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#12202474 - 08/12/17 Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers  
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The following is kind of long, but worth reading if you're into training and/or follow the current firearms training arena……Spaulding is a voice of reason in an increasingly illogical industry……





What is to follow will fire up a large number of people! So be it. I’ve been doing this a LONG time…longer than most and I know what I am talking about…and I am flabbergasted by what I see…

I have not paid much attention, in the past, to what is happening in the training industry...I probably should have. I spent the vast majority of my time training law enforcement officers and did not really take notice of what the legally armed citizen was doing. When I decided to start my own training company, I started to focus on what the armed citizen needed, but I was wrong. I should not have looked at what they WANTED. I didn’t take notice…I do now...

Before 9-11, there were just a few training institutions and about 10-12 traveling instructors...I got to them all and had a good handle on what was being taught. Then our country was attacked, two wars began and a large number of folks came out of the military and changed the training industry, I believe forever. Focus shifted from the concealed handgun to the M-4 carbine and if you were not former Special Ops you didn't know [bleep]. If you weren't former Special Ops and wanted to instruct, no problem! You just act like you were/are.

Defending the home or what to do in a parking lot attack moved to battlefield tactics. Never mind much of the battlefield stuff was/is inappropriate for law enforcement or the legally armed citizen...it was/is really cool to do! Gear became the primary concern and many felt as long as they looked good, it did not matter if they could shoot good. Many potential students are real gullible, was the thought. They were right…just watch You Tube. What garners the attention of the current shooting community is truly amazing! I recently noted Col. Jeff Cooper’s video on The Combat Mindset had around 27,000 views. However, a young girl in short shorts shooting a rifle had over 3 million! What the hell??

"Tacti-cool" went from a derogatory term to main stream commentary, "operator" was applied to everyone who trained with a gun and someone decided it was a good idea to place students down range and shoot past them to get them "used to in bound gunfire"…it enhanced their “battlefield experience”. The term CQB was applied to everything from room clearing to hand to hand combat to the type of gloves you were wearing.

A trend began to start shooting people to the ground with full magazines of ammo instead of shooting for a visual response and then evaluating. Force was no longer judicious, it was terminal! While effective is it wise? Consider the video of the officer shooting the teenage suspect to the ground in Chicago and the subsequent public response. I don’t know if the officer was taught to do this, but is it good idea? Maybe on the battlefield but on the streets of America? A thought only…


Instructors must now wear 5.11 (Arcteryk, Kuhl or whatever is currently in, I can’t keep up), beards and talk with a certain lingo. If they do not, they are considered "out of touch". I had lunch with a friend recently who is a current member of a Tier One SMU who told me much of what is currently popular in the tactical training realm is not current...the wars have made them reevaluate and create new tactics and techniques and that much of it is not appropriate for anything but the battlefield. Is it important for information on tactics and techniques to be current? Is it important that it should be “judicious”? Is it important that as long as you get to wear cool gear everything is ok? If an instructor talks and dresses a certain way, does that make them qualified to teach? Is it important that we might be spending time and money on skills sets that will not really help us with the threats we are likely to face? Do students know what they need versus what hey want? It’s their money, right??


Today's younger shooters are some rude folks. All you have to do is read the stuff they post on line. Social Media has made instant fame possible and folks who are now driving the training industry have done nothing more than “type a good game” on line, recycling information they read elsewhere. Few have experienced the lessons they preach which offers a unique perspective when teaching the skills… they just put a video up and their expertise is established. Don’t forget the short shorts or maybe a bikini…those really help viewership!

Have you taken the time to look into the backgrounds of some of the "movers and shakers" that "rock" (not my term) the training industry? Do you care? Are you a grown up acting like a teenager as you "fanboy" a particular instructor? I’m too old for hero worship…most are but some still do it. This is so bizarre to me…its like being in Junior High all over again…

I never paid attention to what many of the instructors claim, but some of my friends who are now retired from the military and intelligence communities do as it matters to them when someone says they are something they are not! They have the contacts to look into the claims these instructors make about their backgrounds and I admit to being greatly saddened as it hurts an industry I dearly love. Interestingly, the people who are the rudest, boisterous and in your face are the one's with the least background. They are like bullies, the more obnoxious they act, the more people stay clear of them and let them have their way. Expect an "offensive" by these retired professionals sometime in the future as they are getting disgusted.


