Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game .257 Weatherby culling results.

I was asked to post some results of a recent deer cull hunt we did in Southern Australia, so here goes. There were 2 shooters, 3 calibers and 7 bullets used, and 500 animals taken, mostly fallow does and red hinds.we were expected to differenciate between male and female hornless yearlings too. Bear in mind that a hunt conducted to help control population may be lacking in some of the comforting niceities, and there is next to nothing pretty about it. On the other hand, its a lot of shooting. we averaged about 35 a day apiece.

So anyways here's the Readers Digest condensed version.

I was using a completely stock but very accurate Weatherby Lazerguard in .257 Weatherby as a main gun. The base load that I brought with me was the 115 grain NBT loaded with IMR 7828. The air-line limit of 5 Kilograms allowed 170 rounds. Three other loads were assembled in camp on a hand press, namely the 110 Accubond, 100 grain Swift Scirroco and finally the 80 TTSX all using ADI powders which as many of you know produces the Hodgdons powders we use over here. Ranges varied from zero to 700 yards, with most somewhere around the middle.

The 115 grain NBT is a bit sturdier than people give it credit for. It was a fast killer of the little fallows which are about pronghorn sized, and entirely adequite for the red hinds which ranges from the size of small whitetail for yearlings on the low end to some that would pass for a really nice cow elk. Exits were routine and DRTs likewise routine. I believe that the 100 grain would have been the perfect match for the fallows.They are pretty small.

Next in line is the 110 Accubond. It was surprisingly close to the NBT in performance, perhaps a little slower on rib hits on the little fallows and good on the reds. Exits could be expected. Shoulders were better than ribs. This H1000 load ( A2217) didn't survive the American to Australian translation well, and I was reluctant to shoot it much past 500. It also started showing pressure signs even when I backed it off a couple. These things happen.

The Swift proved to be a pretty tough bullet. If you just got lungs on the fallows you could count on a run even if it wasn't a long one, shoulders were much better. The bullet came into its own on the reds. Getting twofers on purpose with it became a bit of a game when my driver/guide/spotter/identifier/friend asked for them. Picking the right animal out of the herd and not killing the one behind it or in front can be frustrating, but sometimes two you want will line up. He was also prone to asking for random head shots, sometimes for no particular reason. What can I say, he's an Aussie. They do that.

The wheels fell off with the TTSXs. I was at least hopeful that the 3950 fps velocity would compensate for the copper bullets but that didn't prove to be the case.If you ever have a pressing need for something to die somewhere else this is your bullet. Practically everything that wasn't spined or brained ran, and many that fell to the shot got up an ran. you can't hear them hit, and most animals didn't even look hit. When we weren't looking for cripples we were getting the dogs to look for them. finding blood was a fantasy. We went out lamping one night (just once) with a another guide and a neighbouring property owner who is in the deer business as well as we could have some witnesses. Comments there were pretty damning. My favorite was "they shouldn't be allowed to sell those foooooking things".

So there you have it. I was predicting that the results would come in in a fastest killing order as presented. Softest to hardest, which also translated to least penetrating to most penetrating. It hasn't completely escaped my notice that the order is also heaviest to lightest, and slowest to fastest but they aren't that far apart except for the 80 grain outlier.

Amazing to me how radically different bullets perform for different people. My son has shot quite a bit with the 80gr TTSX in a 25-06. Even a brown bear. Total penetration and mostly DRT.

I have only watched about 30-35 Accubonds used and have yet to see a pass-through, even on smallish stuff. Watched a Kodiak bear take four 270gr Accubonds in the ribs from a 375H&H... all were caught.

A lot more questions than answers...

Interesting stuff. Sounds like quite the testing ground.

Awesome write up. The Accubond, NBT and Swift are three of my favorites in my 25-06. Sounds like all three are worked pretty well. Thanks again for taking the time to write it up.

Nice write up with actual results. Good info to have, thanks.

I can't imagine shooting 500 animals. Something so fun could turn into a job with numbers that high.

Speaking of questions, when did they start making a 270 grain Accubond?

I'm guessing he meant the 260 gr .375" Accubond which has worked out nicely for me.

Thanks for the detailed write-up on the culling efforts! That had to be interesting, to say the least. The 115 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip has become my favorite .25-06 bullet. Mostly I use it for mule deer & pronghorn antelope, with the odd coyote thrown in now and again. Accurate and very lethal.

I'm a bit envious of all the shooting experience you got on that trip!

