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#12204387 - 08/13/17 Re: Nosler Ballistic tip 7mm 120 grain [Re: ctpa61]  
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Not quite. Its one of the BT's with a VERY heavy jacket, comprising around 2/3 of the total bullet weight. Generally these models retain at least 60% of their original weight, even if they lose the lead core. This is apparently what baffles some hunters, because they've long believed any bullet that loses won't penetrate deeply.

But all the "hunting" BT's (as opposed to varmint models) have far heavier jackets than other cup-and-core bullets. Those I've recovered retain around 50% of their weight, give or take 10%--about like the Hornady Interlocks I've recovered.


John

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#12204529 - 08/13/17 Re: Nosler Ballistic tip 7mm 120 grain [Re: ctpa61]  
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I've not sectioned a lot of Ballistic tips. Of the ones I have the .30 180 grain was most impressive. I'd have to say the 150 grain .284 was maybe the least impressive. You fellas have me thinking I should try a few 120s in my 280AI. Might be a real hum dinger. It currently loves 140 TTSXs. Hard to stray from those though.


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#12204591 - 08/13/17 Re: Nosler Ballistic tip 7mm 120 grain [Re: ctpa61]  
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Otter,

The thickness of the jacket isn't the entire story. The hardness of the core also affects expansion.

The 7mm 120's and 150's have the same base thickness. Or at least they used to. Bullet manufacturers often tweak their designs.


John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015
#12204637 - 08/13/17 Re: Nosler Ballistic tip 7mm 120 grain [Re: Otter6]  
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This got me curious, so I just sectioned a 120 and 150. The base of the 150 was actually a little thicker than the 120's. though not by much--but the 150's were a batch from a year or two ago, and the 120's a little older.

The 120's might retain a higher percentage of their weight, but the 150's often aren't driven as fast so might retain more.


John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015
#12204642 - 08/13/17 Re: Nosler Ballistic tip 7mm 120 grain [Re: ctpa61]  
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Most of you have seen these pictures from the past. I don't know how the picture quality will be now since they had to be made smaller. Yet, this is what a 7mm 120 grain nosler ballistic tip will do to an elk.

Attached Files
Scapula II.jpg (77 downloads)
Kim's NM Elk II.jpg (60 downloads)
Cow elk scapula, 7mm-08, 120 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip (235 yard shot)
#12204919 - 08/13/17 Re: Nosler Ballistic tip 7mm 120 grain [Re: ctpa61]  
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How does this bullet perform at lower impact velocities, say around 2200 fps? Enough expansion on deer or antelope on just the rib cage?


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#12204951 - 08/13/17 Re: Nosler Ballistic tip 7mm 120 grain [Re: ctpa61]  
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I don't know velocities as I haven't run them through a chronograph, but I am loading the 120 BT's in reduced-recoil loads using 25.5 gr. of R4759 for our daughter's 7mm-08. Accuracy is excellent and the results on deer have been very good even at the lower velocity, I just don't know exactly how fast or slow that is.


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#12205016 - 08/13/17 Re: Nosler Ballistic tip 7mm 120 grain [Re: ctpa61]  
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Are those onside and offside scapulas of the same elk or separate animals?


Some spelling errors can be corrected by a vowel movement.
#12205244 - 08/13/17 Re: Nosler Ballistic tip 7mm 120 grain [Re: LouisB]  
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It was a one shot, broadside, through and through on that cow elk. Between the dime and recovered bullet is the entrance hole. Above the quarter is the hole it left exiting the offside scapula after passing through the elk's chest. Then, the bullet stopped just on the inside of the skin passed the big hole and shoulder muscle.

#12206573 - 08/14/17 Re: Nosler Ballistic tip 7mm 120 grain [Re: Mule Deer]  
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"Its one of the BT's with a VERY heavy jacket, comprising around 2/3 of the total bullet weight."

Does anyone have a list of what bullets have the "very heavy jacket"?


Kevin
#12206626 - 08/14/17 Re: Nosler Ballistic tip 7mm 120 grain [Re: Teeder]  
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Thought I posted it here, but evidently it was an another thread about Ballistic Tips. These I know about by sectioning bullets: 7mm 120; 165, 168 and 180 .30; 180 8mm; 200 .338. The 200 .338 is now only available in the Ballistic Silvertip version, but despite the black coating and.silver plastic tip, it's the same jacket and core as the plain 200 Ballistic Tip. The 150 7mm also has a pretty heavy jacket, but I don't know if it's 2/3 of the bullet weight.

I would also be pretty sure the newer 220-grain .30 and 300-grain .458 Ballistic Tip and Ballistic Silvertip bullets also have very heavy jackets.

