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#12120144 - 06/30/17 Re: Glock releases photos of their MHS submission [Re: shootem]  
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Originally Posted by shootem
Originally Posted by DakotaDeer
Factor 4--License Rights--Ammunition was probably the actual determining factor.


So what's the deal with that? Glock chamber some kind of 9 3/16 mm proprietary round or something?
Well we know that neither Sig or Glock manufacture ammunition, so they had to partner with an Ammo maker. And I can't imagine the DOD would accept a foreign ammunition maker for very obvious reasons. So Sig struck a very good deal with someone...whom, I have no clue. If I were Sig I'd ask for a larger quantity bid for ammo from the makers to try to gain an edge in price. Then figure that I'll just take the excess from the government contract, brand it Sig and sell commercially to get my money back. Ammo is like oil, it doesn't really go un-sold...you can always sell ammo.

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#12120299 - 06/30/17 Re: Glock releases photos of their MHS submission [Re: GunGeek]  
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I don't know who they partnered with (maybe I'll ask on Monday), but it's good schit.

George


Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.
#12121005 - 06/30/17 Re: Glock releases photos of their MHS submission [Re: GunGeek]  
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Yea I like the Sig ammo


The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude


Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell


#12121092 - 06/30/17 Re: Glock releases photos of their MHS submission [Re: GunGeek]  
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Sig offers the ammo already; Glock does not.

Poor business planning on Glock's part if they really wanted to win.

#12132924 - 07/07/17 Re: Glock releases photos of their MHS submission [Re: GunGeek]  
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This just in, Sig partnered with Winchester for the ammo.
http://taskandpurpose.com/winchester-will-supply-ammo-armys-new-service-pistol/

#12146792 - 07/14/17 Re: Glock releases photos of their MHS submission [Re: GunGeek]  
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I sure as hell would not want to go to war with "low bid". A million bucks less!


http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...il-evaluation-process-mhs-yes-certainly/


#12151635 - 07/17/17 Re: Glock releases photos of their MHS submission [Re: jimmyp]  
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Originally Posted by jimmyp
I sure as hell would not want to go to war with "low bid". A million bucks less!


http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...il-evaluation-process-mhs-yes-certainly/

Not a million less, a HUNDRED million less!

And it's not just low bid. They establish the minimum performance criteria (life span, MRBF, etc.) and then they take the lowest bid / best value from those that pass the test and meet their criteria. The 320 is only about 4-5 years old, but I have yet to hear of any real issues with it. I don't know how it will stack up to the M9 for reliability (probably pretty darned close, maybe even better), but it beats the hell out of the M9 in pretty much every other category, and I'll bet it holds it's own on reliability.

#12151646 - 07/17/17 Re: Glock releases photos of their MHS submission [Re: GunGeek]  
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Somebody that really knows his schit predicted Sig would take over the LE market.

So far I think he's spot on.



Clark

#12151665 - 07/17/17 Re: Glock releases photos of their MHS submission [Re: deflave]  
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Originally Posted by deflave
Somebody that really knows his schit predicted Sig would take over the LE market.

So far I think he's spot on.



Clark
That's funny, because I remember that post...and I remember thinking to myself...YEP!!!

#12152134 - 07/17/17 Re: Glock releases photos of their MHS submission [Re: deflave]  
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Originally Posted by deflave
Somebody that really knows his schit predicted Sig would take over the LE market.

So far I think he's spot on.



Clark


Perhaps, and then again, perhaps not. The Beretta M9 (92FS) was adopted by the military around 1987, just about the time the Glock 17 began making inroads into the LE market (City of Miami Police Department). While some law enforcement agencies did adopt the Beretta 92, the vast majority went with the Glock and still issue or approve it for duty use today. About 65% of the nation's LEOs carry Glocks. Just because the military adopts a particular weapon is no guarantee civilian police departments will do so as well. There are a myriad of factors that enter into such a decision, and unit cost is just one of those factors. Only time will tell.

#12152314 - 07/17/17 Re: Glock releases photos of their MHS submission [Re: GunGeek]  
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100 million less. Time will tell.


#12153339 - 07/18/17 Re: Glock releases photos of their MHS submission [Re: deflave]  
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Originally Posted by deflave
Somebody that really knows his schit predicted Sig would take over the LE market.

So far I think he's spot on.



Clark


🎈👍🏻 🔫



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
#12153492 - 07/18/17 Re: Glock releases photos of their MHS submission [Re: GunGeek]  
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At some point in this very basic testing, the bids were released. The SIG bid was a great deal less that Glock. Mind you this includes pistols, magazines, parts, training as well as other ancillary equipment. Sometime during this revelation, the government in it’s usual consistency in decision making chose the lowest bidder and called a halt to the second and most revealing portion of the testing. The reasoning behind the governments decision was based on the first set of test where the government declared that both guns were so close in performance there was no need to continue with the second phase of testing and awarded the contract to SIG because of the much lower price that they believed Glock could never match or come close to.

