Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa The SXS Double Rifle Mystique

I posted the following on the "Stopping Power" thread on Ask the Gimwriters forum... I've been thinking quite a bit about this since then, so I decided to put my keyboard where my mouth is and post this here in the Africa Forum.



Now, as I stated, I am very familiar with and very comfortable with the SXS double barrel arrangement. I've done more than 90% of my wingshooting since 1977 with one of several 12 gauge doubles. This included hard-kicking magnum loads for high-flying geese, FWIW.

I nearly took a double rifle to Africa, too. Partly because I was enamored of the double rifle mystique, but partly because I am very comfortable with the handling of a double barreled firearm, and I'm very much cognizant of the advantages of the SXS double rifle, not least of which is the fact that one can fire the second barrel in a damn good hurry if it's needed to stop a charge.

With that in mind, I was also not able/willing to spend upwards of $10,000.00 to obtain a good double rifle, and that's the kind of price range we are talking about. Until I was at DSC in January of 2015, and my PH, John Sharp, told me that I should go down to Larry Pancake's booth a couple rows over from John's, and look at the very nice 9.3x74R Sabatti double rifles he had for sale. I asked John specifically if he would recommend that caliber for buffalo, and he said he had no doubt of it, provided I could load it with 300 gr Swift A-frames. So I went down the line, handled one of Larry's BEAUTIFUL rifles, and as Jorge1 will attest (he was there, the enabling sonofabitch, goading me into buying it!) it was one helluva deal. Larry really, really wanted me to take the rifle to Africa, shoot a buff with it, and then write an article about it. He was so eager that he told me he would sell it for an obscenely low price. How could I say no?

So I drove home from DSC 2 days later with this gorgeous double rifle. Purchases were made on the innanet, and within a couple of weeks I had a Trijicon 1-4X scope mounted on it, and some Hornady 286 gr loads. Off to the range I went. Load, aim, and fire. WHAM!!! That little rifle kicked the bejabbers out of me! Huh. I thought I must me holding it wrong, so I tried it again. WHAM! It felt like I'd taken a left hook to the right cheek! Now, I'm not a snowflake when it comes to recoil... I'd been practicing quite a bit with my initial African rifle, a 375 Ruger, with full-house 300 gr loads and I was more than comfortable with the big recoil of a DG rifle.

Well, after I put a slip-on leather butt extension on the thing, I was finally able to shoot it without getting a bruise on my cheek, but the gun still didn't work for me. I loaded up some reduced-power reloads for practice purposes, using AA 5744 and some 250 gr Hornady bullets, but no dice. The bullets would shoot to within 2" at 50 yards off the bench, but when I tried to stand on my two hind legs, the bullets flew every which way. Every time I mounted the gun, I had to hunt for the sights. It just didn't "come up" to my face the way any of my double shotguns do. I talked about it with our pal Patrick at Willougby-McCabe in Dallas, and he agreed this was a classic "bad fit" problem. He suggested he could have his stock maker bend the stock to try to make it fit me, but he was quick to tell me there were no guarantees short of having an entirely new stock made to my dimensions. (Being 6'2" and 210 pounds, I'm not exactly built like your average Italian...)

I put at least 200 rounds of ammo through that rifle before I decided it wasn't going to work for me. I had to consider as well that John Sharp was starting to express doubt about the 9.3x74R for buffalo... he had been doing some reconsidering since his encouraging words in January, and he was now asking me to be sure to bring my 375 Ruger rifle along as well, just to see what's what once I arrived in camp.

I agonized for days, and finally said to hell with it. I sold the Sabatti double to an acquaintance who had been drooling all over it, and sold the Ruger 375 to boot. I bought the Kimber Caprivi in 375 H&H I mentioned in the quote above, and it was love at first shot. I could make that rifle hit, accurately and quickly, from any hunting position. I fired practice rounds and full-power rounds from offhand, standing with sticks, kneeling, and sitting positions at targets anywhere from 10 yards to 200 yards, with the Trijicon scope, with the backup Nikon scope, and with iron sights. The rifle simply came up to my face perfectly every time I mounted it... and don't ask me to explain how that could be, given the difference in height of the irons vs the scopes. It just worked for me. (My reloading and range logs show I bought 100 rounds of loaded Hornady ammo, and another 100 pieces of new Hornady brass... I reloaded each case 3 times, both reduced practice loads and full power loads in a 2:1 ratio, and shot all but 120 of those reloads before I left for Africa, which is how I came up with the "nearly 700 rounds tally, if you're interested.)

Now, back to my acquaintance and the Sabatti. This chap is taller than me, and that rifle didn't fit him worth a damn, either. Of course he didn't admit that, and despite the fact that I could see he wasn't hitting his targets any better than I was, he insisted on taking it to Africa the next year. His Facebook page was full of glory pics of him kneeling behind dead critters and holding the double rifle, but he privately told me that he shot almost all his game with his .338 because he couldn't hit [bleep] with the 9.3x74R when he got to South Africa. "The light is really different there, you know," he told me by way of excuse. Bullscheit. The rifle didn't fit him and he couldn't shoot it worth a damn. The only saving grace to that story is that he didn't hunt buffalo or other Dangerous Game with it!

Now, I'm sorry for that long story... but I believe it illustrates the problem with the African Double Rifle mystique. So many of us have been romanced by tales told by Ruark and Hemingway and Capstick and God knows everybody else about how fine it is to take one's trophies with a double rifle that we have lost sight of the first rule of being a good rifle hunter, which is to say, you can hit with it and kill your quarry cleanly every time, or near as dammit. If you read those authors a bit more closely, you'll note that Hemingway and Ruark and Capstick did a damn sight more shooting with a bolt-action rifle than with their big doubles. How the double rifle became the "classic" for African hunting is a bit of a mystery to me, when I re-read these authors who are the supposed champions of the dictum. W.M. Bell, John "Pondoro" Taylor, Craig Boddington, and many other African hunting icons have demonstrated in their own shooting and subsequent writing that a good magazine (bolt-action) rifle was the best rifle for most situations and most hunters.

Yet I see fellows like my west Texas friend and the chap in the above video who gut-shot his buffalo choosing a double rifle that they are unfamiliar with, and often so afraid of that they don't put in enough practice time with it to become proficient in its use. I've had private conversations with a dozen or more African PH's who opine that most Americans who bring doubles on their first hunt aren't very good with them, and are probably better served by a magazine rifle.

I'm interested to hear what you fellows have to say. I already know there will be a lot of chest-puffing and assertions that "I shoot my double rifle impeccably", etc. Fine, I'm sure you're right. But I'm interested in reading some substantive observations and enlightening discussion from the rest of you chaps, especially those of you who own and shoot a fine double rifle.

A couple of things. If I remember correctly, I DID encourage you to buy a double, but I definitively remember I mentioned my huge issues w my Sabbatti that I returned to Cabelas. It was truly a POS. That said, the folks you spoke to were supposedly "under new management" and assured the issues they had were resolved. Apparently not. As to the 10K number, the market is "soft" right now, so that number might just get you a decent English Double. As to new, maybe a Merkel that I would also avoid like the plague. A double rifle is by almost any measure, a highly specialized weapon, as like Craig Boddington says, going after buffalo with a double effectively reduces your chances by fifty per cent, but that I think is determined by the "prism" of the client hunter who in order to increase his chances, is looking at ranges from "right here!" to say 100 yards. A decent (new) double starts at the 16K (or so) range and that would be a Verney Carron (my choice) or a Heym. gut shooting happens no matter what you choose to use, IF you don't practice with it. My Verney was bespoke and as such fits me well and with it, I can routinely smack gallon sized jugs at 100 yards. Ostensibly I agree with your premise that a SCOPED bolt gun is a better choice, but my next trip (date unkown) for buffalo there is no doubt I will take my double...and a scoped 375. Lastly, I hope Jeff (HATARI) chimes in, as with a dozen buffalo under his belt he can offer a much better opinion than I can.