I remember when instructors would get together at the large training conferences (ASLET, ILEETA or IALEFI) and exchange ideas. I learned a considerable amount sitting in the hallway of a hotel with a group of like mined people. As a matter of fact, we used to joke about “most of the learning occurred in the hallway”. We would review recent incidents, talk about what we had learned in the past year (or whatever) and talked about where we might have it wrong and what we needed to change. I can’t remember a discussion on how to make something look cool or what type of clothing we wore when teaching.

Now it seems instructors are at war with each other. What the hell?? "I'm right, they're wrong, my ideas are best and theirs suck" even though...if you look closely...the ideas and concepts are not that dissimilar. Its about money and ego...if not, instructors would not be fighting amongst themselves so much while building armies of followers to "defend their honor" on the internet. They would be exchanging ideas outside of their instructional cliques.

The number of people who call themselves “instructors” is now HUGE. It is amazing how it has gown in just a decade. From the local folks who are doing CCW certification to the top tier tactical/SWAT/Spec Ops instructors…I have never seen so many people vying for your money in the almost 40 years I have been doing this. What is the quality of their training? Do students know enough to know when they are being fleeced? I have seen some really strange stuff being taught. Students come to me in classes and show me what they have been taught elsewhere and I am speechless…that used to be hard to do to me, but not any longer. I see no reason to teach a barrel roll or back flip with a gun in your hand…

What about some of the on line debates? Do we really care if one person prefers a red dot while the other likes iron sights? Why do people or groups try so hard to prove that others are “wrong”? Appendix carry, SERPA holsters, Kydex versus leather, irons versus optics…is it critical we try and impose our thoughts and desires about such things on others? Ego abounds. Do you think that maybe…just maybe…what might work for you will not work for someone else? Should it be about SOLUTIONS for the students or imposing our instructional will and satisfying our ego?

I admit to being a bit mystified about instructor conduct…when did it become important for an instructor to be a cultural icon? When did an instructor have to be this perfect human being? Does an instructor really look that bad if they have an ND or miss a shot? Is their wardrobe really that important? Is it ok to wear a pair of blue jeans and running shoes when teaching a class? Shouldn’t it be more about dressing comfortably for the weather conditions at hand? Shoot good, feel good or look good but not all three? What the hell??


I admit I am in the fall of my life and the winter of my teaching career, but I still care about the quality of instructors and the well being of the training industry. It’s just too damn important to let it fall into chaos! While certain individuals seek fame and wealth, the people who will be hurt are the good guys and gals who need solid information, tactics and techniques to save their lives and the lives of their loved ones. These people look to their instructors for guidance and solutions, not finger pointing and hate speech…certainly not fashion advice.

Of course, I’m probably wrong here, as many student level shooters seem to relish it when noteworthy people get into arguments on line. They line up behind their favorite and launch attacks back and forth. At least the instructors stand up as themselves and offer their arguments. The student level offers hate-filled garbage hiding behind a pseudonym. In my generation, we called this type of person a “pussy”.

Again, it reminds me of junior high where someone talking behind someone’s back did so out of jealousy. It’s the same here…the internet commandos want to raise their status and profile…you know, be “famous”… but do not want to spend years on the street/battlefield, spending time training and teaching while spending money doing so. They want it NOW! Just like a five year old. They want instant Internet fame and guess what? They get it!

