Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa The SXS Double Rifle Mystique

I havent forgotten anything like you suggest , I am well aware of their ammunition- logistics issue. Bell clearly highlights the unreliable patchy supply
of SxS big-bore cartridges in remote Africa, a major consideration he took when selecting his rifles & calibres...that aside ,he found .450/400 SxS
unsuitable for persuing elephant in very thick foilage. ..When he pushed through leaves with dried mud from earlier passing elephants, it would
fall into the action as he moved along reloading, preventing it from closing....His .303 sporter proved far more capable of maintaiing function in such
conditions, even better than his M98.

To think it was all about rifle and ammunition cost and supply, is erroneous...In the case of Bell, carrying a 10lb rifle for hrs and many miles in the day,
sometimes running for miles along side fleeing herds to pick off bulls and also fast shooting scenes, where he may take a dozen or nearly twenty bulls
in short minutes, .450 SxS and .416 mauser were a hindrance to nimble fast efficient shooting and an unnecessary weight burden overall.

Bell was not alone , Lyell found big SxS rifles an impractical pain to lug around for arduous long hot days, were more susceptable to jamming or the action
not closing due to common contaminants like grass and small twigs. He found small bore bolt rifles up to 8 lb also offered decisively better handling.
He had a Jeffery .577 SxS but soon got rid of it, as he preferred his .303 (ref: Memories Of An African Hunter- DD Lyell) .Harry Selby also favored a lighter
more dynamic bolt rifle, hence why not long after obtaining his .416 Rigby, he got the tools out and thinned the stock.

Career African hunter? not hardly. Grand total of TWO safaris. How many have you done?
Boeing 767/200 ER MAX FUEL weight= ~161,000 gal and yes I looked it up (again) and my original post WAS an ESTIMATION on my part as I am not rated in that aircraft and the jet I ACTUALLY FLEW only carried a measly 16, 144 lb. So how much flight time do YOU have and are you SURE the Boeing Spec Sheets are 150 and not 152 pages? Just asking...

As to the Bell nonsense, do you really think I'm going to start paging by every tome out there on Bell to to try and find chapter and verse where I read he lost more than a few elephants in his ivory hunting/poaching career? Seriously? Lastly, the high speed issue on Cats is out there as I stated in my OP, only an idiot (like you) would even entertain the thought there's some scientific research on the subject but just events related by Professional Hunters with real world experiences on hunting the Big Cats. I'm crushed I have no credibility with someone who appears to spend his whole existence looking up data on google, but when pressed to show actual bona-fides, slinks away like a roach when the light comes on..

Starman do you even own a double? Have you been on a safari? If so, how many? Where? And for what? Do you own a Rigby bolt gun? If so pictures of you and the rifle in Africa please.

Hoof in mouth Troll disease, internet Ninja...

Calling out and challenging Jorge on subjects like jet airplanes and BG hunting... Laughable.

That basement keyboard 's gotta be smoking...

DF

Here's but one douche bag and from someone whose actually written on the subject.

From The Perfect Shot by Kevin Robertson (Page 122):

"Leopard are thin-skinned and light-boned. In body size they are similar to and not much heavier than a mature impala ram. Like the lion, they have a highly refined nervous system that can easily be switched off by the hydrostatic shock liberated from some of the smaller hunting calibres and bullets that are suitably heavy, fairly fast and relatively fragile."

several hundred thousand gallons
90 thousand gallons
now...161,000 gallons..?

you are saying 767 takes nearly (7x) the max.fuel load Boeing Co. indicates.



WTF?..lol......Nobody needs a 767 rating to be learned on its correct fuel capacity.
Boeing offers its product characteristics data online.

http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commercial/airports/acaps/767.pdf



LOL..several hundred thousand GALLONS was an estimate?...estimates are based on something people already
have a reasonable idea of...you est. (12x) actual fuel cap...now you est. (7x) actual fuel cap....... imbecile.

The mechanics of a bullet passing through game is more about hydrodynamics not hydrostatics.

HYDROSTATIC relating to the equilibrium of liquids and the pressure exerted by liquid at rest.

HYDRODYNAMIC relating to the motions of fluids or the forces which produce or affect such motions.



LOL.. mr Double Talk, why the hell quote from a book source you dont believe in....???
and since you never witnessed 'through your own eyes' dripping molten steel in the TT,..
why then do you believe what you read somewhere???



Theres no credible established terminal ballistic scientific verification,
so how does a P-H really know whats going on inside an animal or why it is reacting a certain way?

oh easy.!....just pluck a 'hydrostatic shock phenomenon' out of thin air and try and make it stick....LOL

Mythical molten steel Twin Towers and B767 carrying a mythical (7x) or more its actual fuel capacity,
African bush Voodoo terminal ballistics,....you evidently are highly susceptable to believing any crapola.

finally,



Who are you talking down specifically?

Right out of the specs. 767 ER :161,740 lb / 73,364 kg. Unlike you, I do not spend my life surfing the net to regale people I don't know with inane statistics. But just for you, I looked up those numbers. again in POUNDS and yes when I first posted I said gallons IN ERROR, because in my entire flying career, we always thought in pounds. As to the Safaris, ME ,you idiot. And again I ask, how much flight time do you have and what type rating and how many safaris do you have under your belt? (rhetorical question, Raisuli)..I suggest you take the issue of the cats with Doctor Robertson, a veterinarian, PH and author of many books on the subject of hunting. Unlike you, I wish I had the time to spend surfing the net and cutting and pasting to impress people.

Dr. Robertson was kind enough to send me this:

Jorge - it is my experience that a leopard can be killed instantly by a healthy dose of hydrodynamic shock when it is dumped into the chest cavity. Have seen this happen a number of times but it only works when the right bullets are used. The South African ammo company PMP make a 300 grain .375 H&H round nose soft point. Comes in a brown box with the picture of a poor quality, sexually immature buffalo bull on it. Heaven help anyone who tries to use these 'cheap and nasty' bullets on a buffalo - because they don't even shoot through an impala! They come apart in spectacular fashion even in impala - like a 300 grain hand grenade! For leopard however these bullets are ideal! I have personally witnessed large mature Tom's die instantly when shot in the chest cavity with these fragile bullets. Careful autopies revealed the CNS were not hit - and yet the Tom's died as if lightning struck. My only assumption to these phenomenon was that it was the rapid release of almost 4000 foot pounds of kinetic energy into the chest cavity while pulverizing the heart and lungs which killed the Tom's instantly. None of these bullets exited so this was 'energy dumping' to the extreme.
Some time ago I helped the knowledgeable folks at North Fork bullets develop a 'feline specific' bullet. They now call it their PP for 'Percussion Point'. Out here in Africa we call them 'Pussy Pounders' because this is what they really are! The regular 300 grain .375 NF SP is fully expanded within about 6 inches of ballistic gelatin penetration. Similar weight and caliber PP's are fully expanded with only 2 inches of similar medium penetration. I confirmed this on a leopard autopsy. On a big Tom, shot behind the shoulder, the entry wound hole through the rib cage into the chest cavity revealed that the PP was fully expanded as it did so. Being a super premium quality, solid shanked expanding-type bullet the PP exited but the wound channel through the thorax was golf ball in size. Leopards die quickly in such instances, but not instantly. It is with good reason why 500 grain .458 NF PP's are now the Kruger National Park's game rangers bullets of choice whenever problem felines need to be dealt with.

More: "on the cats, with their thin skin, small body size and highly developed nervous systems, expanding bullets at HIGH (caps mine) standard and HIGH impact velocities are recommended. There's more but I think that will about cover flybys as the saying goes. Oh, reference: African Dangerous Game Cartridges by Pierre Van Der Walt...

So at least TWO(there are more) world renown PHs authors and or vets say this..

WAIT A MINUTE! Are you one of "those" who think the Towers were an "inside job"? .

Dunno about 767's, but I've done nine (9) safaris thus far, eight (8) of them DG safaris. Have taken multiple elephants and buff, plus one (1) each leopard lion and rhino (the rhino was darted). Completed the Big Five in 2012. Going back to Africa for my 10th safari in June, 2018.

Killed the lion in Zim with a .416 Rigby shooting 400 grain Swift A Frames. Mistake! Bullet zipped through the lungs with no apparent expansion and the cat simply took off. Followup at night was, shall we say, exciting? Found him dead, bled out, with little internal damage. Way too much bullet for a cat, but that was the only soft I had brought. Great buff bullet, lousy cat bullet out of a .416, IMO.

Shot the leopard in 2012. Rifle was an early 50's Winchester Model 70 that started life as a .270. Sent it to Stuart Satterlee (Satterlee Arms), who turned it into a very nice .338 Winchester. Swaro Z6i with illuminated circle dot reticle. Craig Boddington recommended a 225 Partition as a good combo for leopard/PG. When the rifle was completed, Stuart brought it to Superior Ammunition (when they were still in South Dakota) and they made up (among other loads) a 225 Partition at 2,825 fps. Shot under one MOA. Brought that .338 and my .470 on my Namibian safari.

There was a rabies epidemic in the Kudu population when I arrived in Namibia. Plenty of meat on the ground, so the leopards were not coming to bait. The PH used a wounded warthog call and lo and behold, on the afternoon of the first day, a leopard appeared on top of a koppe at a lasered 191 yards. I shot him as he was looking around, broadside, through the lungs. He dropped where he stood and was DRT. Never even twitched.

I've only killed a grand total of two big cats, hardly a large sample size. But based on that, IMO, were I to do it again, for lion I would choose a .375 with a 270 grain Partition, CoreLokt or similar bullet. For leopard, a .30/06 with a 180 grain Partition or CoreLokt is about right. Actually, any good deer rifle (7-08, 7x57, .270, .30/06, .300, etceteras) with a "soft", frangible bullet would work well on a leopard IMO. But be advised that some countries require a minimum of a .375 for any DG, including leopard.

If the cat isn't DRT, I strongly recommend a good double with softs for the followup. I brought my .470 and 500 grain Woodleigh softs (as loaded by Norma), "just in case."

That is nice, my doubles are a Brit, German and a big Frenchman, my grail gun is a British 450-400 NE bar action/sidelock top lever rebounding hammer rifle with stalking safeties with 28" barrels.

I'll have to crack the checkbook and grab one someday.

That's just plain sexy! Gorgeous buff, too! Please pass on my congratulations!

Ed

That is a real beauty.
If I could afford one, I'd have to have a field gun made too, as I would feel guilty about dragging that beauty through the brush.
Nice Buffalo.
Next year I'm hoping to have my own experience with my double and a beast too.
SJC

Why own something less suitable?
Early 90s onward, I spent some yrs checking out the pre-owned market, even visited English and German
manufacturers...I gave the idea long and fair consideration.
I had keen interest in .30 Holland&Holland, perused some b/a sidelocks, but found them too weighty and
uweildly before a scope...some neat 9,3x74s were actually much better in that regard but not the chambering
for me. Regardless of affordability and how much I liked them, they just were not practical enough. I didnt
allow mystique and peoples obtuse waffle to overrule rational minded logic.

I found myself prefering magazine arrangements with more practical syn.stocks, not bling termite food,
(been there done that).....22" 30/06 bolt rifle gave me a lighter, more accurate, better swinging QD scoped rig,
similar OAL, SxS velocities or greater, without the headaches and limitations....I didnt read books on past
great african hunters at all back then,when I began to, I found the logic-pragmatic reasoning for avoiding
SxS in favor of B-Rs, was very similar to mine. I happen to come to my own such conclusions without any undue
influence from them, nor was I on any gun forums. Im much inclined to think my tradetime in maintaining-trouble
shooting industrial equipment that was required to run 365 days/yr, influenced my pragmatic approach to hunting
rifles....I believe Harry Selby was a motor mechanic before a PH.....no suprise the most defensive and dismissive
SxS owner Ive come across was an ivory tower paper shuffling attorney who would need his secretary to sort out
his jammed office stapler.

Other hand, I found owners of co. like Hartmann & Weiss rather humble, they didnt carry on about the SxS rifle like
some largely obnoxious irrelevant internet mouthpiece folk do. Some would be surprised how little they may have
to say. I gather its a valuable understated business manner approach one attains from time at J.Purdey & Sons.
They prefered to educate,discuss and demonstrate in house design improvements they had developed- employed
in manufacture. I took that to mean that getting a SxS should be entirely my decision, but also to make me aware
of what differences they offered and I may like to consider, should I end up deciding on SxS.

H&W are both traditional and innovative, I will highlight in color;

Otto & Gerhard are great admirers of the British designs and regarding actions,
the SxS Boss design is their mainstay SxS action for shotguns ,and the Beesley for SxS rifles.
H&W are flexible in that they will build you a Beesley action gun with Boss single triggers and
Holland-southgate ejectors, in order to offer the best in style with the best mechanical designs.

H&W also have engineered innovative improvements to the British designs,
examples of this are:

1 - springs built into the cocking rods and safety sears to eliminating parts & screws in its self-openers
2- Modification of the Boss single trigger turret for easier disassembly
3- Roller tips on mainsprings to eliminate the breakage prone tumbler link
4- where U/O ejectors cam on the action, hardened steel inserts are installed to prevent wear.


Took op. to also check .30cal H&W mag.mauser...was a (not light) long barrelled unit ,
not something I would want to lug around from dawn till dusk.



Several very good custom mauser options out there, why does it have to be a Rigby? my 1909 was built
better than a catalogue item 'name dropping' Rigby....what floats your boat doesnt mean it floats mine.
Rigby at that time was recently Californian, I didnt like their products and the old orig. Rigby examples
I came across didnt seem that spectacular but still carried the price.
Even the 1909 was given a new home in favor of stainless-synthetic tools...no regrets, looking back
should have done it earlier. Sometimes you dont see the blue/walnut hype one gets caught in until you
step back some,(same with SxS). Everything is a trade-off for one thing or another. I am a pragmatist,
and with choosing bolt-rifles I dont find I lost anything of practical significance to me,actually more the
contrary.




One specifically needs a SxS or specifically a Rigby and Africa to qualify?...wow thats rather narrow minded.
do you have anymore of your own strict personal criteria 'loaded' questions?

btw: have you decided yet what calibre to use to 'save your P-Hs life'...?....LOL.
recreational vacation hunters planning heroic stunts..Ask Tim Herald how his save the PH stunt worked out,
hilarious to say the least...any other idiosyncrasies you care to share?...

you remind me of this kind of show pony gas-bagging talk....

"Were going to track him, were going to hunt him down, were going to find him, then we're going to kill him!"
- Mark Sullivan

LOL, well when its a video called 'Greatest Hippo Charges' and youre whispering at a hippo wallow, uber cal.SxS
on your shoulder, thats the prevailing thing already in viewers minds isnt it? ....a savy 8 yr old watching would
already know that, but MS finds need to tell his mature age adult bigbore SxS fans what 'the game plan is' ...
why the halfwit simple simon stuff?

It seems to me that there are pros and cons with every type of rifle, some more than others, but whatever you choose you have to practice with it until its use is cemented into "muscle memory" and until you can be confident with it.

My own experience with my double, a very utilitarian 9.3x74, and with various break actions such as drillings, combination etc, is that they can be made up into compact and handy hunting arms. A double can also be regulated to shoot accurately enough to put one or two into the vitals of an animal, and if it fits you properly it should enable you to do so very quickly. There again a bolt action which fits you properly should enable you to put the first one in about as quick, though the second shot, if required, will take rather longer.

With practice you can also put in a third and fourth in pretty short order with a double too - and the fourth round about as quick as that from a bolt action in my own actual experience (culling buffalo in Oz, not Africa). I don't know about the reliability aspect - something like a Mauser 98 which has been properly set up for the calibre it is chambered for is a pretty well-proven platform under the worst of conditions. A double also is rather dependent on sticking with a particular load, and not really the go if you want to try different ones. Not really likely to be a long-range sort of number either, especially with open sights.

Guys, a fellow member of AR, Todd Williams, recorded a video oh him with his 500 NE Verney Caron and his friend with a bolt 416 Rigby in a side by side comparison of getting off four aimed shots as fast as possible. Todd's pretty apt with his double and he did indeed get four shots off faster. I certainly could not have done it, but he clearly showed it could be done. I see the google posting bullshitter continues to pound us with spam and conveniently avoid answering straight questions. The inexorable takeover of this website by trolls continues unabated whilst the moderators stand by and let it happen...

Jorge, his posting style reminds me a LOT of Larry Root. Same disingenuous posting, same braggadocio, same smarmy replies, and never proof of anything, just exercising his Google-fu.

Pathetic little man.

Ed

It's not Larry, but it's another sock puppet that's been here before. Larry is now posting under JamesEssex

Got it.

Ed

You ought to.

I hear you drink enough of it.

It's hard to ignore the cool factor and satisfaction of owning and using a double rifle, jorge. I've had and hunted with several. They're heavy and limiting in scope, but we don't always need what's most appropriate. The mere satisfaction of making a great Classic do its job is a bit of victuals to the soul.

Would I choose a DR over a good magazine rifle on a buffalo hunt? I can't say I would or wouldn't. I killed one with a single shot out of a combination gun, but I had two good back-ups with 416s standing nearby.