Interesting conversation. The question of a lightweight double vs similar weight bolt-trash.

I haven't hunted Cape Buff yet but it is very much on my list of things to do. It will happen one day. I did "hunt" American Bison with a 9.3x62, for whatever that's worth.

To that end, I have a 20" stainless Montana 1999 in .375 H&H and a 20" Merkel 141 in 9.3x74r. Both rifles are 8# scoped, with the .375 wearing VX6 1-6 and the 9.3 wearing a VX3 1.5-5, both illuminated duplex. The Montana sits in a decidedly ugly B&C aluminum bedded stock with a thick and soft limb saver while the Merkel wears its wood proudly with barely a sliver of sorbathane recoil pad.

I can fire 50 rounds of 300gr. 2,450 fps 375 off the bench with no ill effects. Meanwhile even a dozen rounds of 286 gr. 2,250 fps loads in the little Merkel brutalize me. Cheek slap and purple shoulder...use the set trigger and odds of doubling increase dramatically (*only because my hand slips with that 6oz trigger). I've only doubled that rifle once...damn...that rang my bell, shattered my shooting glasses and missed cutting me by a bare hair.

The Montana is one ugly as sin rifle. Sprayed on black finish, ugly stock, no iron sights to snag...holds four in the pit and one in the chamber. I hate this rifle because it is so ugly. I mean, it's a Thursday night 6 pack, twin bagger of a rifle. Damned if it doesn't group 3 in under an inch and feeds a smooth and slick as baby snot on a sheet of ice.

Yeppers...I have a pretty good idea which rifle I'd take on a buff hunt.

So, back to the story: If the rifle doesn't fit...well, there's just no winning there no matter how lovely the rifle really is.

It's not just the fit, or the expense, or the "shoot-ability" or lack thereof regarding a double rifle...... for a hunter going to Africa, a bolt rifle is a more effective weapon than a double! Don't get me wrong, I love double rifles, and have had 12-15 of them over time. They're nostalgic, powerful-looking, and downright cool! But we tend to confuse our role as hunter versus PH.

A double rifle provides 2 reliable shots with only the move of a finger from one trigger to another. They're shorter and can be handier than a longer bolt rifle, and in a large caliber in the hands of a PH, they can provide the stopping power needed when things get out of control on a hunt, protecting the client and the rest of the hunting party. At the short ranges used, a double provides the adequate "minute of Cape Buffalo" accuracy needed at short range.

The hunting client, however, has different responsibilities....to provide an accurate killing shot on an animal at the range encountered. To accomplish this, a scoped bolt rifle is the ticket. At the ranges generally encountered on a hunt, there's no need for 2 ultra-fast and reliable shots, so a bolt is fine. Accuracy becomes more critical as distance increases, so an accurate rifle and a scope aid in precise shot placement.

Double rifles may look powerful, but being break-open actions, they're limited in chamber pressure. To make up for that, the more powerful versions use very heavy bullet weights, which are a detriment to both range and trajectory.

Double rifles are designed to be used with open sights, which are adequate for short range and instinctive (read defensive) shooting. By the time most folks can afford African hunting, they've gotten on in age, and may no longer have the eyesight necessary to use open sights. Yes, you can add a scope or holo sight to a double, and hope that the addition doesn't affect the regulation of the rifle. But when equipped as such, why not just use a bolt rifle?

The one area where doubles are in their realm for a hunter is in Elephant hunting, where ranges are short and the availability of 2 quick shots is a good safety net.

As I said, I love shooting and hunting with double rifles, even with their shortcomings. But I advise folks to think of it like bowhunting, where you're purposely limiting yourself to short-range shots, using you skills to get within close range of your quarry.

Guys, please don't misread my OP as a condemnation of double rifles... if anything, I'm even more enamored of them now than I was 2 years ago, and if/when I get a chance to buy one, I'll take it to Africa quite happily!

My premise was/is that 1) the double rifle is a specialized rifle, especially for DG, and while it should be revered as such, it 2) is not suited to the average African hunter no matter what size his bank account. If you are going to take a double to Africa, you need to be damn sure you can shoot it and shoot it well.

My friend, I know you know I was kidding you... I considered your questions about that maker very seriously, as we discussed at the time. The rifle I bought was NOT a POS... it was well made, and shot good groups off the bench. It simply wouldn't work for me from the shoulder.



I'm looking forward to Jeff's comments as well.

As for your choice of taking your double, I'm not questioning that choice! If I had your Verney Carron 450/400, I'd take it, too!

Interesting observation. What do you suppose the weight of your Merkel might be? My Sabatti came in at a little over 8 pounds, 9 pounds with scope. I certainly don't consider that a "lightweight" rifle, and should be more than enough weight to tame the recoil of a beast such as the 9.3x74R?

The rifle has to fit you. I am fortunate in having "standard" body dimensions so that most rifles and shotguns right off the shelf mount and swing easily for me. Same can be said for golf clubs. I can get them off the rack.

I have 2 doubles. The favorite is a .450/400 Jeffery's. I can shoot it much like a shotgun meaning that I practiced snapping it up to shoulder and banging off two shots as quick as I can without taking the time to fine aim with the sights. Call it shotgun style. Practice in case of a charge at short range. As long as I mount the rifle and get a good check weld, I can hit a 4 x 6" index card at 25y with both shots every time. Is it NOT my expertise, but rather the fit of the gun. I have a SxS 28g scatter gun that I'm pretty handy with. I have a Spanish made O/U AYA that I got at the factory and the craftsmen there fitted me personally. I can't hit jack with it. Got another O/U I shoot fine.

There are 2 great attributes of a double. First is the instant availability of a second follow up shot. The second, and let's be honest, is the romance and mystique that goes with them. Maybe we should add the man sized big bore cartridges that they swallow are an attraction. Also, a double with 24" bbls is shorter and handier in the thick stuff than is bolt gun, especially with a scope. So it does have some advantages.

Is it essential for DG and Africa? No. Doubles were the choice for thick skinned DG back when the Brits ruled East Africa. The advent of the .458 Winchester changed the game to the point that by the mid 1960s the double gun industry was more or less dead. A rifle in .458 could be had for 1/20th the cost of a British double of any grade.

I am also a big fan of British made doubles. Those from the Continent do not seem to fit and point as comfortably. The Brits do it better. Better than Heym, Merkel, Ferlach Guild, Sabatti, Chapuis or any other I've handled. My Jeffery's was built in 1909 and shows that at one point in its life it was used regularly and often. I wish it could talk. The bores show abuse from the mercury primers in the old cordite loads that Kynoch made, but the gun is tight and regulates as well as it did the day it came from the factory.

Scope on a Big Bore double (sigh). I will personally horse whip any of my buddies that try stunt. That would be like Marilyn Monroe with a strap on. Somebody might be into that, but not me! Beats the purpose of having Marilyn Monroe. (Kate Upton if you can't bring back a 25 year old MM from the great beyond).

I have killed Cape Buffalo, and their cousins the NW Red Buff and Forest buff with a wide range of cartridges. I've brained one with an 8 mm wildcat. Killed one with a 9.3 JDJ (once was enough, though it was effective). I have taken down a couple of buff on the run after they received a shot with a bigger bore with a .338 WM. Both high shoulder shots that collapsed them instantly. I have had very good results with the 9.3 x 62. However, when I went on a multi buffalo safari in Tanzania, I took the Jeffery's. Walking in tall grass, tracking along thick riverine bush all made me appreciate the double's instant available second shot as peace of mind. Same for Forest buff in Cameroon.

I'm a sucker for the romance of the double rifle for DG, but anything from 9.3 x 62 to .375 to .416 are good. Hit them where it counts and the rest is easy.

Thanks, Jeff!

I must say that since I came back from Zim I've been dreaming of a 375 H&H Rimmed double, which as far as I can see seem to run a little less spendy than the .400's and bigger.