Regards, Guy

I wouldn't recommend it for everyone, that's for sure. First off, cut it in half because my partner shot the other half. Still, its a lot of shooting, killing and recoil because its day after day relentlessly. I did a 14 day one once, ending up with 390 animals of which 112 were water buffalo. Since the 2nd week was all .458 Win Mag there were times when I would wonder if I was having fun or not.

Model70Guy,

That is some interesting info. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

Size/attitude of the animals being shot? Hasn't your son been primarily shooting things like moose, caribou, and bears in the shoulders?

I will say that the culling report has a very similar nuance to what would be expected from the NZ website that reports all of his bullet experiences/expectations.

Basically, a soft-fronted tough-butted heavy-for-caliber C+C bullet started at 3000 or more kills ungulates very well. Everything else becomes a compromise from that ideal.

I'd be curious to hear your load with the 80 ttsx? You chronographed these loads?

I've shot and seen shot a decent pile of whitetail does and pronghorn antelope with 80 grain TTSXs from a 257 Roberts AI, and even more with the 80 grain TSX from the 270 at 3800-3900 fps. The results were essentially the opposite of what you described. Animals were very dead, very quickly.

My error... they were actually 300gr Accubonds in a vanilla H&H.

Cannot say any one aiming point... brown bear was twice through the heart broadside, once from each side. Bear made about 150 yards, dead bear running. At that point it twirled in place, absolutely painting a huge circle, then died and rolled another hundred yards.

He has also used CNS, shoulders, and frontal chest shots on deer, moose, caribou, mountain goat, etc...

Barnes bullets are a funny subject. People that shoot them and don't like them really don't like them. People that shoot them and like them really really like them and are very sensitive about any negative that surrounds them. Almost like talking bad about their mothers.

I'm in the group that shot them on one Africa trip and was wondering why they were for sale to begin with..

Thanks for taking the time for the write up.

Todd

And you let him shoot a big bear with an 80 grain bullet? Isn't that like letting a kid play on an LA freeway?! Haha

72 grain of H4831, or 2213. I can get the same results with old 7828. That's a smidge over Barnes data. The loads were all chronographed in Canada, those loaded in camp in Australia weren't.

Not really a stunt and he is an adult, so he got to choose. The bear was not really much more than a monster black bear for size... 150 yards broadside and unaware.

Wow, how is it things have stayed rather civil, on topic and not on the 5th page already?

Ive seen other .257cal Barnes X threads drift to people telling how much they then hated the .270win because J. O'Connors rifle
would only group 1.5" moa with Noslers... and that he didn't deserve to be a popular well read gun author because of it.....

Great write up, thanks for the field report.

More importantly, how can I get a job do this too.

I am ALSO from Saskatchewan - that should count for something??:)

I'll admit to being surprised myself; at least about the civil part.

Me too. Also surprised about the 80 TTSXs...I would have banked on that one...

They have left me in awe...

I'm still banking on the 100 gr TTSX at 3550, it's a damn meanie!

I know of folks with 80s out of 25-06 rounds that have killed big bears and big moose and with zero complaints.... but thats not exactly the same. But should be dang close.

Thats pretty simple because if they are not the best single bullet design out there, they are damn close to perfection.

But you know where I stand.

For folks that demand DRT, big holes, huge blood trails if they do run a bit etc... cup and core is your baby. For me running never has mattered one bit. The fact I can take any shot angle at any reasonable distance and almost be assured of 2 holes says all I've ever wanted.

A bear running 150 yards from a lung shot doesn't sound too good, sounds not too much different than what Model70Guy had happen. Barnes makes a good product but they aren't perfect all the time either.

Had some excellent results with the 358 200 gr TTSX this spring by the way but there seem to be way fewer problems reported with the bigger TTSX bullets.

I'm a big Accubond fan and have only recovered 2 so far but in general they expand really wide so it's not surprising they get caught in the hide on occasion. The bigger 358 and 375's I recovered really expanded wide and dropped game quick, so far all the 6.5's and 308's all have exited.

Around here if animals run excessive distances the chances on recovering them is not good, the brush is just too thick. I don't mind animals that run a ways but 100-200 yards and there can be big trouble. In the case of mountain goat DRT is preferred but in their case I try to take out some heavy bone anyway to make sure they don't run into the cliffs where they can't be recovered.

Bear was just shy of 8' and shot twice right through the middle of the heart... I have shot a lot of bears in the same place and had them go farther... using a lot bigger bullets.

I still cannot understand how everyone else gets pass-throughs with Accubonds and I have never seen one, even with bullets that should have made an exit.

I agree and a TTSX high in the shoulder will drop them as fast or faster than anything else I have seen.

