The hunter, Aaron Nielsen one of the most experienced out there, was way out of position and while he had to make the shot, his PH was FORWARD of the line of fire. What a recipe for disaster.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
I spoke with him a couple of years ago at DSC convention. He was quite non-chalant about it. Incidentally, the rifle was a 458...
Another video that shows how a charging animal can be "turned" by application(s) of big, heavy bullets. It also shows what happens if that same big, heavy bullet is not placed exactly right to begin with.
Ed
Great illustration, Ed. As the hunter says near the end, "This was my first time hunting with this double rifle", and he points to where he hit it with his first shot, which is well back of the rib cage. If you're gonna shoot 'em in the guts, you need something like an 88mm. But even that won't work if you're unfamiliar with it!
This probably belongs in the Africa forum rather than here, but I'm on my iPad and the switch is hard.
When I was preparing for my buff hunt in '15, our 24HCF compadre Ingwe--bless his black heart--advised me to shoot at least 500 rounds in practice through my African rifle. Kimber Caprivi 375 H&H Mag. I ended up shooting close to 700 rounds in 2 months as it happens. But by the time I went to Zimbabwe I by God knew that rifle. My only qualm about it was that it was only a 375; but I was reassured significantly by the fact that my PH would be toting a 470 Rigby, so if it came to a charge, the greater stopping power of his rifle would be available. I still stand by that decision, and when I go back next year or the one after that, I'll take my 375 with the same or even greater confidence. And if I am blessed with the opportunity to acquire a big double at some time in the future, I'll make sure I have 500+ rounds through it before I pack my gear for the trip!
This video is illustrative of the potential danger of being tempted by the mystique of the double rifle. I've hunted with SXS shotguns my whole life, and when I meet other hunters or clays shooters it's amazing to hear how many say they can't hit anything with a double unless it's an O/U... and then these same guys will start bragging about the Heym or British SXS rifle they bought to hunt DG in Africa! If you can't kill doves or partridge with a SXS scattergun, you have no business taking a SXS rifle for DG. Bore size and big bullets and energy and mystique can never make up for proper shot placement, but as Phil says, it's nice if you can have it all.
End of rant.
Last edited by DocRocket; 08/10/17.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
So where does a rib cage " leak". If it does leak ? How can one use the diaphragm to breath? When on enters the thoracic cavity with a knife why does air rush in? Thanks.
Lungs function exactly like a bellows. External motive force is applied in one direction and air goes out. Applied in the opposite direction, air goes in.
I pneumo-thorax s simply a hole in the chest (possibly the lung(s) also, but not necessarily)allowing air to enter the chest (not the lungs). The first diaphragm cycle pulls some air into the lung and some into the chest. The difference between pre-pneumo and post-pneumo results in some lung deflation. As more cycles go by more lung deflation results unless the hole is plugged.
Generally for our purposes we penetrate one or both lungs and damage pressurized blood vessels which also begins to pressurize the chest which deflates the lung(s) some more. Even an extreme pneumo in which both lungs are extremely damaged and instantly are deflated or completely broken apart into red soup and the heart remains intact to pump the chest full does not guarantee a DRT. The animal still can remain functional for a few to maybe ten seconds after the wound, although with each second passing the capability is decreasing . With less extreme pneumos, the animal can remain functional from minutes to hours. With competent medical help and the right tools available, a pneumo can be reversed provided lung damage is not too severe.
A pneumo can also result from a rib breaking and puncturing the lung(s) without a hole in the chest.
SOmeone above mentioned lungs as muscle. They are not muscle. They are highly vascular sacs that intake and expel air in response to increasing or decreasing chest volume.
Bore size and big bullets and energy and mystique can never make up for proper shot placement
Doc, you need them ALL in this instance. That proper shot placement on that charging bull would have meant squat had you been carrying a 223 "AI"...
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
The hunter, Aaron Nielsen one of the most experienced out there, was way out of position and while he had to make the shot, his PH was FORWARD of the line of fire. What a recipe for disaster.
I saw that and neither the PH nor client would have chosen that scenario but....
sometimes 'stuff' happens. I and I'm sure they are very glad things worked out well.