All of this could change. Nosler didn't make any major announcement about beefing up the jackets of the 165-180 .30 calibers. Instead they just went ahead and did it, because so many hunters insisted on hunting larger game with those bullets. But the 200-grain .338 was introduced in the early 1990's, and had the very heavy jacket from the beginning. I know this because Nosler sent me some to test back then. I shot some side-by-side with 210 Partitions into dry newspaper, my standard heavy-duty media for testing bullets, and the 200 BT's penetrated about 90% as deeply as the 210 Partitions. Next I tested them on big game, mostly larger than deer, and they penetrated very deeply. In fact the only one I recovered was several years later, when I shot a mature gemsbok bull, weighing around 450 pounds, in the right shoulder as it quartered strongly toward me. The bullet was recovered from under the hide of the left ham, retaining 59.4% of its weight.

The very heavy-jacket .30's and the 180 8mm are constructed the same way. There was also a very brief period when Nosler made 225 .358, 250 9.8 and 260 .375 Ballistic Tips, but soon after they were introduced Nosler changed them into AccuBonds. However, even when not bonded the 260 .375 still penetrated very well. I field-tested it in Africa on a cull hunt in 2002, loaded to around 2700 fps from a .375 H&H. Among other things it shot lengthwise through springbok, and broke both shoulders of a gemsbok bull weighing 550 pounds on a certified scale--in both instances exiting.

One of the interesting aspects of all this while Nosler was introducing these initial heavy-jacket Ballistic Tips, a lot of hunters continued to believe they would "blow up," because they were Ballistic Tips. Of course, those hunters never tried them.


John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015
#12206775 - 08/14/17 Re: Nosler Ballistic tip 7mm 120 grain [Re: Mule Deer]  
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Excellent!
Thank you, sir!


Kevin
#12206833 - 08/14/17 Re: Nosler Ballistic tip 7mm 120 grain [Re: ctpa61]  
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Some of them do indeed have a lot of heavy jacket in the construction. I shot a deer a few years ago quartering hard away and the 168gr .30cal NBT would up in the neck, just under the hide. When I cut the hide, the jacket was there, with some of the lead core lying next to it. The remaining jacket weighed 69gr, which is a little over 40% of the original bullet weight, and this is after expansion, so I'd not be surprised if that bullet is actually close to 50/50 jacket/core. It's a great performer on deer and hogs at .308win speeds.


I cannot spell, just so you know.....
#12208422 - 08/14/17 Re: Nosler Ballistic tip 7mm 120 grain [Re: ctpa61]  
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Is there a certain grain 6.5mm ballistic tip with a thicker jacket that any one knows about?

#12208605 - 08/15/17 Re: Nosler Ballistic tip 7mm 120 grain [Re: dogzapper]  
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Originally Posted by dogzapper



DELETED





Ok I have to ask what was deleted? And why/who deleted it.


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#12208624 - 08/15/17 Re: Nosler Ballistic tip 7mm 120 grain [Re: ctpa61]  
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My lovely wife shot this big cow last November using a standard 280 with 150gr ballistic tip.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by 79S; 08/15/17.

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#12208634 - 08/15/17 Re: Nosler Ballistic tip 7mm 120 grain [Re: JP_Lucas]  
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Originally Posted by JP_Lucas
Is there a certain grain 6.5mm ballistic tip with a thicker jacket that any one knows about?


Not sure about that, but the 130gr AB is rather sturdy in my experience. I've heard others here report the same.


I cannot spell, just so you know.....
#12208683 - 08/15/17 Re: Nosler Ballistic tip 7mm 120 grain [Re: ctpa61]  
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I believe the 6.5mm 120 gr is similar to the 7mm 120 BT.


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#12208692 - 08/15/17 Re: Nosler Ballistic tip 7mm 120 grain [Re: JPro]  
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^^^ definitely this.

#12208699 - 08/15/17 Re: Nosler Ballistic tip 7mm 120 grain [Re: michiganroadkill]  
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Originally Posted by michiganroadkill
I believe the 6.5mm 120 gr is similar to the 7mm 120 BT.


I'm not so sure about that.

#12208701 - 08/15/17 Re: Nosler Ballistic tip 7mm 120 grain [Re: 79S]  
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Originally Posted by 79S
My lovely wife shot this big cow last November using a standard 280 with 150gr ballistic tip.

[Linked Image]



Between you and the moose, she shot the better looking one..... grin


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#12208810 - 08/15/17 Re: Nosler Ballistic tip 7mm 120 grain [Re: The_Yetti]  
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Originally Posted by The_Yetti
Originally Posted by 79S
My lovely wife shot this big cow last November using a standard 280 with 150gr ballistic tip.

[Linked Image]



Between you and the moose, she shot the better looking one..... grin


The hate is strong with this one... lol

Last edited by 79S; 08/15/17.

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#12208926 - 08/15/17 Re: Nosler Ballistic tip 7mm 120 grain [Re: michiganroadkill]  
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Quote
I believe the 6.5mm 120 gr is similar to the 7mm 120 BT.


Quote
I'm not so sure about that.


Quote

I digress; let's talk about the 6.5-.280 Ackley.

Gosh, I don't even know the year.