A high shoulder will drop game in a heap, but the TTSX is far from the only bullet that will do that.

In my experience folks that hate Barnes haven't used them much...kinda like the guys that'll tell you a .223 is inadequate for deer, and have never used one on a deer....


FWIW Ive formed more than a few staunch opinions myself, based on a "sample of one"...

I've had nothing but good results from the TSX and the TTSX, but I've not launched them faster than 3,350fps or slower than 2,950fps. In that velocity window, they don't seem to lose petals too much and have worked really well. Only caught one and it looked like something from a Barnes advertisement, after hanging in the hide on a diagonal shot on a big pig. I do like the tendency to leave a bleeding exit hole. And it's only a guess, but I bet that 80gr .257 TTSX would be more reliable when shot in that velocity window as well.

LInks pertaining to this topic.

www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/12182336

www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/12178864

IME&O the various X iterations are far more reliable at producing an exit and do far, far less meat damage.I will not use a C&C bullet on the shoulder of a meat animal...

I think when you shoot the TTSX, you don't aim for lung tissue, aim for bone, break down the structure. I've had very good luck with 100 TTSX in the .257

At 257 Weatherby velocities, a lug nut in any location would be a killing projectile. Don't worry about it.

Personally, I don't care about meat damage. However, animals are in general sort of way made out of meat and meat-like substances. Since animals are killed by damage to the most immediately necessary bits, it stands to reason that that whatever does the most damage kills the fastest.

Sadly, it does not stand up to reason unless reason includes far more anatomical comprehension than most will ever get.

The 'you-can't-know-if-you-haven't-tried-it' argument gets so stale and crusty.

I don't text and drive. Never tried it even. Common sense would indicate taking any attention away from driving will cause problems resulting in accidents. Did we really need statistics to prove it? Do we have to try it to prove it?

Wellll, I'm old and stale and crusty...so that works!

Join the club!

Then again, so does the "I'm an expert on all sorts of things I've never even tried" approach...

So many teenagers today would declare their cell phone does NOT affect their driving.

Is it just simple genetic stupidity....or a lack of experience (accidents)?

Does driving to work one day without an accident....prove texting is safe?

Can a non-texter declare it is not safe? What if they've heard of accidents caused by texting?

Also works well in the .257R, 3,250 fps over max charge of H100V.

DF

Amen! from the back row!

Model70Guy,

Yep, as you say, "A high shoulder will drop game in a heap, but the TTSX is far from the only bullet that will do that."

I've seen it and done it with a bunch of bullets, including (gasp!) the dreaded Bergers, and even Federal "blue box" and Remington Core-Lokt factory ammo. My wife did it, very deliberately, with the heaviest-bodied Montana whitetail buck she's ever taken, using a .243 Winchester and a 100-grain Nosler Partition at a measly 2900 fps. The lousy Partition even went through both shoulders and the spine--and exited.

.257 or .375 well placed through the heart or brain of deer, those organs are going to stop working might fast regardless.

In the case of say substantially larger elephant hearts and brains .458 cal solids seem relatively minuscule and damage not that visually impressive.

size for size, .257 through a deers heart has a smaller ratio than .458 through an elephants.

There are more negative reports on the TSX line than all the other PREMIUM bullets combined. Where there is smoke....

My "sample of one" was using them on one trip to Africa that included 12 animals ranging from Cape Buffalo and Giraffe to Impala and Bushbuck... I'll never use them again and still wonder why they were for sale to begin with. I know a lot of really good men that swear by them. I swear at them and have earned the right to have my opinion about them.

Todd

Ain't that the truth. I'm sort of at the point of wanting the softest bullet I dare instead the hardest I can get. Heresy; I know.

My second rifle on this trip was a .300 win with a favorite load with the 190 Accubond LR, and a hastily camp developed one with the 210 Hunting VLD. Spectacular wound channels and exits were the norm, even on shoulder shots at close range.

Well, I got ya beat by a couple of years, probably not with stale and crusty...

Fast monos do mess up soft tissue.

High shoulder shots may produce faster DRT's, but here's how a 120 gr. TTSX impacted a 200# sow's heart. One caliber up from .257 (26 Nosler) and at 3,450 fps. This pig couldn't have been more DRT. I've posted this before but PB whacked it.

DF

My girlfriend lunged a forkie whitetail a couple years ago. 223 with a Barnes bullet. Double trouble!

That buck ran a LONG way before falling over.

I've also seen long runs with the 80gr TTSX in a 25-06

Not the best bullet around, IMO.

A bullet that gets lost in the latest and greatest shuffle is the 87gn Hornady.
It was Roy E Weatherby's favorite and I used it on Fallow, goats and pigs in a .257 Weatherby and it did work very well.
Also tried it in my .25/06 and would definitely consider it for White Tail sized game.

In the Weatherby, I loaded it to 3800fps and in the '06, up to 3600fos in my 26" barrel.
JW

Model70Guy,

I've seen quite a few animals killed with both Barnes X's, from the original to TTSX's, as well as Berger bullets. In my experience, hunters who THINK Barnes X's destroy a lot of tissue are amazed when they see the amount of internal-organ destruction caused by a Berger.

The lack of a returning "WHOMP" is interesting to me. I have not noticed that on game with the mono's but have certainly noticed it on steel.

All you get is that unrewarding "tink."





Dave

Things like being able to look at a wound and see the sky on the other side? Or smacking a deer so hard that it looks like its snowing out?

The TTSX failures may be caused by them shedding petals when driven at that velocity. If that is the cast they basically become FMJ bullets.

If I pretended that I found any, I could pretend that I knew what they looked like. . Many other TSXs that I have found were de-flowered though, and all of which were fired at lower velocity.


I've been trying for many years now to not to get wrapped up in what a bullet is "supposed" to look like, what it is supposed to weigh, measure, what member of the fungus family it should resemble or even what letter of the alphabet it might resemble if you squint just right. All I care about anymore is results.

Interesting report. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

Yep, those can be pretty messy at the skinning shed...

DF

First of all, what ya think those "shedding petals" are doing? I'd say they's flying all around, messing up stuff. Go check out the Cutting Edge Bullet web site. Those guys make monos designed to fling off ALL the petals, the core blasting on thru. They're deadly.

So, from that reasoning, a Partition, after the front half messes up a bunch of tissue, the back half becomes an "FMJ"...

Well, I reckon it does...

DF

I did a 111 water buffalo cull a few years ago in Armhem land in which CEB Safari Raptors got pitted against TSXs and A-Frames. They didn't win.

Ive heard some wacko tales about CEB raptors e.g;

"Last year I had a hunter hit a bull facing 3/4 on on the near side just off the front shoulder with a 370gn Raptor in 416.
The impact drove the bull's head up in the air and tipped him over head over ass, quite spectacular."

No hunting bullet has ever been able to lift a hulking buff over end to end, till CEB came along ...LOL

I read where an Africa hunter said the CEB Raptor wasn't his choice for thick brush. He said they flew apart when hitting brush. Makes sense.

DF

I'm conflicted about the TTSX's performance in your report and my experience with them which has been very good in 7mm, 30/06, and the 375 H&H. No run-offs other than very short distances and most DRT. I have seen some narrow wound channels though and even through soft tissue (lungs).

I wonder if it has something to do with that weight in the 257? Or "that batch" for example?

And pretty obviously, I was driving those respective Barnes a lot slower than you were.

George,

I experienced something like that, 80 gr. TTSX at 3,600 fps out of my .240 Wby., not nearly 80 gr. at 3,900 fps,

I think the effect of speed on bullets can be a major factor regarding optimal bullet performance.

I try to match bullet design and velocity for the task at hand. The best testing lab is in the field, oberving how well bullets kill game animals.

Conventional wisdom has it that there is no mono velocity ceiling. Theoretically, maybe not; a mono won't blow up. Practically speaking, there seems to be a functional velocity ceiling in cases like this, low S.D. monos at warp speed.

Terminal performance is the gold standard, all else is speculation.

DF

Maybe there is a simpler answer. The frontal area of a 7mm is about 25% larger than a .25. The 30 cals are half again bigger and the .375s a bit over double. Size isn't everything but it is something. If big guns weren't better for something there wouldn't be any big guns.;)


I've used Barnes in 6mm, .257, .277, 7mm, .308, .338, .375, .416 and .458. I no longer see any sense in using them on anything smaller than buffalo, and honestly if they don't quit making A-Frames I don't want them there either.

On a phone here so hard to reply easily but I think that is a very valid point.

DF, I have not used them at the those very high velocities-- interesting supposition.

It appears, looking at these results, once a certain bullet mass/S.D. is reached, high speed terminal performance seems to stabilize. And, like George said, he wasn't pushing them at warp speed; I think that's the key point.

My thinking: when you get into larger calibers, you shouldn't see a terminal performance "velocity ceiling". .264 may be the break point caliber. I push 120 TTSX and E-Tips at high speed in the 26 Nos. S.D is .246, up from the sub .20 S.D.'s, 80 gr .257 and .243 TTSXs.

