24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 9 of 12 1 2 7 8 9 10 11 12
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,257
Campfire Tracker
OP Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,257
Thanks for all the responses, gotta love the way these threads go!

My only Berger experience, although vicariously, was the goat in my avatar. The client shot this goat with a 300 Win mag with 180gr Bergers, not sure what design but they were a hollow-point. I told him to aim for the shoulder to break him down, as the goat was in a little depression and the rest of the hill was pretty steep. His instincts must have taken over, he hit midway in the lungs. The goat walked in circles for maybe 10 seconds before going down on the lip of the hole he was in. And rolled, fortunately only 100 yds.

The bullet didn't exit, goats are tough, but I would have thought we should have had an exit. This was 10 years ago, maybe Bergers designs have changed since then. The 7mm 168 Bergers are fairly well respected for elk here, I couldn't load 'em far enough out to get close to the lands and still go in the magazine.


Eagles may soar, but a weasel never got sucked into a jet turbine!
BP-B2

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,125
J
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
J
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,125
Maybe they'll come up with "elk spray", kinda like bear spray.....


Ping pong balls for the win.
Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.

Ain’t easy havin pals.
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 6,819
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 6,819
I wonder if from time to time, Rick adopts a pseudonym like Llama Bob, or Larry, and logs on to the site, making stupid comments, just to generate more traffic. shocked

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,710
M
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
M
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,710
Originally Posted by weaselsRus
The 7mm 168 Bergers are fairly well respected for elk here, I couldn't load 'em far enough out to get close to the lands and still go in the magazine.


Did you try shooting them away from the lands?

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 95,303
E
Campfire Oracle
Offline
Campfire Oracle
E
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 95,303
Originally Posted by MIKEWERNER
Not an answer to my question, but a phenomenally fantastic diversion attempt. 10/10

Originally Posted by elkhunternm
Originally Posted by MIKEWERNER
So your argument is, since even the A-frame did not exit......the frangible VLD is a better application on heavier-boned game?

Originally Posted by elkhunternm
Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
The goal isn't to have a "high percentage" of animals recovered. It's to recover all of them. Without a good exit wound, there's no way you can be sure of that. An exit wound also speeds the animal "dropping" since it facilitates blood loss.

I have yet to hear a single reason why one would want to use the failure prone Bergers instead of the many reliable bullets that are readily available.

Used a 270 gr Swift A-Frame from my .375 H&H on this blue wildebeest and the bullet did not exit. The shot was around 100-125 yds away.
[Linked Image]

Guess we were lucky to even recover it,since there was no exit wound for it to bleed out from.


Nope,you do not need an exit wound to kill big game.
That's the answer you're gonna get.


Life Member SCI
Life Member DSC
Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association

Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell

Proper bullet placement + sufficient penetration = quick, clean kill. Finn Aagard

Ken
IC B2

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,335
R
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
R
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,335
Originally Posted by mathman
Originally Posted by weaselsRus
The 7mm 168 Bergers are fairly well respected for elk here, I couldn't load 'em far enough out to get close to the lands and still go in the magazine.


Did you try shooting them away from the lands?

I bet 168 classic hunters would shoot

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
Often VLD's shoot very accurately when seated well off the lands.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,257
Campfire Tracker
OP Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,257
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Often VLD's shoot very accurately when seated well off the lands.


I'll try 'em.

OK, stupid question, since I'd be setting 'em deep, could there be a problem with the gas going around the bullet and ahead into the throat?

Last edited by weaselsRus; 07/14/17.

Eagles may soar, but a weasel never got sucked into a jet turbine!
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Originally Posted by MIKEWERNER
That's the problem....we're voluntarily going back to the frangible cup & core bullets we had to use 50 years ago.

Friends don't let friends shoot VLD's at big game.

Originally Posted by smokepole
The other argument is, shoot what you want and what works for you and be happy with your choice. But don't run down others' choices because they don't work like you think a bullet is supposed to work based on what the "ideal bullet" was 50 years ago.



I tend to agree with Mike and have often stated that I think most if not all animals I've taken in the last 35 years could have been taken with my .22-250 and a 40g varmint bullet. The one exception that comes to mind immediately is a mulie buck at about (from memory, don't quote me) 150 yards. I was going for a quartering away shot and the buck stepped forward and turned just as the trigger broke. The result was a shot to the ham and a North Fork bullet that was recovered from up against the sternum. It is quite possible a 40g varmint bullet would have done so much damage that the buck would have gone down or stopped or at least proceeded slowly enough that I could have put more 40's into him until the job was done but that's not the kind of harvest I even like to think about.