I was retired from our jewelry store, so it was after 1992. Chub Eastman was still the Sales Manager at Nosler. I still was writing at Varmint Hunter, a Contributing Editorship I literally walked away from in 2004. It was way before 2004 though, because it was back when Darrell Holland and I had a friendly working relationship (don't ask, please). And it was still back in the days when Chub and I went to slay whitetail, mulies and mooses in Alberta.

Just for the heck of it, let's call it the 1993 or 1994.

Chub Eastman, my longtime good friend and hunting partner, gave me a call one day. Chub wanted me to suggest/design a cartridge that would work through a pre-'64 Winchester action that he had. Generally, his request was for a .264" round that would give the maximum performance out of the basic .30-'06 case. Chub is not allergic to fireforming, so Ackley influence was fine.

So, how do you get the mostest bang for the buck out of the basic '06 case???? The largest case volume of the family is the .280 Remington, owing to the shoulder being .051" forward of the standard round.

The obvious answer to Chub's request was simply to make a .264" round on the .280 Ackley case. Yes, we could have gone for a 6.5 Gibbs, but creating a surragate shoulder or bullet jamming or other heroics were not something I wanted to do.

At the time, Darrell Holland was my go-to gunsmith, so I had Darrell order a 6.5-.280 Ackley reamer from Hugh Hendriksen (the absolute best!!!) and I paid for half of the reamer. I would assume that Chub paid for the other half.

The reamer was marked .264 THE Express. The "THE" nomenclature reportedly stands for Timm, Holland and Eastman. I always thought that the THE name sucked.

Chub and I both had rifles built in 6.5 -.280 Ackley. Chub's was on his Model 70 action and I believe that he used a Pac-Nor barrel. Knowing Chub, he probably went for a longish barrel and I believe that his stock was one of those yukky MPI abortions.

Mine was on a Remington 700 BDL, with a three-contour twenty-four inch Schneider 1-10" stainless barrel, with a pillar-bedded McMillan Remington Classic stock. My rifle was impeccably done, by any standards.

I guess Chub didn't fancy the THE name any more than I did because his barrel is marked 6.5 Blowhole Express.

My barrel had more character by half because my chamber designation is .264 Brainfart Express. If nothing, Chub and I are comics to the core. The Two Stooges, actually. grin

I developed the data; the rifles shot wonderfully and they shot fast.

Please, no flaming, Chub and I kill stuff; we have proven it in the field and we use what works.

There were two standout loads. The first featured a 120 Ballistic Tip with RL-22 and the muzzle velocity was 3,250 fps. The second was with the 125-grain Partition, again with RL-22, and the MV was 3,200 fps.

Over the years, I watched Chub murder fully a half-dozen Alberta bull moose with the 120 Ballistic Tip in the 6.5 Blowhole. Each moose needed a single shot and they died most rickey-tick. Dead right friggin' there, in fact.

How many huge Alberta whitetail did he kill? Crap, I don't know ... maybe a dozen. They simply died most sincerely dead with the 120 Ballistic. And with no or very little blood-shooting of meat.

I don't believe that either of us have ever recovered a 120 Ballistic; they basically go clear through both mooses and deer, leaving an exit of one- to two-inches. They destroy things that sustain life in the critter, they exit and then they go into a low orbit of the earth.

Very late in the game, Nosler's ballistics buy, Matt Smith, had Holland build him a rifle. Matt was the replacement for Gail Root, Nosler's legendary bullet designer and ballistics dude. Matt was a great guy and he had access to Oregon's GI Ranch, so he was able to kill lots of animals with his rifle.

For those who know Oregon, the GI Ranch is beyond Hampton, kinda in the Glass Buttes, Riley area. It's a huge ranch and permission is like impossible.

Matt fancied the 100 Ballistic tip and he killed mule deer and bull elk that all of the rest of us only dream about with the combination. I've seen photos of Matt with 200+++ point mulies and bull elk that give me the dry humps without the aid of Viagra.

How fast was Matt pushing the 100??? Well, he's young and he's ballistically smart, so probably very, very fast. And, more to the point, the bullet worked for him in a most magnificent way.

The rest of the story: Chub is still murdering animals with his rifle, I guess. I've lost touch with Matt, but it would be hard for me to believe that he would abandon a "good luck rifle" like that. Me? Well, I drifed back to the .280 Ackley, the .25-'06 and a brief flirtation with the 6.5-'06 Ackley.

Currently, I'm kind of quarter-bore guy; in love with the .25-'06 and my new, lovely and totally-unfired .257 Weatherby.

Truth to tell, my shoulder did not really survive surgery well three years ago and I've only fired a few rounds since that time. It is painful in the extreme to shoot a single round and I'm completely incapable of getting big critters out of the field, in the truck and butchered, so I've kinda left the field.

And that's fine. Lord knows, I've killed enough.
[b][/b]

#12208944 - 08/15/17 Re: Nosler Ballistic tip 7mm 120 grain [Re: 79S]  
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Originally Posted by 79S
My lovely wife shot this big cow last November using a standard 280 with 150gr ballistic tip.


There aint nothing wrong with that!! It's the perfect bullet/cartridge combination.


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