My Merkel is 6# 13oz naked, 8# even scoped.

It is a light, thin barrel'd demon.

At an SCI show Butch Searcy personally measured me for my LEFT HANDED 500 nitro DB. $7000. Fits like a dream. Kicks? Hell yeah! But I would hunt buff with it. Took elephant with it. He made it in 3.25 chamber-old school instead of the common 3" everybody makes. Man does it pound a jumbo!

I hunted in Zimbabwe and Namibia last year with only one rifle, a .375 H&H bolt action. I shot it a lot before left and had great luck on buffalo, leopard and plains game. I had great confidence in it and in Namibia made some relatively long shots. This year I went back to Zimbabwe for elephant and thought if I'm only going to shoot one elephant I want to do it with a double. Bought a .470 and throughly enjoyed working up loads and learning how to load and regulate a double rifle. The irons were a challenge to my 59 year old eyes so I used a red dot to work loads but was pretty determined to use the irons. I was successful in getting a nice bull with the double but upon reflection I think I'm really better with a scoped bolt action. I haven't killed a lot of buffalo but I think most of them would have been difficult or at least I would not have tried with an iron sighted double. There is also having to take two rifles if you hunt anything else and that's a pain. I also think rifles are for using but the double I used was so nice that I was concerned about the wear it was getting as well as what might happen to it while in transit.

Would love to own a double rifle in either .470 or .500 NE to use for buffalo and elephant. But,I grew up using bolt action rifles and am decent with them. I figure I'll just stick with what is comfortable for me,and that is a bolt action. Besides,it is a great joy taking the .460 out and hunting jackrabbits with it.

My observation on this is that most hunters should shoot a scoped bolt gun for DG. It's simple everyone has used a scoped rifle on most game there whole life why change it up when you go on a hunt of a lifetime. It's your job to make that first shot count it's your PH job to stop a bad situation. Had many talks about this around the fire over there and every PH I have been around will agree. I have seen more guys buy a double practice with it and when it was time to get on the plane and go they took there bolt gun because they trust there self with it.

The exception is the guy who has spent the time in the bush been multiple Safaris can afford a proper double and has learned to use it under hunting pressure. This group is a very small amount of hunters. Especially when talking Cape buffalo hunts. Number of double used on elephant rise quite a bit because you want the power and the range is a lot closer.

As a PH goes on DG in my opinion should carry a double. If they need to use it it's a close situation that needs ended quickly. Now some of the great PHs have carried bolt guns but the double just makes more sense. if you ever read Geoff Broom Lifetime on Safari he mentions even thought he carried a bolt gun a lot in his career a PH should carry a double in his opinion.

I decided a bit over a handful of years ago that a M70 416 Rem would be what I would take and bought an early one not long after. I bedded it in a McM stock, swapped the sights for an NECG banded front and Wisner pre-64 African rear and swapped to a Willliams extractor. It feeds/ejects bare brass as well as a multitude of handloads I have tried. It is more than accurate enough and in five or so weeks we will be in Zimbabwe chasing buffalo and sable with the 350 gr TSX over RE-15. I owned a couple of doubles and my eyes just struggle being precise with open sights anymore.

Good luck in Zim....you have the right weapon!

Great thread gentlemen.

I have very limited experience compared to those who have posted above, however I have always been adamant that regardless or where and what one is hunting that fit is a rifle matters as much as with a shotgun. Again I agree most heartily with the comments about practice. with any new rifle I do a great deal of dry firing and live fire practice until the rifles functions instinctively. Live fire practice includes precision shooting, field position, speed drills etc. With a bit of practice a bolt gun can very fast with the second shot.

All the best gentlemen.

GRF

I'll tell you I was beyond s@##$$ kittens when my double 500 didn't show up in Atlanta!!!! Made it back stateside a few days later. No fun!!

Fascinating conversation. Thank you. I've never shot a double rifle, have hunted a lot with a side by side double shotgun.

I own a real nice .375 H&H, on the chance of someday being able to get to Africa for a cape buff hunt, or perhaps tuskless elephant. Budget being what it is, I might be able to afford the African hunt, but not if I buy a double! So, I'll have a Model 70 instead, if I can make it happen.

But please... Continue with the tales of those beautiful double-barrel African Rifles! Love seeing them, and learning about them.

Regards, Guy

The confidence one gives you is impressive. Slamming 2 570 grain solids:BAM BAM!! Into a tuskless cow is a memory. And that unmistakable "ping" that they make as the eject out those empties is worth the price of admission.

Now this is interesting, I hunted in Dande South with HHK safaris. A 1st class operation in a truly nice slice of Africa. Lion footprints over ours, wild dogs, camp leopard etc.. And the PHs are absolutely 1st class. Mine carried a 458 Lott Win 70 but feed it normal 458 solids. We had a apprentice pH that used a BSA 458 win mag. Some other client that was in a fly camp after lion(he got him) came into camp for a @##$,shower and a shave had an old school Rhodesian elephant cropping officer turned PH. A real ornery bastard!! But he used a 450-400 on something like 4000 elephant I was told. I think it was a Westley Richards or Rigby. I did not see it, it was in his truck and he was ranting and raving about how America sucks. He did handle my Searcy field grade 500 and gave it nice compliments.

I'm going to be an observer on a cape buffalo hunt in Africa for the first time next year, but I've been told that a cull hunt in my price range is very probable.
Like other posters here, I can't afford to purchase a double rifle, but it would be a dream come true to have one over my shoulder for what could be a once in a lifetime hunt on the mystical dark continent.
I've been lucky to have friends who've let me shoot their double rifles over the years, so the double rifle bug has been growing in my system for awhile and the booking of the hunt has only made it worse.
Since I don't want to have to sell body parts or prized firearms to be able to afford one, I made the decision to build a double rifle conversion after many hours of research and deliberation.
It'll be chambered in 585HE, a cartridge I've become very fond of, have been reloading for and is more than capable of taking down any animal on this planet with a well placed shot.
After reading several books on the subject and acquiring the needed parts, I should have a tested and reliable double rifle ready for the hunt.
I've been building rifles for awhile now and I think building and hunting with a double rifle in Africa would fulfill my dreams, especially if I'm lucky enough to be able to take a buffalo with it.

Now although I love my double and would smash the gates of hell down with her, I've only once not taken my 375H&H Magnum Winchester M70 lefty. From a client perspective it is all you need. I know for a fact that a 300 grain Hornady Heavy Magnum will punch clean thru a bull Jumbo's head. I've done it.

I've owned a couple double rifles, all in 9.3x74r. Some have been pretty good shooters, two were definitely not. My current is a Chauis, with a single trigger. I prefer single trigger versions, because I've shot a single trigger double shotgun for more than 50 years, and cannot retrain myself to go to the other trigger. I've shot a lot of targets and a few whitetail with my doubles.
A gun needs to fit. My first and second doubles did not fit me and beat the tar out of my face and shoulder. I've owned a couple of 375's and 416's so I'm familiar with recoil. My current rifle needs another 1/4 to 3/8 inch off the butt to fit just right in shirt sleeves. It isn't bad in the recoil department. It is also pretty accurate, meaning I can put six rounds inside a bit over 2 inch circle at 100 yards off sticks. That is on par with what I could do with my other rifles off sticks.
It's handy and shoots well. I'm going to get that little bit of wood off the but, and maybe a little more so it will fit with a jacket. I would take it to Africa if I were going, again. I carry it in black bear season here.
I'm past the mystique, but I do like nice well made guns. It's probably vanity, if I cant be pretty to look at, at least my guns will be.
Bfly

Gun fit is everything. Doesn't make a [bleep] of difference what type of action it is. I had a Beretta 686 o/u 9.3x74R that was one of the most viscous recoiling rifles I've owned. Did't fit worth a damn, and every shot felt like I was getting punched in the jaw. I currently have 9.3x74R's in a Ruger No.1, and a Simson drilling. I can shoot both as long as I feel, and shoot them well. They fit me. The only mystique I see, is does the gun fit you, and are you comfortable and confident with it, and shoot it well? Action type is way down the list for me.

Jeff

Interesting. I happened to see a well-used but decent-shape Chapuis double in 9.3X74R on Gunbroker today... looks like a good deal, I'm tempted! As for double vs single triggers, some of my double shotguns have single selective triggers (including my first and most-used double, an Ithaca-SKB 200E) but I've acquired several double trigger shotguns and I far prefer the double trigger setup. Unlike you, I found the transition from single to double trigger isn't difficult.



Interesting to read that. Clearly I'm not the only one to take some serious damage from an ill-fitting gun!



I think that's where I am on this issue, BF. I'm not saying I won't buy or hunt with a double again, but the mystique of the double rifle has passed for me.

Single trigger doubles??? Philistine!

And a bit risky to boot.

Part of the close-in advantage of a DR is the independent firing mechanisms the double trigger lockwork/double barrel arrangement provide. I recognize failure of a 2nd shot with a single trigger is uncommon, but getting trampled by an elephant or a buffalo is a once in a lifetime event - even rarer but less desirable!

I've only checked out a few Sabatti's that were a total turds. The list is long of Sabatti owners that cant get them to shoot well. Should be able to get a Chapuis used for under 5K if you look around. It should be a much higher quality gun. I had one in 9.3 that shot decent. Only got rid of it as a 375flanged in a Heym popped up that I could not pass up the deal.

Recently had a 400/360 nitro come up for a good price that I have been playing with. So back in the 9.3 game for the moment. Sweet shooting small double.

I agree with the others, If a double does not fit it will be a miserable experience. There have been some very good deals popping up for British guns this year. (Many too short for me) That would be my recommendation if you find one that fits and shoots well.

I personally have no desire to hunt Buffalo/Elephant ever again with anything but a double. Yes you will loose some shot opportunity but I personally prefer to have to get closer for the shot. Much more enjoyable to me. The one buffalo I shot with a scoped rifle at 70 yards was my least favorite. Just seamed too easy.

Mack, I just bought a Merkel 140 in 308 (odd, I know) for a song , just so I can shoot a ton of rounds through it and get my double-rifle Mojo back with the open sights.

Perfect! Sounds like a ball for sure. I have wanted a 7mm-30cal double for some time. Yet to find the right one come up. Will be interested to hear in how she shoots!

I recall someone, some years ago, posting some pictures of a 303 British double rifle. I loved that rifle.

IIRC, Gunner500 has one.

DF

Yes, gunner. Now that I think about it, I think he had it on the pig hunt I went on a few years back.

I believe it's a Manton with exposed hammers. Lovely piece..

Gunner's is a Rodda, IIRC. Though of course it was probably made by someone else & sold by Rodda.

I recall how pleased you were to acquire that rifle.

Not a double, but I had one of my grail guns rudely educate me this past spring. A gent showed up at the Campfire Hog Hunt with a Blaser K95 -- which have always felt to me like magic wands. This one was a 9.3x74. The first clue was its owner got scoped on the first shot with it, and not lightly scoped either, a deep cut over the eye. He offered to let folks shoot it, and I took him up on it, with a mix of anticipation and trepidation. I sat down and crudely jerked the trigger. The little rifle smacked the crap put of me. I didn't bleed but it was no fun at all.

Conversely, many folks complain about Ruger #1's in heavy calibers. We had a safari rifle shoot planned for one of the gatherings, and I bought a NECG rear sight & fiber optic front for the #1 in .458 WM. I eyeballed the sight adjustment as best I could, took it to the range with a load of 70gr of Varget under 500 Hornadys, and fired 3 shots as fast as I could load, aim, & fire - offhand. All the shots landed in a 4-5 inch circle at 50 yards. I stared at the target for a bit, then quickly packed up the rifle, before I jinxed it

Ruark,Crapstick and Hemingway were all raging alcoholics who relied on pen ink and spin merchantry literary license
to make a living.

Then you have people who were actual disciplined hard core hunters including those who relied on rifles to make a living.

Frederick Selous, - offloaded his SxSs replaced with single shots; Gibbs Farquharson, Holland & Holland Woodward pat.,
and .425 Westley Richards mauser.

WDM Bell - had two SxS rifles .318 WR and .450/400 , but throughout his career relied heavily on a range of bolt rifles for
a number of practical reasons. Reliability was of high importance to Bell in remote Africa. SxS rifles did not offer that. His SxS
proved unreliable as did other SxS rifles he witnessed other people using....He still praised the SxS for its beauty and allure,
but thats about it. To employ a SxS as his day in-day out primary go-to safari business tool & life saver, was out of the question.
A problematic SxS was capable of severely crippling a safari, even the speediest option could take months requiring a rifle be
despatched with a runner to a populated centre in hope (but no guarantee) of finding a shop capable of doing such specialised
repairs.

Harry Manners - shot his first ele with 10.75mm mauser, followed by his commercial ivory career of 1000 elephants and
buffalo for meat using pre64 M70 .375 H&H. which he then continued using as a PH.

Harry Selby - initially a Rigby .470NE, got damaged and replaced with .416 Rigby mauser and intermittent .458win M70.
total of 53 full seasons of culling and PH duties, nearly 50 were conducted with a bolt rifle....he had a .450/400 SxS as a
back-up but never had cause to use it. I suspect it was the .450/400 Bell once owned and also relegated to the sidelines.

" The only heavy rifle I could find was a Rigby .416 at a dealer by the name of May & Co.......I bought it.
Little knowing then that decision was one of the most important I would make throughout my hunting career.

So began a lifelong love affair between myself, the .416 caliber, and the Rigby rifle.
.
I very soon realized that this rifle and cartridge combination was for me far superior to any double. The inherent accuracy
of a bolt action was apparent from the very first shot, the phenomenal penetration was to make itself evident as time went by.
I also appreciated the four round magazine, and on several occasions was glad that those four rounds were ready and waiting.

Suffice to say that after about two Safaris I would not have gone back to a double under any circumstances. In the Rigby .416
I had found the perfect Professional Hunters rifle, A beautifully balanced, fast handling weapon propelling a four hundred grain
bullet fast enough to enable it to reach out up to three hundred yards if need be, when trying to bring down a wounded animal,
and yet perform with devastating effect on large dangerous game at close range. I was impressed!!!.

I have to say that this rifle never gave the slightest trouble, it did however, give the most satisfactory service anyone could ask
for, it never let me down, ever!!...Over the years as a Professional Hunter I carried the .416 from the Sudan in the North to
Botswana in the South. There have been some rather tricky situations, and it was largely due to the qualities of the Rigby rifle
and the performance of the 416 cartridge that everyone involved came through unscathed." - Harry Selby.


"...the big bore school, When they quote striking energy in foot pounds, it becomes almost irresistible. The weight of the piece ,
the size of the cartridge, the noise it makes, and the cost of it all, quite overcame the inexperienced man or those of naturally
weak reasoning powers.

Of course its must be recognition that some of the very finest craftsmanship goes into these heavy weapons. they are things of
entrancing beauty and have attraction quite apart from their utility as killers. I myself once fell under their sway.

I bought myself a double .450/400 hammerless ejector first grade by Daniel Frazer of Edinburgh. I knew Frazer well and often
fired his heavy pieces on his regulating range." - WDM bell , American Rifleman 1954.

When recreational hunters and some of todays PHs insist they 'need' a SxS or try to prop it up as superior, I get a chuckle.
however like anything else in life if a person simply wants one and can afford one, then why not.

Isn't the internet wonderful? The number of PHs, whose primary job is to protect the client when things go south, almost to a man, prefer a double. Are their some who prefer a bolt or carry one because that is all they have? absolutely. Bell was not a PH, he was an ivory poacher and by his own admission, he lost count of how many elephants he lost when he was going after large quantities of ivory. The double still remains, a highly specialized tool with inherent limitations, that is without question.

I would love to own and hunt with a SxS double but doubt that will ever happen. I consider them specialized "stopping" rifles although they are fine for hunting as well. But for most I think they are a handicap with iron sights. I think a scope looks out of place and can ruin the balance and handling of a fine rifle. In the past most double rifles were bespoke and fitted to the buyer insuring good fit and handling. Now most hunters are far better equipped with a medium bolt rifle. These are so efficient the need for a stopping rifle is almost eliminated.

I handled and shot a DG double, a 500 NE. I shot it well, wasn't intimidated by it, was amazed by the big push and lack of a harsh jolt.

I like a good bolt gun that fits and shoots, one that's suited for 3-400 yds, as well as close shots.

As previously posted, the DR is a specialized gun, reeking with panache and history.

Just not on my wish list.

DF

Bell still had to protect himself, his trackers, gun handlers and many of his african hired helpers from a range of DG threats on
numerous occasions. he successfully did that while also accumulating hauls of ivory..If a SxS was necessary for such tasks,
he would have employed one.





If prefer to call Bell a commercial ivory hunter.... He succesfully negotiated with remote region tribal chiefs to gain permissible access
to lucrative elephant grounds, I would not put that in the category of 'poaching'. Such remote zones were largely unregulated by
colonial gov... In regulated regions indications are he did obtain the required licenses and obeyed elephant hunting season laws....
again, that is not 'poaching'.

"Passing over to the english side if the Nile, I occupied myself as well as I could obtaining my two elephants allowed
me on my Uganda license from ther sporting herd of cow elephant which then haunted the Gondokoro region.....I fell in
with them only a few miles from the post and manged to kill two passable herd bulls".
- (Bell of Africa p.105)

"Having entered my rifles at Lado and cleared them through the Doune, it was not necessary again to visit a Belgian post.
So when hunting season opened, I already had a herd of bull elephant located. Naturally I lost no time when the date arrived,
that is, the date according to my calculations. This matter is of some importance, as I was afterwards accused of being too
soon. I may have begun a day or even two days before the date, but to the best of my knowledge it was the opening date..."
-(Bell of Africa p.106)



Which Bell publication and chapter is that from?


It was your peabrain weird science internet posts claiming animals can be 'shocked to death' by using larger calibres. almost as funny
as your wacko claim the Twin Towers melted because Boeing 767 carried several hundred thousand gallons of jet fuel...the rational
minded truth is that fuel did not melt beams and B767 has max fuel cap.approx. 23,000 gal ...and nowhere even near that on the day.

Some people with intoxicated imaginations invest smoke and mirrors spin into double rifles like they do terminal ballistics and Sept. 11.

I am currently rereading , "The Green Hills Of Africa." It is interesting that Hemmingway seems to dislike his double, and only carries it when he really, really has to. He seems to prefer his Springfield, even for rhino. I just read about his 300 yard shot on a running hino with the Springfield. That seems like a pretty big stretch, to me, but it's his story.
I had not noticed that he disliked his double the last time I read this book. He complains that it feels 'heavy and unfamiliar' and had a trigger that was like metal struck metal. He talks of flinching and jerking the trigger. This all surprised me, as I remembered him waxing about his double. That happens when your mind gets cluttered with too much pulp fiction.
Bfly

Sure enough DF.

Thanks Steelhead, that little double is right behind me wearing a 40 round culling belt with 215 gr Woodleighs at the ready.

Yup, it's a Rodda Tex, roll marked London and Calcutta.

Quentin Grogan

Grogan came out to British East Africa in 1905 and started hunting in The Lado Enclave in 1907. He was the brother of the famous Col. Ewart S Grogan
who walked from the Cape to Cairo between 1898 – 1899. Grogan was very interested in trying out calibers against elephant some suitable and others
more controversial like the .256 Mannlicher and .280 Ross..also tried the. 450 NE but finally settled on a .318 Westley Richards and a .577 WR both of
which he used until the end of his days as an Ivory Hunter. He shot between 250 and 300 elephant.

Commander Longden

In 1909 Longden went to The Lado Enclave, right from the start he got excellent trophies his best was an enormous elephant with tusks of 141 and 139 pounds
which he shot in 1911. He once wounded an elephant which charged him and was unable to stop it with the 450 NE he was using. The elephant caught him and
began to batter him, and his gun bearer managed to kill it with a brain shot from the .318 Westley Richards. He was in a critical state and so carried across the
Nile to the post of Wadelai where he died. He shot between 60 – 70 elephant.

D. D. Lyell

Dennis D. Lyell in his book The African Elephant and its Hunters 1924 writes ‘if I was going back to hunt in Africa I would buy a couple of .318 Mauser Action
Magazine Rifles, for I believe this is a perfect size as an all round rifle and notwithstanding the critics who have not always had practical experience as a backing
to their opinions, I am no believer in heavy rifles which are usually somewhere in the rear when most wanted’.

James H. Sutherland

In a chapter in his book The Adventures Of An Elephant Hunter Sutherland gives a brief summary of the rifles he used. At the start of his activities in Mozambique
in 1898 he used .303 Military Rifle, 10.75 mm Mauser, .450, .500 NE... bought a .577 NE and .318 Magazine Rifle from Westley Richards.
Once Sutherland began to use .577 and .318 he never felt the need for any other rifles. Sutherland shot between 1,300 and 1,600 elephants.

C. H. Stigand

.256 Mannlicher and .318 WR magazine rifle for his elephant and other DG hunting.

J.A. Hunter (1887-1963)

known as the first "White Hunter" arrived in Kenya from his native Scotland in 1908.Joined the Safari outfitters Leslie & Tarlton and thereafter spent his entire life as
a Professional Hunter in East Africa...used several rifles including .416 Rigby,.505 Gibbs bolt-rifles and 500 NE. held several world records for Big Game at various
times, and lead a group that killed 1000 rhinos in a single year in Kenya.

Col. John Henry Patterson, (man-eaters of Tsavo)

.303cal Lee Enfield sporter and .450/400 SxS

Jim Corbett (man-eaters of Kumaon)

.275 bore Rigby mauser and .450/400 SxS

The tensile strength of structural steel is around 70-80,000 psi at room temp, and about 10,000 psi at red heat ~1300-1350°F. Melting was unecessary; with so much strength lost from the fire & impact damage, it's surprising they stayed up as long as they did.

How do you think a blacksmith works steel with just a hammer? By heating it up red hot first.

My eyes are pretty well lost on open sights anymore and I will not "scope" a double. So a couple of M70's will have to do.

Bullshit, butthole. My reference to shock was dealing with CATS and deer with high vel SMALLER calibers. And on BUFFALO, there IS data to support that a heavy bullet driven FASTER (as in a 400gr 416 at 2350 v 2700) DOES have a definite effect on them. As to your idiotic interpretation of the towers, the reference was to fuel in POUNDS, STUPID. Also, my initial comment was meant to address the overall weight of the entire aircraft. But for the record, how many hours of multi engine jet time do you have and how many safaris have you been on? Proof required of course, otherwise FOAD and stick to cutting and pasting your garbage elsewhere.

All that is great, but we forget an important issue for all hunters in Africa 100+ years ago. The availability and the cost of ammo dictated what they could use. Nitro Express rounds used in doubles have always been pricey. Most of these guys that were ivory hunters were not wealthy landed aristocrats. If they had been, they would have stay in England and lived on their estates, meaning they had to watch their money. Next, the distribution and availability of ammo in various calibers was spotty. Ordering and restocking was slow. Orders went to England by boat, and the order retruned by boat.

Point is they often used what was available. After the Boer War and WWI, 7 x 57 Mauser (AKA .275 Rigby) as well as .303 both with FMJ were readily available. These guys used them, had success, and marched on. Rifles were cheap, as was the ammo.

Speaking of doubles, friend of mine just texted me, TEXTED! from the middle of the Bush in Zim, "41" buff in the salt", he used a Gibbs 450NE double... just saying.

Damn, hell of a deal Jorge!

Here's a pic of his rifle... 1905 manufacture. 28" barrels. Points like a bird gun. lovely

Looks almost brand new. Needs more time inthe bush!

It's pretty worn in real life, Jeff. He's had some rib issues and had it re-regulated. He also took a tuskless with it on his previous safari

Not that this is the forum one would normally debate such things, but tex n cal's engineering background in metallurgy does lend some weight to his response here. The concept of metal fatigue with significant variations from standard temperature is well-established in metallurgical literature.



23,000 gallons of Jet A fuel has a weight of approximately 156,400 pounds. While smaller prop aircraft measure their fuel load in gallons, jet jockeys and big turboprop drivers measure their fuel load in pounds.

Doc, don't bother with the paste and cut king of the fire. I'm still waiting on an answer. Rhetorical, but I think you know I know just a wee bit about jet fuel....

Backtracking, forgetful or just lying?....who knows!

06/15/17 Re: London towering inferno





MTOW of B767-200ER is 395,000 lbs.



WRONG....anyone who has read Bell knows that is false.... but you prefer your own myth-busted garbage.



again, Which Bell publication and chapter is that from?



Valuable quotes from well respected career African hunters who used both SxS and turn-bolt are garbage?
your prefer members read your list of charlatan false claims?

I dont consider 9,3x62 a smaller cal or what people today deem high velocity.




You say theres a whole pile of mystery title books supporting your theory ,then you tell readers you dont rely on any such books
to support your theory.

First the jet fuel, then your Bell nonsense , now this,...Where does the BS and double talk end with you?
credibility next to ZERO.

the actual Boeing 150 page spec sheets on 767 lists gallons, liters, lbs , kilograms,.

Since serial spin merchant JorgeI started off talking gallons, I kept it that way...

I havent forgotten anything like you suggest , I am well aware of their ammunition- logistics issue. Bell clearly highlights the unreliable patchy supply
of SxS big-bore cartridges in remote Africa, a major consideration he took when selecting his rifles & calibres...that aside ,he found .450/400 SxS
unsuitable for persuing elephant in very thick foilage. ..When he pushed through leaves with dried mud from earlier passing elephants, it would
fall into the action as he moved along reloading, preventing it from closing....His .303 sporter proved far more capable of maintaiing function in such
conditions, even better than his M98.

To think it was all about rifle and ammunition cost and supply, is erroneous...In the case of Bell, carrying a 10lb rifle for hrs and many miles in the day,
sometimes running for miles along side fleeing herds to pick off bulls and also fast shooting scenes, where he may take a dozen or nearly twenty bulls
in short minutes, .450 SxS and .416 mauser were a hindrance to nimble fast efficient shooting and an unnecessary weight burden overall.

Bell was not alone , Lyell found big SxS rifles an impractical pain to lug around for arduous long hot days, were more susceptable to jamming or the action
not closing due to common contaminants like grass and small twigs. He found small bore bolt rifles up to 8 lb also offered decisively better handling.
He had a Jeffery .577 SxS but soon got rid of it, as he preferred his .303 (ref: Memories Of An African Hunter- DD Lyell) .Harry Selby also favored a lighter
more dynamic bolt rifle, hence why not long after obtaining his .416 Rigby, he got the tools out and thinned the stock.

Career African hunter? not hardly. Grand total of TWO safaris. How many have you done?
Boeing 767/200 ER MAX FUEL weight= ~161,000 gal and yes I looked it up (again) and my original post WAS an ESTIMATION on my part as I am not rated in that aircraft and the jet I ACTUALLY FLEW only carried a measly 16, 144 lb. So how much flight time do YOU have and are you SURE the Boeing Spec Sheets are 150 and not 152 pages? Just asking...

As to the Bell nonsense, do you really think I'm going to start paging by every tome out there on Bell to to try and find chapter and verse where I read he lost more than a few elephants in his ivory hunting/poaching career? Seriously? Lastly, the high speed issue on Cats is out there as I stated in my OP, only an idiot (like you) would even entertain the thought there's some scientific research on the subject but just events related by Professional Hunters with real world experiences on hunting the Big Cats. I'm crushed I have no credibility with someone who appears to spend his whole existence looking up data on google, but when pressed to show actual bona-fides, slinks away like a roach when the light comes on..

Starman do you even own a double? Have you been on a safari? If so, how many? Where? And for what? Do you own a Rigby bolt gun? If so pictures of you and the rifle in Africa please.

Hoof in mouth Troll disease, internet Ninja...

Calling out and challenging Jorge on subjects like jet airplanes and BG hunting... Laughable.

That basement keyboard 's gotta be smoking...

DF

Here's but one douche bag and from someone whose actually written on the subject.

From The Perfect Shot by Kevin Robertson (Page 122):

"Leopard are thin-skinned and light-boned. In body size they are similar to and not much heavier than a mature impala ram. Like the lion, they have a highly refined nervous system that can easily be switched off by the hydrostatic shock liberated from some of the smaller hunting calibres and bullets that are suitably heavy, fairly fast and relatively fragile."

several hundred thousand gallons
90 thousand gallons
now...161,000 gallons..?

you are saying 767 takes nearly (7x) the max.fuel load Boeing Co. indicates.



WTF?..lol......Nobody needs a 767 rating to be learned on its correct fuel capacity.
Boeing offers its product characteristics data online.

http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commercial/airports/acaps/767.pdf



LOL..several hundred thousand GALLONS was an estimate?...estimates are based on something people already
have a reasonable idea of...you est. (12x) actual fuel cap...now you est. (7x) actual fuel cap....... imbecile.

The mechanics of a bullet passing through game is more about hydrodynamics not hydrostatics.

HYDROSTATIC relating to the equilibrium of liquids and the pressure exerted by liquid at rest.

HYDRODYNAMIC relating to the motions of fluids or the forces which produce or affect such motions.



LOL.. mr Double Talk, why the hell quote from a book source you dont believe in....???
and since you never witnessed 'through your own eyes' dripping molten steel in the TT,..
why then do you believe what you read somewhere???



Theres no credible established terminal ballistic scientific verification,
so how does a P-H really know whats going on inside an animal or why it is reacting a certain way?

oh easy.!....just pluck a 'hydrostatic shock phenomenon' out of thin air and try and make it stick....LOL

Mythical molten steel Twin Towers and B767 carrying a mythical (7x) or more its actual fuel capacity,
African bush Voodoo terminal ballistics,....you evidently are highly susceptable to believing any crapola.

finally,



Who are you talking down specifically?

Right out of the specs. 767 ER :161,740 lb / 73,364 kg. Unlike you, I do not spend my life surfing the net to regale people I don't know with inane statistics. But just for you, I looked up those numbers. again in POUNDS and yes when I first posted I said gallons IN ERROR, because in my entire flying career, we always thought in pounds. As to the Safaris, ME ,you idiot. And again I ask, how much flight time do you have and what type rating and how many safaris do you have under your belt? (rhetorical question, Raisuli)..I suggest you take the issue of the cats with Doctor Robertson, a veterinarian, PH and author of many books on the subject of hunting. Unlike you, I wish I had the time to spend surfing the net and cutting and pasting to impress people.

Dr. Robertson was kind enough to send me this:

Jorge - it is my experience that a leopard can be killed instantly by a healthy dose of hydrodynamic shock when it is dumped into the chest cavity. Have seen this happen a number of times but it only works when the right bullets are used. The South African ammo company PMP make a 300 grain .375 H&H round nose soft point. Comes in a brown box with the picture of a poor quality, sexually immature buffalo bull on it. Heaven help anyone who tries to use these 'cheap and nasty' bullets on a buffalo - because they don't even shoot through an impala! They come apart in spectacular fashion even in impala - like a 300 grain hand grenade! For leopard however these bullets are ideal! I have personally witnessed large mature Tom's die instantly when shot in the chest cavity with these fragile bullets. Careful autopies revealed the CNS were not hit - and yet the Tom's died as if lightning struck. My only assumption to these phenomenon was that it was the rapid release of almost 4000 foot pounds of kinetic energy into the chest cavity while pulverizing the heart and lungs which killed the Tom's instantly. None of these bullets exited so this was 'energy dumping' to the extreme.
Some time ago I helped the knowledgeable folks at North Fork bullets develop a 'feline specific' bullet. They now call it their PP for 'Percussion Point'. Out here in Africa we call them 'Pussy Pounders' because this is what they really are! The regular 300 grain .375 NF SP is fully expanded within about 6 inches of ballistic gelatin penetration. Similar weight and caliber PP's are fully expanded with only 2 inches of similar medium penetration. I confirmed this on a leopard autopsy. On a big Tom, shot behind the shoulder, the entry wound hole through the rib cage into the chest cavity revealed that the PP was fully expanded as it did so. Being a super premium quality, solid shanked expanding-type bullet the PP exited but the wound channel through the thorax was golf ball in size. Leopards die quickly in such instances, but not instantly. It is with good reason why 500 grain .458 NF PP's are now the Kruger National Park's game rangers bullets of choice whenever problem felines need to be dealt with.

More: "on the cats, with their thin skin, small body size and highly developed nervous systems, expanding bullets at HIGH (caps mine) standard and HIGH impact velocities are recommended. There's more but I think that will about cover flybys as the saying goes. Oh, reference: African Dangerous Game Cartridges by Pierre Van Der Walt...

So at least TWO(there are more) world renown PHs authors and or vets say this..

WAIT A MINUTE! Are you one of "those" who think the Towers were an "inside job"? .

Dunno about 767's, but I've done nine (9) safaris thus far, eight (8) of them DG safaris. Have taken multiple elephants and buff, plus one (1) each leopard lion and rhino (the rhino was darted). Completed the Big Five in 2012. Going back to Africa for my 10th safari in June, 2018.

Killed the lion in Zim with a .416 Rigby shooting 400 grain Swift A Frames. Mistake! Bullet zipped through the lungs with no apparent expansion and the cat simply took off. Followup at night was, shall we say, exciting? Found him dead, bled out, with little internal damage. Way too much bullet for a cat, but that was the only soft I had brought. Great buff bullet, lousy cat bullet out of a .416, IMO.

Shot the leopard in 2012. Rifle was an early 50's Winchester Model 70 that started life as a .270. Sent it to Stuart Satterlee (Satterlee Arms), who turned it into a very nice .338 Winchester. Swaro Z6i with illuminated circle dot reticle. Craig Boddington recommended a 225 Partition as a good combo for leopard/PG. When the rifle was completed, Stuart brought it to Superior Ammunition (when they were still in South Dakota) and they made up (among other loads) a 225 Partition at 2,825 fps. Shot under one MOA. Brought that .338 and my .470 on my Namibian safari.

There was a rabies epidemic in the Kudu population when I arrived in Namibia. Plenty of meat on the ground, so the leopards were not coming to bait. The PH used a wounded warthog call and lo and behold, on the afternoon of the first day, a leopard appeared on top of a koppe at a lasered 191 yards. I shot him as he was looking around, broadside, through the lungs. He dropped where he stood and was DRT. Never even twitched.

I've only killed a grand total of two big cats, hardly a large sample size. But based on that, IMO, were I to do it again, for lion I would choose a .375 with a 270 grain Partition, CoreLokt or similar bullet. For leopard, a .30/06 with a 180 grain Partition or CoreLokt is about right. Actually, any good deer rifle (7-08, 7x57, .270, .30/06, .300, etceteras) with a "soft", frangible bullet would work well on a leopard IMO. But be advised that some countries require a minimum of a .375 for any DG, including leopard.

If the cat isn't DRT, I strongly recommend a good double with softs for the followup. I brought my .470 and 500 grain Woodleigh softs (as loaded by Norma), "just in case."

That is nice, my doubles are a Brit, German and a big Frenchman, my grail gun is a British 450-400 NE bar action/sidelock top lever rebounding hammer rifle with stalking safeties with 28" barrels.

I'll have to crack the checkbook and grab one someday.

That's just plain sexy! Gorgeous buff, too! Please pass on my congratulations!

Ed

That is a real beauty.
If I could afford one, I'd have to have a field gun made too, as I would feel guilty about dragging that beauty through the brush.
Nice Buffalo.
Next year I'm hoping to have my own experience with my double and a beast too.
SJC

Why own something less suitable?
Early 90s onward, I spent some yrs checking out the pre-owned market, even visited English and German
manufacturers...I gave the idea long and fair consideration.
I had keen interest in .30 Holland&Holland, perused some b/a sidelocks, but found them too weighty and
uweildly before a scope...some neat 9,3x74s were actually much better in that regard but not the chambering
for me. Regardless of affordability and how much I liked them, they just were not practical enough. I didnt
allow mystique and peoples obtuse waffle to overrule rational minded logic.

I found myself prefering magazine arrangements with more practical syn.stocks, not bling termite food,
(been there done that).....22" 30/06 bolt rifle gave me a lighter, more accurate, better swinging QD scoped rig,
similar OAL, SxS velocities or greater, without the headaches and limitations....I didnt read books on past
great african hunters at all back then,when I began to, I found the logic-pragmatic reasoning for avoiding
SxS in favor of B-Rs, was very similar to mine. I happen to come to my own such conclusions without any undue
influence from them, nor was I on any gun forums. Im much inclined to think my tradetime in maintaining-trouble
shooting industrial equipment that was required to run 365 days/yr, influenced my pragmatic approach to hunting
rifles....I believe Harry Selby was a motor mechanic before a PH.....no suprise the most defensive and dismissive
SxS owner Ive come across was an ivory tower paper shuffling attorney who would need his secretary to sort out
his jammed office stapler.

Other hand, I found owners of co. like Hartmann & Weiss rather humble, they didnt carry on about the SxS rifle like
some largely obnoxious irrelevant internet mouthpiece folk do. Some would be surprised how little they may have
to say. I gather its a valuable understated business manner approach one attains from time at J.Purdey & Sons.
They prefered to educate,discuss and demonstrate in house design improvements they had developed- employed
in manufacture. I took that to mean that getting a SxS should be entirely my decision, but also to make me aware
of what differences they offered and I may like to consider, should I end up deciding on SxS.

H&W are both traditional and innovative, I will highlight in color;

Otto & Gerhard are great admirers of the British designs and regarding actions,
the SxS Boss design is their mainstay SxS action for shotguns ,and the Beesley for SxS rifles.
H&W are flexible in that they will build you a Beesley action gun with Boss single triggers and
Holland-southgate ejectors, in order to offer the best in style with the best mechanical designs.

H&W also have engineered innovative improvements to the British designs,
examples of this are:

1 - springs built into the cocking rods and safety sears to eliminating parts & screws in its self-openers
2- Modification of the Boss single trigger turret for easier disassembly
3- Roller tips on mainsprings to eliminate the breakage prone tumbler link
4- where U/O ejectors cam on the action, hardened steel inserts are installed to prevent wear.


Took op. to also check .30cal H&W mag.mauser...was a (not light) long barrelled unit ,
not something I would want to lug around from dawn till dusk.



Several very good custom mauser options out there, why does it have to be a Rigby? my 1909 was built
better than a catalogue item 'name dropping' Rigby....what floats your boat doesnt mean it floats mine.
Rigby at that time was recently Californian, I didnt like their products and the old orig. Rigby examples
I came across didnt seem that spectacular but still carried the price.
Even the 1909 was given a new home in favor of stainless-synthetic tools...no regrets, looking back
should have done it earlier. Sometimes you dont see the blue/walnut hype one gets caught in until you
step back some,(same with SxS). Everything is a trade-off for one thing or another. I am a pragmatist,
and with choosing bolt-rifles I dont find I lost anything of practical significance to me,actually more the
contrary.




