted it to be a pound heavier. The Ruger was lighter but the more modern stock design handled recoil better. I killed one elk with the Browning, breaking its spine at 110 yards. I could have done that with a 30-06. Or a 30-30.


Okie John


Originally Posted by Brad
If Montana had a standing army, a 270 Win with Federal Blue Box 130's would be the standard issue.
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Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
Originally Posted by bellydeep
300 WBY is the best elk cartridge around. Even Coyote Hunter know it.


It's a good choice. Best? Not as far as I'm concerned. YMMV.



There's nothing better.


Originally Posted by shrapnel
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle.


Originally Posted by JohnBurns
I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
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Originally Posted by 222Rem
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by Owl
My .338 Win Mag has LESS recoil than my .300 Weatherby.


Denying simple physics is not a good idea.


I don't know Owl, but will draw a little heat away from him anyway. wink

I've got one .300Win and one .338Win. It's an apples to oranges comparison that should favor the .300 for lighter recoil but that's simply not the case.

My .300Win is a Ruger #1B with a 20yr old Burris 6-18X. Burris didn't know how to make light scopes back then (maybe the still don't?), and the whole rifle weighs a lot. I tried packing around the alpine country for two seasons then wised up. I forgot the weight, and it's in the back row of the safe right now.

My .338Win is a much lighter Ruger MkII with a much lighter Burris 3-9x from about 10yrs ago. Again, sitting in the back row right next to the .300 (I know there's a pattern here).

My .300Win load is a 180gr BTs over enough H4831SC to reach an accurate 3100fps.............and easily accomplished.

My .338Win load is a 225gr NPT over enough H4350 to make 2900fps on the nose. And yes, I realize that's a lot higher than normal, so I'm lucky or that pound of powder had fairly dust in it or something.

Anyway, not being a mathlete, I can't calculate whatever energies need to be compared to make sense of this, but my much heavier .300Win shooting a lighter bullet (albeit faster by 200fps) kicks like a miserable SOB (hence it's sitting in the back row), while the ligher .338Win shooting a heavier bullet with a faster powder isn't miserable at all. And honestly I had to talk myself down from a flinch before taking that first shot with the .338 because I'd heard all the complaining about recoil, and was sure I was about to receive a beating. Both are equipped with OEM Ruger tank track pads.

Please feel free to explain this for me, because it's been a head-scratcher for years. All I've come up with is the Ruger#1 is somehow a "bad design" for felt recoil, and/or the muzzle velocity factors higher than rifle and bullet weight. A friend of mine owned two #1 .300Wins and both of them ate scopes and kick like a bastid, so I know it's not just me. He sold one and rebarreled the other to a heavier contour for more weight.

Stepping away from the recoil and energy discussion for a second, I'll mention one REAL difference between the .300's and the .338...............and that's bullet price and availability. If the two cartridges are too similar to tell a difference in the field, I'd pick .30cal simply for the economics.



Stock shape is a huge factor in felt recoil... just as shooting posture and the weight of the shooter contribute heavily, pun intended. But you cannot change the basic facts that Physics insists on. Sitting up straighter and riding with the recoil is better than hunching over and stopping the movement. Stocks with a little bit of cast allow the gun to move away from the face and greatly reduce felt recoil. None of that changes actual recoil.

Now when someone starts talking crazy numbers and saying things like a lighter rifle shooting a much heavier bullet at nearly similar speeds kicks less than a smaller bullet in a heavier rifle you have to accept the unwritten. The shooters interpretation leaves out the fact they expect Physics to reign "and it really wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. "


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Both rifles had the loads worked up and zeroed off a bench, so the posture was same/same...........and ideal for maximizing the felt recoil. Both rifles "feel" llike they're coming straight back, and neither bites me in the cheek bone.

My best guess is the increased muzzle velocity also causes proportionate recoil velocity, and that's what creates the painful bite. My .338 is more of a heavy push (which mathematically might be heavier than the .300's numbers), but is spread out over enough milliseconds to not hurt, while the .300Win gets recoils so quickly that my body takes a full hit rather than recoiling with the rifle.

I know that mathematics always tells the truth, so I don't doubt the lighter .338, shooting a heavier bullet is technically the "heavier recoiler" on paper. But the perceived "recoil curve" is very tolerable, while the heavier gun/lighter bullet .300Win isn't. And Ruger's idea of a recoil pad does a fine job of staying out of the equation altogether. Someday I'll buy a Simms slip-on for my .300, and give it another try.


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Originally Posted by 222Rem
Both rifles had the loads worked up and zeroed off a bench, so the posture was same/same...........and ideal for maximizing the felt recoil. Both rifles "feel" llike they're coming straight back, and neither bites me in the cheek bone.

My best guess is the increased muzzle velocity also causes proportionate recoil velocity, and that's what creates the painful bite. My .338 is more of a heavy push (which mathematically might be heavier than the .300's numbers), but is spread out over enough milliseconds to not hurt, while the .300Win gets recoils so quickly that my body takes a full hit rather than recoiling with the rifle.

I know that mathematics always tells the truth, so I don't doubt the lighter .338, shooting a heavier bullet is technically the "heavier recoiler" on paper. But the perceived "recoil curve" is very tolerable, while the heavier gun/lighter bullet .300Win isn't. And Ruger's idea of a recoil pad does a fine job of staying out of the equation altogether. Someday I'll buy a Simms slip-on for my .300, and give it another try.


I would certainly agree that the .338 seems to push while the .300 magnums seem to hit much more quickly. So much so I rarely use mine.

I did just buy a .300 Weatherby M-70 push feed and except for a Limb saver pad and bedding it is pretty stock. It doesn't seem to recoil as bad as the .338 when loaded with 180's. I hope it stays that way when I get a 200 grain load worked up. I really like the way 200 grain .308 Noslers perform on game.

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For me the math is easy, Two Ruger MKII rifles, one in .300WM, the other in .338WM. Both have Zytel .with boat paddle stocks. Have not weighed the rifles but assume about 8.3 pounds with scope.

300WM = 180g @ 3033fps using 70.0g powder, calculated recoil = 29.2 ft-lbs
338WM = 225g @ 2742fps using 69.0g powder, calculated recoil = 33.8 ft-lbs

"Shoulder math" concurs with the calculated recoil - the .338WM hits harder, and noticeably so.


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No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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