When it comes to bullet choice, and while I have had discussions in which I've tried to present both sides fairly, I've never recommended a Berger to anyone. If others choose them that's OK by me. I'll continue to recommend any of many other choices first, with a select few where high impact velocities are possible.


Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,710
M
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
M
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,710

The problem with Mike's statement and others is Berger VLDs don't act the same as conventional frangible cup and core bullets. They may well not act like some want a bullet to act, but that's a different question.

IC B3

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,212
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,212
My firsthand experience is .... not much.

I used a Berger VLD one time.
Got a nice bull.

Bullet did not exit but the entry was substantial enough.
It really only made a slight tear on the opposite side of the ribcage. Not even visible in the photo.
[Linked Image]


If this is fair representation then it did blow up a little bit upon entry.
Maybe could be a bad deal if it struck bone.

The accuracy seemed to be there. This was 496 yards.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


I don't have any big gripes about the bullet but it didn't convince me that I like it better than a partition.

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 36,824
D
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
D
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 36,824
Originally Posted by Brad
Phugging-A, I just browsed through all this bull chit. Pick a flocking bullet and go hunt.Taking an internet poll on what to use is akin asking a stranger what girl to marry. Elk are mythically tough, but in reality give up the ghost pretty quickly.

Read Pat's 4 points carefully (scenarshooter), glue them to your forehead, and repeat often.

laugh

Speaking of Pat, when one needs advice on killing critters, ask those who've done it. Check Scenarshooter's posts and you'll see an awesome photo album of what he can do/has done with a rifle.

Bergers kill and they're pretty expansive. LR hunters like them because they are deadly at extended ranges when the bullet isn't moving as fast.

Bergers do like to jump; BR shooters often jam them, not the best scenario for hunters.

Like most high ogive bullets, COAL can be critical. You need to find the "sweet spot" or optimal COAL.

Here's a useful protocol: http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/03/berger-tips-

And, as posted earlier, you don't need a blood trail, standing over a dead animal.

I've killed WT's and pronghorns with Bergers. Fast moving VLDs can create a messy scene at the skinning shed, but they're lethal. Everything I've shot with Bergers was DRT, trailing not an issue.

DF

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
I'll also add that anybody who claims an exit hole plays a larger role in blood loss and bullet lethality than damage to the vital organs INSIDE the animal doesn't know what they're talking about.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,415
M
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
M
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,415
I'll also add that anybody who claims a frangible bullet is not more susceptible to heavy bone on entry doesn't know what they are talking about.


"Those that think they know everything are annoying those of us that have Google." - Dr. D. Edward Wilkinson

Note to self: Never ask an old Fogey how he is doing today.
Revised note to self: Keep it short when someone asks how I am doing.

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,710
M
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
M
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,710
Did anyone say that?

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
Nope, but Llama Bob posted this: "Internal bleeding drops blood pressure much slower than external bleeding."


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,118
S
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
S
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,118
I've only killed 4 elk with 180 gr. Bergers out of my 7mmSTW - 3 never took a step, justed crumpled where they stood. The only elk that wasn't DRT, was a cow that was shot as she was running about 80-90 yards away, after the shot she maybe went 30yds before she crumpled up, and she left the biggest blood trail I've ever seen left by any critter. Looked like somebody filled a 5 gallon bucket with blood and flung it down the trail - Ray Charles could of followed it. Two of the 4 elk had exit holes, both being close shots of less than 100yds. As far as the Bergers go - I love em, they do the job and they're accurate as hell.

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 15,638
G
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
G
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 15,638
Pretty funny stuff you throwing a hissy fit about stuff you haven't a clue about Mike...



- Greg

Success is found at the intersection of planning, hard work, and stubbornness.
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 36,824
D
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
D
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 36,824
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Nope, but Llama Bob posted this: "Internal bleeding drops blood pressure much slower than external bleeding."

Dolly Llama's Troll terminal ballistics is about as entertaining as his Troll hemodynamic physiology.

He's equally uninformed on both.

DF

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,179
J
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
J
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,179
Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Nope, but Llama Bob posted this: "Internal bleeding drops blood pressure much slower than external bleeding."

Dolly Llama's Troll terminal ballistics is about as entertaining as his Troll hemodynamic physiology.

He's equally uninformed on both.

DF



Amen Dirtfarmer. The guy is very "entertaining".


It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
Page 9 of 12 1 2 7 8 9 10 11 12

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
120 members (16penny, 257_X_50, 338Rules, 444Matt, 32_20fan, 16 invisible), 1,794 guests, and 839 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,187,726
Posts18,400,684
Members73,822
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.128s Queries: 15 (0.004s) Memory: 0.9159 MB (Peak: 1.0764 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-03-29 07:10:58 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS