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Originally Posted by Gatogrizz27
The TTSX failures may be caused by them shedding petals when driven at that velocity. If that is the cast they basically become FMJ bullets.


First of all, what ya think those "shedding petals" are doing? I'd say they's flying all around, messing up stuff. Go check out the Cutting Edge Bullet web site. Those guys make monos designed to fling off ALL the petals, the core blasting on thru. They're deadly.

So, from that reasoning, a Partition, after the front half messes up a bunch of tissue, the back half becomes an "FMJ"... whistle

Well, I reckon it does... grin

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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by Gatogrizz27
The TTSX failures may be caused by them shedding petals when driven at that velocity. If that is the cast they basically become FMJ bullets.


First of all, what ya think those "shedding petals" are doing? I'd say they's flying all around, messing up stuff. Go check out the Cutting Edge Bullet web site. Those guys make monos designed to fling off ALL the petals, the core blasting on thru. They're deadly.

So, from that reasoning, a Partition, after the front half messes up a bunch of tissue, the back half becomes an "FMJ"... whistle

Well, I reckon it does... grin

DF



I did a 111 water buffalo cull a few years ago in Armhem land in which CEB Safari Raptors got pitted against TSXs and A-Frames. They didn't win.


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Ive heard some wacko tales about CEB raptors e.g;

"Last year I had a hunter hit a bull facing 3/4 on on the near side just off the front shoulder with a 370gn Raptor in 416.
The impact drove the bull's head up in the air and tipped him over head over ass, quite spectacular."


No hunting bullet has ever been able to lift a hulking buff over end to end, till CEB came along ...LOL




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I read where an Africa hunter said the CEB Raptor wasn't his choice for thick brush. He said they flew apart when hitting brush. Makes sense.

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I'm conflicted about the TTSX's performance in your report and my experience with them which has been very good in 7mm, 30/06, and the 375 H&H. No run-offs other than very short distances and most DRT. I have seen some narrow wound channels though and even through soft tissue (lungs).

I wonder if it has something to do with that weight in the 257? Or "that batch" for example?

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And pretty obviously, I was driving those respective Barnes a lot slower than you were.

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Originally Posted by George_De_Vries_3rd

And pretty obviously, I was driving those respective Barnes a lot slower than you were.

George,

I experienced something like that, 80 gr. TTSX at 3,600 fps out of my .240 Wby., not nearly 80 gr. at 3,900 fps,

I think the effect of speed on bullets can be a major factor regarding optimal bullet performance.

I try to match bullet design and velocity for the task at hand. The best testing lab is in the field, oberving how well bullets kill game animals.

Conventional wisdom has it that there is no mono velocity ceiling. Theoretically, maybe not; a mono won't blow up. Practically speaking, there seems to be a functional velocity ceiling in cases like this, low S.D. monos at warp speed.

Terminal performance is the gold standard, all else is speculation.

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Originally Posted by George_De_Vries_3rd

I'm conflicted about the TTSX's performance in your report and my experience with them which has been very good in 7mm, 30/06, and the 375 H&H. No run-offs other than very short distances and most DRT. I have seen some narrow wound channels though and even through soft tissue (lungs).

I wonder if it has something to do with that weight in the 257? Or "that batch" for example?


Maybe there is a simpler answer. The frontal area of a 7mm is about 25% larger than a .25. The 30 cals are half again bigger and the .375s a bit over double. Size isn't everything but it is something. If big guns weren't better for something there wouldn't be any big guns.;)


I've used Barnes in 6mm, .257, .277, 7mm, .308, .338, .375, .416 and .458. I no longer see any sense in using them on anything smaller than buffalo, and honestly if they don't quit making A-Frames I don't want them there either.


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On a phone here so hard to reply easily but I think that is a very valid point.

DF, I have not used them at the those very high velocities-- interesting supposition.

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It appears, looking at these results, once a certain bullet mass/S.D. is reached, high speed terminal performance seems to stabilize. And, like George said, he wasn't pushing them at warp speed; I think that's the key point.

My thinking: when you get into larger calibers, you shouldn't see a terminal performance "velocity ceiling". .264 may be the break point caliber. I push 120 TTSX and E-Tips at high speed in the 26 Nos. S.D is .246, up from the sub .20 S.D.'s, 80 gr .257 and .243 TTSXs.

I have moved on from using llight monos at high speed on game, would think Model70guy has as well.

The Nos runs 120 monos at 3,450 fps, not 3,800, a more balanced mass/velocity ratio and quite effective on game. I'm not sure if the higher S.D. or the inability to push a 6.5 120 gr. TTSX at 3,800 fps is the biggest factor. Maybe some of both.