If I fold up Handgun Combatives tomorrow few will notice (well, those that have enrolled in a class this year might get a little bent!) as there are legions of people out there waiting to step in and fill the void. That’s ok as long as what students are getting is what they TRULY need to WIN! Not just look cool on the range or get to pretend they are a commando for a few days. Is that is training to you? Is the course you are taking hour after hour of drills that entertain or are skills being built? Many do not know what the difference is…

Interesting side note: When I post a blog such as this one, I actually HURT my training business as students who want be pretend to be something they are look elsewhere! I don’t care…the truth hurts and I will not pretend to be something I am not in order to make $$. I must look myself in he mirror every day…

Some will like what I have said, some will MF me as they are more interested in what they want reality to be, not what it is and what I have written here interferes with their view of combat (reality)…or they are just playing their role of instructional fan boy. Good boy, good boy…come here and let me scratch you behind the ear! Good boy…

That’s ok...it is their right...a right I spent my adult life defending, but do me a favor…take a close look at the haters and fan kiddies and see why they disparage what is said here. Do they have a “dog in the hunt”? Hopefully you will take the time to give critical thought about what you are spending your time and money doing to defend your life! It’s a real ‘what the hell” moment. Combative firearms training is a lifestyle commitment to personal security…its not the same as playing golf or idolizing a movie star…


The blindness from subjectivity is indistinguishable from the darkness of ignorance.
AIH 300 BP 2
#12202496 - 08/12/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: gmoats]  
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Do you have a link for that? There's another interest of mine where the same thing is happening in abstract. I'd like to be able to show others the comparison.

Tom


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Here be dragons ...
#12202508 - 08/12/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: T_O_M]  
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The blindness from subjectivity is indistinguishable from the darkness of ignorance.
#12202516 - 08/12/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: gmoats]  
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Interesting thought,
While some of the best people shoot and are in the business,
guns just seem to attract the big mouth arseholes.
The less informed, the bigger the mouth.


Clinging to our guns and God.....Yeah an Obama quote, but it fits.
#12202560 - 08/12/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: gmoats]  
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While there are some salient points made, the entire thing reeks of the mumblings of a old curmudgeon, stuck in the past.

#12202625 - 08/12/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: liliysdad]  
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Originally Posted by liliysdad
While there are some salient points made, the entire thing reeks of the mumblings of a old curmudgeon, stuck in the past.

…."old curmudgeon"…….probably……………"stuck in the past"…….not hardly. Going to his Youtubes or Panteao productions will disincline you to question his relevance to today's world of self defense training.


The blindness from subjectivity is indistinguishable from the darkness of ignorance.
#12202664 - 08/12/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: gmoats]  
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Originally Posted by gmoats
The following is kind of long, but worth reading if you're into training and/or follow the current firearms training arena……Spaulding is a voice of reason in an increasingly illogical industry……

(redacted)



Agreed. Aside from training a few CCW folks, my 26 years of training was also LE. The same effect has been encroaching there for years.


'What's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak minded'

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#12202739 - 08/12/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: gmoats]  
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The biggest problem that I've identified in the training industry is that so few instructors understand how to teach, and IMO that's because so few of them really know what they're doing in the first place.

Running shooters though drills is not the same as teaching people to shoot, but it's a lot easier.

The best class I've ever taken was taught by a total dick of a guy in raggedy clothes who shouted obscenities and mocked me for two days. But he knew how to shoot and how to diagnose shooting problems like no one else I've ever met.


Originally Posted by SBTCO
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
#12202741 - 08/12/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: gmoats]  
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And I think the instructors reflect their students. Very few people are actually interested in being great shooters, so the industry caters to looks and fun drills.


Originally Posted by SBTCO
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
#12202752 - 08/12/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: Bluedreaux]  
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"When I was a kid I thought that quicksand was going to be a much bigger problem than it is."
#12202818 - 08/12/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: gmoats]  
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I think every generation feels some compulsion to reinvent the wheel, but this silliness we’re seeing today in the firearms training community got its start in the early 90’s. Anyone and everyone with an MOS within arm’s reach of 11B all of sudden had some imagined “credibility” with the Gulf Wars as a back-drop.

The uninitiated have always been impressed by the least little thing but our modern culture - as a whole - has lost its ability to critically think through much of anything which results in an atmosphere that’s a breeding ground for half-truths and total BS.

Personally, I think things are just now really starting to get cranked up. Look at all the mindless gizmos and gimmicks being introduced almost weekly to the gun culture.

Cooper used to refer to most gun magazines as the “funny papers”, but their foolishness pales in comparison to the dip-schitery being propagated by folks through their training venues, the internet and social media.

When you don’t have anything meaningful (or new) to offer, you’ve got to have a “hook” and regrettably that’s what too many folks in the firearms training community are offering …. a gimmick.

But, I’ve been on this planet long enough to know that lots of folks don’t mind being deceived if it plays to their fantasies and most are even willing to pay for it.


The uninitiated are always easily impressed.
#12203084 - 08/12/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: gmoats]  
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I learned, after many years as a student and a teacher, that learning to shoot well is much easier than learning to teach well. While DS is a very competent instructor I think he paints w/ a very broad brush and his memory of the past differs from mine. A lot of those old school IALEFFI etc instructors were full of crap and totally doctrinaire w/ nary an original thought. Civilian shooters were considered lightweights and referred to as holster sniffers

Today's student has a much better choice of instruction from competent instructors than ever before but buyer beware. One needs to understand and master the mechanics of shooting before worrying about tactics. In the last 10 years I have been fortunate to train w/ 3 gifted teachers, Paul Howe, Kyle Defoor and Craig Douglas and had to unlearn much of what I already knew to progress. You have to maintain an open mind and set goals before choosing the person to help you meet those goals. If you do your homework and keep trying and learning you will learn the difference between an instructor and a teacher.


mike r


Don't wish it were easier
Wish you were better

Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that.
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#12203114 - 08/12/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: Bluedreaux]  
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Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
The biggest problem that I've identified in the training industry is that so few instructors understand how to teach, and IMO that's because so few of them really know what they're doing in the first place.

Running shooters though drills is not the same as teaching people to shoot, but it's a lot easier.

The best class I've ever taken was taught by a total dick of a guy in raggedy clothes who shouted obscenities and mocked me for two days. But he knew how to shoot and how to diagnose shooting problems like no one else I've ever met.


This is big in the Army if you go to any firing range you'll see a lot of drills, but very little teaching.

#12203629 - 08/12/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: liliysdad]  
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Originally Posted by liliysdad
While there are some salient points made, the entire thing reeks of the mumblings of a old curmudgeon, stuck in the past.

I read your posts because you are not trying to attract attention, but because you have salient information on a subject or you have posed some damned good questions. Here we vehemently disagree. I've been a law-enforcement firearms trainer since 1991. I have been a CC instructor since 1995, first in Texas and now in Illinois. This guy may express his points in a curmudgeon fashion, but he's right. I peruse You Tube for people showing other people performing absolutely stupid things with a handgun.

The latest is there is a target stand at 10 yds.

A PERSON STANDS DIRECTLY BESIDE EACH SIDE OF THE TARGET STAND AS THE SHOOTER DRAWS AND FIRES A FULL MAGAZINE INTO THE PAPER TARGET, HIS ROUNDS IMPACTING A MERE FOOT FROM THE TWO IDIOTS STANDING BESIDE HIS TARGET. THEY ARE NOT WEARING ANY PROTECTIVE GEAR.

Maybe I'm an old curmudgeon too. What those three idiots did borders on criminal behavior. If he shot and killed one of them he would pray for just a Voluntary Manslaughter charge, and he would never own anything again when they were through with him in civil court.


"...the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.." - Thomas Jefferson, 11/13/1787



#12204044 - 08/12/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: gmoats]  
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I completely and whole heartedly agree there are idiots in the firearms training world, both within the law enforcement world and outside of it. Hell, I have attended classes instructed by many of them, both on the agency's dime, and my own. Where I part ways with Mr. Spaulding, however, is the where he seems to believe that unless the entire instructor field is on the same page, teaching the same material, anarchy ensues. Law Enforcement trainers, and not solely those in the firearms world, are renowned for denigrating those who dare teach methods that differ from the status quo. Attitudes like this is why my state's law enforcement academy was still teaching Weaver only as late as 2005.