I have moved on from using llight monos at high speed on game, would think Model70guy has as well.

The Nos runs 120 monos at 3,450 fps, not 3,800, a more balanced mass/velocity ratio and quite effective on game. I'm not sure if the higher S.D. or the inability to push a 6.5 120 gr. TTSX at 3,800 fps is the biggest factor. Maybe some of both.

DF

Yes, my bet is that weight (or lack-of).

Bought 1800 of those 87 grain SP's at a gun store closing out years ago (for $5.99 box). Very decisive (and destructive) on the 20-25 coyotes we shot with them. Shot a few hundred prairie dogs with them as well, but had to watch barrel temps closely. They are all gone now, years ago.

Very accurate in the Remington 25-06........but don't know why anyone would want to go after any sort of big game with them....even Roy.

That was the problem I had with them; which is a bit of an Achilles heel for animals that live in the bush. Another is that they slow down like they are dragging an anchor. If they kill any better at close range I was never able to detect it.

Model70Guy,

Thank you for the report, very interesting results.

Do you happen to have a breakdown of how many animals taken with each type of bullet?

Harry Selby for decades guided on or culled everything from elephant to antelope with moderate vel. .416 solid, in effect a frontal area notably
smaller than some of the expanded softs from your .257 Wby, however, what the Rigby especially offered was bullet weight for penetration.

Model70Guy,
Great write up. Thanks for taking the time to share your results.

Having dunked that skull in a shrimp pot, I'll just say I would be amazed to see a black bear skull that size.

Regarding cull hunts, I think a Berger VLD would work well.

Ditto.

Brown bears are larger than blacks...

Saw a gorgeous Toklat bear day before yesterday on the Kisaralik...

Model70,

Thanks for posting. Your results don't surprise me at all, in fact, I would have bet on that outcome. Your study is also corroborated by the study done at Cedar Knoll Hunt club in SC where they found that premium bullets in thin skinned whitetails caused deer to run a good bit further than standard cup and core bullets.

I am using the 130 Nosler AB in my .264 for a compromise between ultimate penetration and tissue destruction - so far so good and runners have not gone very far and have left an adequate blood trail. If I didn't already have the 130s I'd probably just shoot the 120 ballistic tips.

Out of curiosity, how big?

I would be lying if I gave a hard number from memory, but it was very ordinary for a middle-aged sow in this part of AK. The hide was/is about 8'3", very average for middle-age sows in salmon country. I want to say the skull was about 22???

That would make a real nice black bear. Our three family black bears taken on the farm this year scored out at 21 9/16, 20 10/16 and 19 even. I doubt that we could do that again. With the new bear trapping season coming up I suppose we'll get to try.

'Bout this big.

That's a hella farm you have there. You should guide a few hunters.

Backs against a national park.

Great report/info. My results with the 115 Ballistic Tip mirror the OP's.

Launched at a tad over 3400fps from my 257 Wby, the 115 Ballistic Tip holds up surprisingly well. It's an unbelievable killer. I've had more DRT's with this cartridge/bullet combo than any other. It just flat turns the lights out. Like the OP, I've also used the 110 AB with H1000 and experienced nearly the same result. Quick kills similar to the NBT, but with the occasional unexplained pressure excursions. Because of this, I've just stuck with the 115. It seems to hold up just as well at the 110 AB and it's consistently more accurate.

As for the Barnes, I shy away from them. The only thing I've ever shot with a Barnes was a hog using the 80 TTSX from my 25-06. It dropped him instantly, but it was a head shot, so any bullet would have most likely worked. I've just read too many stories of lost game using Barnes bullets. I prefer the animal not to run after being shot. Here in South Texas, that can be somewhat of a problem. Tracking a wounded animal through cactus and thick, rattlesnake infested scrub brush is not an ideal scenario for me.

Looks like a photo post fail. It looked good on the Preview, really.

Ok, so it didn't fail,,,

Talus, not the greatest picture but you'll get the idea. If it works, still learning the new picture procedure.


https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/galleries/12216520/calebs-bear


https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/galleries/12216520/calebs-bear

That is a good bear!

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/galleries/13023389/sons-bear#comments

Just as a follow up, the bear rug showed up a couple days ago. I'm 6' 1". The bear is still 8' between the front finger nails and 7' 9" nose to tail. He was 8' 4 " when green.

In my limited expierance when a mono sheds its petals they kill pretty poorly. In addition I have found several shed petals in the entrance wound that never made it to the chest cavity so I dont know if I buy the argument that shedding petals decreases the time it takes for an animal to expire.

I’m surprised about the TTSX, I’ve killed many pigs with them.