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Yes, my bet is that weight (or lack-of).

Originally Posted by George_De_Vries_3rd


I wonder if it has something to do with that weight in the 257?



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Bought 1800 of those 87 grain SP's at a gun store closing out years ago (for $5.99 box). Very decisive (and destructive) on the 20-25 coyotes we shot with them. Shot a few hundred prairie dogs with them as well, but had to watch barrel temps closely. They are all gone now, years ago.

Very accurate in the Remington 25-06........but don't know why anyone would want to go after any sort of big game with them....even Roy.

[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by AussieGunWriter
A bullet that gets lost in the latest and greatest shuffle is the 87gn Hornady.
It was Roy E Weatherby's favorite and I used it on Fallow, goats and pigs in a .257 Weatherby and it did work very well.
Also tried it in my .25/06 and would definitely consider it for White Tail sized game.

In the Weatherby, I loaded it to 3800fps and in the '06, up to 3600fos in my 26" barrel.
JW


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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
I read where an Africa hunter said the CEB Raptor wasn't his choice for thick brush. He said they flew apart when hitting brush. Makes sense.

DF



That was the problem I had with them; which is a bit of an Achilles heel for animals that live in the bush. Another is that they slow down like they are dragging an anchor. If they kill any better at close range I was never able to detect it.


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Model70Guy,

Thank you for the report, very interesting results.

Do you happen to have a breakdown of how many animals taken with each type of bullet?

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Originally Posted by Model70Guy

... The frontal area of a 7mm is about 25% larger than a .25. The 30 cals are half again bigger and the .375s a bit over double.
Size isn't everything but it is something. If big guns weren't better for something there wouldn't be any big guns.;)


Harry Selby for decades guided on or culled everything from elephant to antelope with moderate vel. .416 solid, in effect a frontal area notably
smaller than some of the expanded softs from your .257 Wby, however, what the Rigby especially offered was bullet weight for penetration.


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Model70Guy,
Great write up. Thanks for taking the time to share your results.


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Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by a12
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Amazing to me how radically different bullets perform for different people. My son has shot quite a bit with the 80gr TTSX in a 25-06. Even a brown bear. Total penetration and mostly DRT.

I have only watched about 30-35 Accubonds used and have yet to see a pass-through, even on smallish stuff. Watched a Kodiak bear take four 270gr Accubonds in the ribs from a 375H&H... all were caught.

A lot more questions than answers...


And you let him shoot a big bear with an 80 grain bullet? Isn't that like letting a kid play on an LA freeway?! Haha

Not really a stunt and he is an adult, so he got to choose. The bear was not really much more than a monster black bear for size... 150 yards broadside and unaware.


Having dunked that skull in a shrimp pot, I'll just say I would be amazed to see a black bear skull that size.

Regarding cull hunts, I think a Berger VLD would work well.


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Originally Posted by Ringman
Model70Guy,

That is some interesting info. Thanks for taking the time to post it.



Ditto.


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Originally Posted by Talus_in_Arizona
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by a12
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Amazing to me how radically different bullets perform for different people. My son has shot quite a bit with the 80gr TTSX in a 25-06. Even a brown bear. Total penetration and mostly DRT.

I have only watched about 30-35 Accubonds used and have yet to see a pass-through, even on smallish stuff. Watched a Kodiak bear take four 270gr Accubonds in the ribs from a 375H&H... all were caught.

A lot more questions than answers...


And you let him shoot a big bear with an 80 grain bullet? Isn't that like letting a kid play on an LA freeway?! Haha

Not really a stunt and he is an adult, so he got to choose. The bear was not really much more than a monster black bear for size... 150 yards broadside and unaware.


Having dunked that skull in a shrimp pot, I'll just say I would be amazed to see a black bear skull that size.

Regarding cull hunts, I think a Berger VLD would work well.

Brown bears are larger than blacks...

Saw a gorgeous Toklat bear day before yesterday on the Kisaralik...


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Model70,

Thanks for posting. Your results don't surprise me at all, in fact, I would have bet on that outcome. Your study is also corroborated by the study done at Cedar Knoll Hunt club in SC where they found that premium bullets in thin skinned whitetails caused deer to run a good bit further than standard cup and core bullets.

I am using the 130 Nosler AB in my .264 for a compromise between ultimate penetration and tissue destruction - so far so good and runners have not gone very far and have left an adequate blood trail. If I didn't already have the 130s I'd probably just shoot the 120 ballistic tips.

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