Luckily, the new crop of instructors that fit squarely within the mold described by Spaulding have made available training that falls well outside the bounds of the norm. Yes, there are a considerable amount of snake oil salesman, and yes, many of them are just plain goofy. Hidden within them, however, are those who don't pretend to seek the approval of the establishment, and who are not beholden to tradition. Silly is silly, unsafe is unsafe....but bucking the system has merit.

I don't for a minute mean to demean the contributions made by the likes of legacy instructors like Bill Jeans, Lewis Awerbuck, and Mr. Spaulding himself. What they have contributed to the shooting and combatives world is absolutely priceless. Without the courage to try new things, and the confidence to thumb one's nose at the establishment, Col. Cooper and his ilk would never have become mainstream, and this whole mess would have never happened.

#12204087 - 08/12/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: liliysdad]  
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Originally Posted by liliysdad
I completely and whole heartedly agree there are idiots in the firearms training world, both within the law enforcement world and outside of it. Hell, I have attended classes instructed by many of them, both on the agency's dime, and my own. Where I part ways with Mr. Spaulding, however, is the where he seems to believe that unless the entire instructor field is on the same page, teaching the same material, anarchy ensues. Law Enforcement trainers, and not solely those in the firearms world, are renowned for denigrating those who dare teach methods that differ from the status quo. Attitudes like this is why my state's law enforcement academy was still teaching Weaver only as late as 2005.

Luckily, the new crop of instructors that fit squarely within the mold described by Spaulding have made available training that falls well outside the bounds of the norm. Yes, there are a considerable amount of snake oil salesman, and yes, many of them are just plain goofy. Hidden within them, however, are those who don't pretend to seek the approval of the establishment, and who are not beholden to tradition. Silly is silly, unsafe is unsafe....but bucking the system has merit.

I don't for a minute mean to demean the contributions made by the likes of legacy instructors like Bill Jeans, Lewis Awerbuck, and Mr. Spaulding himself. What they have contributed to the shooting and combatives world is absolutely priceless. Without the courage to try new things, and the confidence to thumb one's nose at the establishment, Col. Cooper and his ilk would never have become mainstream, and this whole mess would have never happened.

See? This^^^^^is why I read your posts. I happen to agree that Spaulding is trying to convince the audience that we (instructors) should look to history and stay within the basics, everyone, as you say, on the same page. I don't agree with that. We can be teaching different techniques for cover/concealment, moving, etc. As far as a firearm goes I believe the basics are truly the best way to shoot a firearm. Your stance, natural point of aim, sight picture, sight picture on the target, push/pull grip, thumbs off (of defensive guns), put the pointer finger on the trigger between the pad and the first joint, the trigger finger is independant, it stays outside the trigger guard until you are ready to shoot, press to the rear in a smooth continuous motion, the back sights are slightly blurred, the front sight is in sharp focus, the target is slightly blurred, focus on the front sight front sight front sight, follow through...

Beyond that I think it helps to show them some likely scenarios that they might encounter. Encourage visualization, etc...

We have a curriculum that has to be approved by the state, and after what the state mandates is put into the lesson plan, we really don't have much time for practical exercises like shooting with the weak hand, shooting from behind a barricade with both left and right hands. Shooting off-hand, shooting kneeling, shooting prone. I think we're doing the students a disservice by not being able to shoot more...a LOT more.

They qualify shooting a static line, 5 yds, 7 yds & 10 yds. 10 rounds at each yard line - no time limits or reloads required. Absolutely no drawing from the holster. They begin at the low-ready position with the firearm loaded. They can bring a .22 and qualify with it. The only limiting factor is if they want to carry a semi-auto they have to qualify with a semi-auto - revolver, the same conditions. If the bullet touches the black silhouette, even the sleeve, it's scored a hit.

70% passes.


"...the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.." - Thomas Jefferson, 11/13/1787



#12204193 - 08/13/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: gmoats]  
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who is Dave Spaulding, and why should I care what he thinks?


Sam......

#12204414 - 08/13/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: Mannlicher]  
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Originally Posted by Mannlicher
who is Mannlicher, and why should ANYONE care what he thinks?