Over a longer (testing) period, the ergonomics would be further tested as would the life expectancy of each entry. The expected figure before breakdown was right at 20,000 rounds. There would be the usual water immersion, mud test, sand, drop test etcetera which when done should have provided conclusive proof of which pistol was correct for our soldiers.

Would the low bidder have been the best pistol for the job or the high bidder? We’ll never know unless the test are continued and completed with both companies guns involved.

Time will tell if once again .gov bought a pig in a poke, MacNamara saved 1 cent per barrel and killed a lot of men.


#12153916 - 07/18/17 Re: Glock releases photos of their MHS submission [Re: GunGeek]  
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McNamara made the right call…the mistake was in pressing it into the field before it was really ready.

Last edited by GunGeek; 07/18/17.
#12153963 - 07/18/17 Re: Glock releases photos of their MHS submission [Re: GunGeek]  
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what possesses you to say that sending a bare steel barrel into a rain forest was the right call? Secondly having shot early glocks with north of 50,000 rounds through them, time will tell if the modular sig will last as they shut the test down after sig bought the order. so again only time will tell.


#12154122 - 07/18/17 Re: Glock releases photos of their MHS submission [Re: jimmyp]  
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Originally Posted by jimmyp
what possesses you to say that sending a bare steel barrel into a rain forest was the right call? Secondly having shot early glocks with north of 50,000 rounds through them, time will tell if the modular sig will last as they shut the test down after sig bought the order. so again only time will tell.
Reading comprehension dood, read the second part of the sentence above. The decision to dump the M14 and adopt the M16 was the right call. Pushing the M16 into service in a war before it was ready, was the wrong call.

#12154172 - 07/18/17 Re: Glock releases photos of their MHS submission [Re: jimmyp]  
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Originally Posted by jimmyp
At some point in this very basic testing, the bids were released. The SIG bid was a great deal less that Glock. Mind you this includes pistols, magazines, parts, training as well as other ancillary equipment. Sometime during this revelation, the government in it’s usual consistency in decision making chose the lowest bidder and called a halt to the second and most revealing portion of the testing. The reasoning behind the governments decision was based on the first set of test where the government declared that both guns were so close in performance there was no need to continue with the second phase of testing and awarded the contract to SIG because of the much lower price that they believed Glock could never match or come close to.

Over a longer (testing) period, the ergonomics would be further tested as would the life expectancy of each entry. The expected figure before breakdown was right at 20,000 rounds. There would be the usual water immersion, mud test, sand, drop test etcetera which when done should have provided conclusive proof of which pistol was correct for our soldiers.

Would the low bidder have been the best pistol for the job or the high bidder? We’ll never know unless the test are continued and completed with both companies guns involved.

Time will tell if once again .gov bought a pig in a poke, MacNamara saved 1 cent per barrel and killed a lot of men.


Somehow that doesn't sound like your writing. Did you copy it from somewhere?

#12154174 - 07/18/17 Re: Glock releases photos of their MHS submission [Re: Winchestermodel70]  
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Originally Posted by Winchestermodel70
Originally Posted by deflave
Somebody that really knows his schit predicted Sig would take over the LE market.

So far I think he's spot on.



Clark


Perhaps, and then again, perhaps not. The Beretta M9 (92FS) was adopted by the military around 1987, just about the time the Glock 17 began making inroads into the LE market (City of Miami Police Department). While some law enforcement agencies did adopt the Beretta 92, the vast majority went with the Glock and still issue or approve it for duty use today. About 65% of the nation's LEOs carry Glocks. Just because the military adopts a particular weapon is no guarantee civilian police departments will do so as well. There are a myriad of factors that enter into such a decision, and unit cost is just one of those factors. Only time will tell.



Much to learn you have.




Dave

#12154205 - 07/18/17 Re: Glock releases photos of their MHS submission [Re: Yondering]  
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Originally Posted by Yondering
Originally Posted by jimmyp
At some point in this very basic testing, the bids were released. The SIG bid was a great deal less that Glock. Mind you this includes pistols, magazines, parts, training as well as other ancillary equipment. Sometime during this revelation, the government in it’s usual consistency in decision making chose the lowest bidder and called a halt to the second and most revealing portion of the testing. The reasoning behind the governments decision was based on the first set of test where the government declared that both guns were so close in performance there was no need to continue with the second phase of testing and awarded the contract to SIG because of the much lower price that they believed Glock could never match or come close to.