The hunter, Aaron Nielsen one of the most experienced out there, was way out of position and while he had to make the shot, his PH was FORWARD of the line of fire. What a recipe for disaster.
In addition to that little fiasco, Nielsen's gun handling as they tromped around would make me VERY upset if I were walking in front of him...
The hunter, Aaron Nielsen one of the most experienced out there, was way out of position and while he had to make the shot, his PH was FORWARD of the line of fire. What a recipe for disaster.
I thought the same thing. I'll bet he (the PH)felt the concussion and has some ringing ears.
These threads about dangerous game and the guns used are certainly entertaining! Doesn't take long to see who has experience and who doesn't. One thing that hasn't been mentioned much is that it is very rare for an animal to charge....even in Africa. I guided a very experienced PH last fall that also does a lot of filming for other African PHs. He told me in all his years there he was involved in one real charge. ( a cape buff) The thing to remember is that 99.9% of the time a big game animal does charge, some boneheaded human is responsible. Usually this is because the animal was wounded first. The biggest two reasons guys miss or make a bad shot is because of buck fever, or they are afraid of their rifle. If I had a dollar for every grizzly Ive saw guys miss with their first shot I would be rich. I can't figure out how to post pictures on here, but I have a picture that says a lot....its a picture of George Davis with a record book interior grizzly that had been wounded and he sorted out. George was easily one of the most experienced guides in the north. He guided full time for over 40 years. I was lucky enough to get to apprentice under George my first season in the mountains and George never left camp without his old model 94 30-30. He cleaned up more messes with that gun than most guys will ever see in their life time. No I am not advocating you use a 30-30......my only point is that you don't need a 460.
Im off to the bush in the morning for a short hunt of my own before my guiding season starts. Ive got a pocketful of tags, and a grizzly is among them. While Im not really looking for a bear if a good one shows up I would take it. My rifle of choice for this solo hunt?? A short Ruger in 308 Winchester. Any bets on whether I come back
The hunter, Aaron Nielsen one of the most experienced out there, was way out of position and while he had to make the shot, his PH was FORWARD of the line of fire. What a recipe for disaster.
As I watched it for the first time, I thought Nielsen was going to shoot the PH. Looking at the angles I don't think he had much clearance between his bullet's path and the PH's left arm.
Apparently, the PH got off a shot before the camera came back on, but it was Nielsen's first shot into the charge that really turned that bull, then the PH's shot and Nielsen's last shot.
Also, I watched the clip several times, trying to discern the caliber of rifle the PH was using. It looked like either a .458 Lott or a .470 Rigby, and either one puts a lot of energy out in some heavy bullets.
Nielsen's last shot would have also been a great first shot.
You can see the obvious adrenaline reactions in both Nielsen and the PH, but I think the PH was far more affected, which is natural, given that the bull was charging him, and not Nielsen. It looked to me as if the PH was still having his life flash before his eyes even several minutes later.
The shots on that elephant didn't impress me, either. I'm not entirely sure where he hit that elephant the first two shots. Heart and then an attempted brain shot?
Ed
"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell
...Im off to the bush in the morning for a short hunt of my own before my guiding season starts. Ive got a pocketful of tags, and a grizzly is among them. While Im not really looking for a bear if a good one shows up I would take it. My rifle of choice for this solo hunt?? A short Ruger in 308 Winchester. Any bets on whether I come back
You, sir, suck! Am I envious? You bet your azz I am!
No flies on the .308 Win.. If you don't come back it probably won't be because of you choice of calibers. Wouldn't be my first choice for sorting out even an Interior Grizzly in heavy brush, but it will do the job. What bullets are you going to use?
Ed
"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell
Well the boys at Buffalo Bore told me that the 150 grain Barnes TTSX are the ticket for really big animals with the 308. I trust those guys, but couldn't find Barnes 150s in Whitehorse. So Im using my old standbys the NP 165 grain. It works.
First of all I would like to clarify " what is your intent"
As a DAT and a DVM. As in a Dumd Ass Tanker and a Doctor of Veterinary Medince I have a strange level of training. Often I will assume everyone on the campfire has had the same........my bad.