+1


"When I was a kid I thought that quicksand was going to be a much bigger problem than it is."
#12204430 - 08/13/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: Steelhead]  
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Originally Posted by Steelhead
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
who is Mannlicher, and why should ANYONE care what he thinks?



+1

you are truly a royal phuggup Scott. laughing.

Last edited by Mannlicher; 08/13/17.

Sam......

#12204485 - 08/13/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: Mannlicher]  
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Originally Posted by Mannlicher
who is Dave Spaulding, and why should I care what he thinks?

…..if you don't know, then you shouldn't care.


The blindness from subjectivity is indistinguishable from the darkness of ignorance.
#12204510 - 08/13/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: gmoats]  
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I am not dogmatic in training methods. As a LE trainer, all I ever gave a damn about was safety and results.

I demonstrated basic, foolproof fundamentals and established what would and wouldn't fly on my range. Beyond that, the student was free to solve various shooting problems using any safe shooting stance or grip that worked with their anatomy, physical strengths and weaknesses, hand size and chosen or issued weapon. This sounds like mess but isn't. I corrected as needed and it worked like gangbusters with a wide variety of shooters.

I've had to correct plenty of bad training provided by so called kombat egg-spurts at several of MO's little coin-op police academies. I've had guys trained by these fooktards who couldn't keep 12 rounds in the 8 ring of a B27 from 15 yards, given 20 seconds from the holster, with a reload. They had these people for FOUR MONTHS. WTF??


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#12204561 - 08/13/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: gmoats]  
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Greg, thank you, once again.

Pete


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#12204865 - 08/13/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: gmoats]  
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 76
Mountain10mm Offline
Member
Mountain10mm  Offline
Member

Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 76
Colorado
Nothing like bad publicity to get you publicity. Seems like Dave went off on a rant and now it's everywhere. I can say I've never met him, nor do I have anything against him, but I have a different take on the instructor/training situation. For the record, I have an NRA pistol instructor cert (almost a joke to get) and shot competitively for 25 years (not a joke). I've never taught a formal class though - nor is it a goal of mine.

First, three things have to be noted. One is defensive training appropriate for a potentially life threatening situation using a handgun. Two, the business of firearms and shooting. Third, shooting skill. They overlap, but not always. It sounds to me like Dave is saying some instructors in the second category and maybe a little of the third category are promoting training for the first category. I concur, that could be an issue. If someone genuinely wants to learn about personal defense with a handgun, it's best to find a experts (plural) in that area - and it's easier said than done. I highly suggest one of those instructors in the defensive pistol class be an attorney - which to my knowledge Dave is not.

In the second category, WTFC? That's who the f*** cares? Not that I'm into it, but if someone wants to pay an "instructor" to shoot tannerite targets with a mini gun while hanging upside down from a helicopter and completely dressed in tacticool garb - great. Have at it. Might be fun, and there's nothing wrong with that. More power to the instructor for capitalizing on a business opportunity. The tactical stuff isn't my style, but it's not different than the wanna-be Harley warriors donning leather chaps and vests on the weekends. Again, not my type, but have at it and kudos to the guys making money at it.

Finally the last category - which is a little closer to me personally. In my experience, and this is just my personal experience, the shooters in the first two categories aren't that good - in the true definition of shooting skill and marksmanship. It's more of did you stop the threat, did you hit the tannerite, can you shoot effectively while moving, etc. Not that those aren't are super valuable skills for their respective categories, but fast, clean, precise, accurate shooting generally doesn't happen in either of the first two. It's the experts in 3-gun, USPSA, IDPA, steel challenge, Camp Perry, Bullseye, etc. that get the nod for the last category.

Caveat emptor. There are no rigid checks and balances as to exactly what category an instructor's class fits. It's up to the student to decide the type of training and research the appropriate method of seeking that training themselves. Negatively slamming your business competition in an emotional rant though only comes across as childish, desperate, demeaning, and even incompetent.

#12204906 - 08/13/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: Mountain10mm]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 57,716
deflave Offline
Campfire Oracle
deflave  Offline
Campfire Oracle

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 57,716
There have been ass holes and charlatan's in the firearms business for a long, long, long time.

It's hardly something new.




Dave

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