Over a longer (testing) period, the ergonomics would be further tested as would the life expectancy of each entry. The expected figure before breakdown was right at 20,000 rounds. There would be the usual water immersion, mud test, sand, drop test etcetera which when done should have provided conclusive proof of which pistol was correct for our soldiers.

Would the low bidder have been the best pistol for the job or the high bidder? We’ll never know unless the test are continued and completed with both companies guns involved.

Time will tell if once again .gov bought a pig in a poke, MacNamara saved 1 cent per barrel and killed a lot of men.


Somehow that doesn't sound like your writing. Did you copy it from somewhere?


Yea he pulled it from a cry a lot article from the firearms blog.

They were crying the the mgs process was not fair


The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude


Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell


#12154481 - 07/18/17 Re: Glock releases photos of their MHS submission [Re: GunGeek]  
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glock fan boys should invest in figure sized condoms

#12155800 - Yesterday at 01:55 PM Re: Glock releases photos of their MHS submission [Re: GunGeek]  
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the gun was ready, how he saved some money by elimination of the chrome in the bore before they started using them is part of history. Please post your sources regards how the gun was not ready, it was a choice on DOD's part to send the gun non chromed and with the wrong powder...low bid choice....just like the sig320.


#12155809 - Yesterday at 02:02 PM Re: Glock releases photos of their MHS submission [Re: Yondering]  
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sorry I copied it from the link that I posted. my apologies for the confusion.


#12155813 - Yesterday at 02:04 PM Re: Glock releases photos of their MHS submission [Re: ldholton]  
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just for them records, I own sigs, glocks, SWMP's, Kimber and some others i cannot recall.


#12155971 - Yesterday at 03:48 PM Re: Glock releases photos of their MHS submission [Re: jimmyp]  
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Originally Posted by jimmyp
the gun was ready, how he saved some money by elimination of the chrome in the bore before they started using them is part of history. Please post your sources regards how the gun was not ready, it was a choice on DOD's part to send the gun non chromed and with the wrong powder...low bid choice....just like the sig320.


Source is the book The Black Rifle by Blake Stevens. It wasn’t ready in the sense that when they issued the rifle, the cleaning equipment hadn’t even been made. The contract for cleaning equipment went out AFTER they put the rifle in the field. Nor had they settled on a standardized loading of the ammunition; they were still experimenting with at least 3 different powders. The lots of ammunition that were identified as problematic hadn’t even been properly tested by the Army before issuance in the field. As it turns out, the port pressure was significantly higher (21k vs 16k), which resulted in a much higher cyclic rate (900 vs 650 as spec’d). That caused significant reliability problems because the bolt was traveling forward again before the next round in the magazine fully advanced, causing jams (and other issues). The Edgewater buffer was replaced with what is standard in all 20” AR’s today, and that solved much of the cyclic rate problems, but they had to go back to the drawing board and re-formulate the powder. If you don’t even have a standardized cartridge specification, then the rifle isn’t ready.

There’s a youtube video also with an interview with L. James Sullivan, the man who designed the AR-15 (Stoner actually didn’t have a whole lot to do with the design of the AR15 until much after the fact). In that interview he states that the AR worked, but they weren’t aware how on the edge of not working the rifle was as designed. Following all the crap that happened in ’66, they had to make a few changes, specifically to the ammunition, buffer, extractor and extractor spring.

As for chrome lining, the rifle was never spec’d for chrome lining, which was an oversight. Chrome lining was a new concept to the US military, with the M14 being our first chrome lined rifle. During the M14 program they had a good deal of issues with chrome lining which lead to a very high barrel reject rate, thus driving up the cost. Even barrels that were accepted often had high & low spots in the bore which wasn’t real great for accuracy. Vietnam era M21 sniper rifles all had air gauged standard M14 barrels that skipped the chrome lining. On the M16 could have skipped the chrome lining on purpose because of the issues they had with the M14 (pure speculation on my part). Still, the chrome lining thing could have been dealt with had our troops had cleaning equipment. There were oodles of M1 Carbines, Garands, Thompson’s, 1919’s, M3’s, various shotguns, etc. that didn’t have chrome lining and while they didn’t go unscathed, they didn’t experience anything near the disaster that was experienced with the M16…It’s amazing what you can accomplish when you’re given the tools to succeed.

ETA - The rifles issued were Colt 603's, and they were still stamped XM16E1. They didn't even call it the A1 until '67. XM is the designation for an experimental rifle.

Last edited by GunGeek; Yesterday at 04:06 PM.
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