I took armor gunnery training as a true delight , and if could have spent more time shooting in a main battle tank I would have never became a Doctor of Veterinary a Medicine. I would have stayed in the Army.
When people call me out for not understanding ballistics, physics, physiology, or how to behave around aggressive large ruminants I find it interesting.
My intent is as Einstein said. " To truly understand something one must be able to explain it simply"
This is why I post.
It is not to gain ego or belittle other members.
As a Veterinarian I took an oath ........ 1. Allieviate animal suffering 2. Conserve Livestock resources 3. Protect public safety
If any of my posts on this forum are contrary to these principles please point them out to me as I will truly be ashamed.
But you are truly correct in that there are dissimilarity between a tank turret and a lung field, thoracic cavity, or " rib cage" however you may want to define it. This is why I believe the principles of hydrodynamic kinetic energy allows a a 5 pound sabot round the ability to disable a 63 TON main battle tank, where the same principles will not work as well on an animal. This is also why in the M60 A3 battle tank I operated for the U.S. Army we were given several options of ordinance for the differing situations possible. But alas I am completely ignorant and un informed on ballistics. Thanks for all the education.
A. The thorax in especially a ruminant is compartmentalized, I have never been able to dissect it, but time and time agin I am told there is a mediastinum that separates the lungs so they can operate in the ruminat seperately ( as if one is compromised)
1. There also may be a separate fascia plane, and seperating the heart from the left lung field. 2. There are also bronchial tubes and a trachea in the lung field that can prior to colllapse, allow external air to enter the compromised tissue. Kind of like leaving a hatch open in the turret. This should buffer the hydrodynamic effect of the projectile.
B. The thorax, unlike the turret, without massive trauma, has the ability to seal its self. Ruminants are legend for the ability to clot bleeding.
So even though a perhaps 5 pound projectile can totally stop and disable a 63 TON main battle tank does not mean the technology and physics behind the ordinance will work as well on dangerous game.
On reflection it is a lot easier killing a ruminant, compared to trying to keep it alive. However unless you got a good heeler dog, u better not be the slowest human out in the pen when they charge.
As things get tighter and tighter in the confrontations with dangerous large animals the considerations of elegant harvest as opposed to time to elude or escape change. The same goes with armor warfare. But like I say to Discuss armor warfare or my pointed out complete ignorance of ballistics or animal physiology with those who know so much of such things is perhaps contrary to the security of the country.
Perhaps I am out of line...........oh well I am sure I will hear about it soon.
Still pondering if I should get a Ruger number one. Then my 45 70 s can get cooked up another notch. ( as Emeril Lagassi would say).
Last edited by Angus1895; 08/10/17.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
Well the boys at Buffalo Bore told me that the 150 grain Barnes TTSX are the ticket for really big animals with the 308. I trust those guys, but couldn't find Barnes 150s in Whitehorse. So Im using my old standbys the NP 165 grain. It works.
No flies on the 165 NP, either. I have a load using 165 TSX that two .308's I own absolutely love. The load is 44.0 gr of Varget and gives me slightly less than MOA for five shots out of both rifles. What's not to love? The only reason I'm using TSX instead of TTSX is that my LGS didn't have the TTSX when I went to buy bullets.
Ed
"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell
First of all I would like to clarify " what is your intent"
As a DAT and a DVM. As in a Dumd Ass Tanker and a Doctor of Veterinary Medince I have a strange level of training. Often I will assume everyone on the campfire has had the same........my bad.
I took armor gunnery training as a true delight , and if could have spent more time shooting in a main battle tank I would have never became a Doctor of Veterinary a Medicine. I would have stayed in the Army.
When people call me out for not understanding ballistics, physics, physiology, or how to behave around aggressive large ruminants I find it interesting.
My intent is as Einstein said. " To truly understand something one must be able to explain it simply"
This is why I post.
Good posts.
Like tanks, I find Cape buffalo have more armor and are tougher to stop when attacking them head on,
"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." Han Solo
Kill video, with dangerous game and plains game. The elephant that starts at the 5:20 mark is stopped and then killed. To me, this is the classic definition of a "stopping" rifle in action. CNS shot that missed, but allowed enough time to finish the animal.....safely. Andy3
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