One specifically needs a SxS or specifically a Rigby and Africa to qualify?...wow thats rather narrow minded.
do you have anymore of your own strict personal criteria 'loaded' questions?

btw: have you decided yet what calibre to use to 'save your P-Hs life'...?....LOL.
recreational vacation hunters planning heroic stunts..Ask Tim Herald how his save the PH stunt worked out,
hilarious to say the least...any other idiosyncrasies you care to share?...

you remind me of this kind of show pony gas-bagging talk....

"Were going to track him, were going to hunt him down, were going to find him, then we're going to kill him!"
- Mark Sullivan

LOL, well when its a video called 'Greatest Hippo Charges' and youre whispering at a hippo wallow, uber cal.SxS
on your shoulder, thats the prevailing thing already in viewers minds isnt it? ....a savy 8 yr old watching would
already know that, but MS finds need to tell his mature age adult bigbore SxS fans what 'the game plan is' ...
why the halfwit simple simon stuff?

It seems to me that there are pros and cons with every type of rifle, some more than others, but whatever you choose you have to practice with it until its use is cemented into "muscle memory" and until you can be confident with it.

My own experience with my double, a very utilitarian 9.3x74, and with various break actions such as drillings, combination etc, is that they can be made up into compact and handy hunting arms. A double can also be regulated to shoot accurately enough to put one or two into the vitals of an animal, and if it fits you properly it should enable you to do so very quickly. There again a bolt action which fits you properly should enable you to put the first one in about as quick, though the second shot, if required, will take rather longer.

With practice you can also put in a third and fourth in pretty short order with a double too - and the fourth round about as quick as that from a bolt action in my own actual experience (culling buffalo in Oz, not Africa). I don't know about the reliability aspect - something like a Mauser 98 which has been properly set up for the calibre it is chambered for is a pretty well-proven platform under the worst of conditions. A double also is rather dependent on sticking with a particular load, and not really the go if you want to try different ones. Not really likely to be a long-range sort of number either, especially with open sights.

Guys, a fellow member of AR, Todd Williams, recorded a video oh him with his 500 NE Verney Caron and his friend with a bolt 416 Rigby in a side by side comparison of getting off four aimed shots as fast as possible. Todd's pretty apt with his double and he did indeed get four shots off faster. I certainly could not have done it, but he clearly showed it could be done. I see the google posting bullshitter continues to pound us with spam and conveniently avoid answering straight questions. The inexorable takeover of this website by trolls continues unabated whilst the moderators stand by and let it happen...

Jorge, his posting style reminds me a LOT of Larry Root. Same disingenuous posting, same braggadocio, same smarmy replies, and never proof of anything, just exercising his Google-fu.

Pathetic little man.

Ed

It's not Larry, but it's another sock puppet that's been here before. Larry is now posting under JamesEssex

Got it.

Ed

You ought to.

I hear you drink enough of it.

It's hard to ignore the cool factor and satisfaction of owning and using a double rifle, jorge. I've had and hunted with several. They're heavy and limiting in scope, but we don't always need what's most appropriate. The mere satisfaction of making a great Classic do its job is a bit of victuals to the soul.

Would I choose a DR over a good magazine rifle on a buffalo hunt? I can't say I would or wouldn't. I killed one with a single shot out of a combination gun, but I had two good back-ups with 416s standing nearby.

That's what my wife calls the Lagavulin single malt I drink, JP!

LOL...mine calls good Scotch turpentine. It's all in their personal perspective.

I can't see any reason to hunt with a double except for the "cool" factor. I've been on three safaris, all with a bolt action. A couple of experiences come to mind.

My first elephant took off running at the shot, as they tend to do except for a brain shot. I got in two more shots before it disappeared. Were all three necessary? I dunno. Could I have done that with a double rifle? No.

My second buff fell down at the first shot. Although I didn't know it, it's spine was broken. What I did know was that it kept its head up, so I kept shooting. Four shots total and all hit. That would have taken longer with a double.

Once when tracking a buff herd, we came across a good zebra, which I shot with my .375. The range was a bit beyond what I might have attempted with a double.

So it goes. I disagree with those who say you can get a third or fourth shot off as fast with a double as a bolt. Under carefully set up conditions, some can no doubt do it. But who is going to hunt all day with two extra cartridges stuck between the fingers of their left hand, or whatever? To say nothing of dropping them in the mud under the pressure of a fast reload. In the real world a bolt action is faster. I even think it's almost as fast for the second shot if you know how to work the bolt while the rifle is recoiling (most people don't).

I am a Sporting Clays shooter and realize that, with my shotgun, I can fire the second shot a lot faster. But 12 gauge target loads do not recoil as much as a .470 Nitro Express, and I'm not trying to hit the CNS. In fact, most good shotgunners don't even look at the bead, but just the target. I don't think you can do that with a rifle. As for looking at rifle sights, target acquisition is a lot faster with a scope than with iron sights, no matter how good your vision is.

Double guns have a purpose and that's why there still around and carried by many PH's while going into harms way.
Doubles are less prone to malfunction and fouling by design.
They work and with proper care, will last many owners lifetimes.
Would you try shooting a true pair on the sporting clays course with a bolt action shotgun ? That's what I thought.
You won't be in the same time zone compared to using a double barrel.
Like hunting with a handgun, you need to know your limitations and that's part of being a responsible hunter.
If your comfortable and more proficient with a bolt rifle, knock yourself out, not everyone can be as cool as a hunter with a double rifle (~ :

I can only go on my own experience, which has been in the field, on live targets. It surprised me a little too, to be frank with you, and surprised the bloke with me who was using a bolt action. FWIW we were both using 9.3s.

I'd also add that I don't hold rounds stuck between my fingers either. I agree with you that it would not work. I have additional rounds on a cuff on the butt, and I reload with my right hand from there.

In the real world a bolt is pretty fast - more than a few times I've shot 3, 4 or even 5 pigs with one before they've got to cover (sometimes I've stuffed in a couple more rounds and got the odd straggler too). No argument there. It isn't as fast for the second shot as a double though, based on my own experience with both.With something like a .470 vs a bolt of a similar level of recoil things might be different, but I don't have the experience to comment on that.



Yeah, I agree with you there too. I have rifles with peep sights, open sights and scopes, and I first learned to shoot using open sights, but if the rifle fits, and the scope is mounted properly, I find the scope fastest and the open sights slowest.The scope's best in poor light too, and for getting a good aim when your target is obscured. .

My double, like several other rifles I own, has a scope with hand-detachable mounts, so I could use the open sights if I wanted to, but with that particular rifle the only time I've actually used the open sights is at the range, to check their alignment. The only real use I have for open sights on rifles nowadays, other than shooting the odd competition where they are mandated, is as a backup for rain or in case the rifle/scope should take a knock.

Cheers!

The Poohbah hurt my feelers when he told me my fine bottle of Glenmorangie 12 year would be good for starting brushpile fires.

you conveniently left out important details...

Todd Williams had there a .416 Rigby bolt rifle prone to jamming,(which it did), in other words he employed an unprepared--untuned
DGBR in a contest against his own SxS...it was not fair & balanced...so you can void the test right there...Todd also openly admitted
he likely would not be anywhere near that good with SxS in a real DG charge..('up a tree' after the second shot - I think his type words were)

A well know PH wrote and suggested the test was irrelevant.. because all such lame speed contest shooting bets "are off"
in the dynamics of a real charge situation.



unfortunately Jorge has a poor understanding of 'substantive' ..

if you ever see the video in question its typical youtube type entertainment stuff, iirc, even Todd Williams indicated
that it should not be given it much credence.

His book claims 'hydrostatic'...but his letter to you claims , 'hydrodynamic'....?

HYDROSTATIC - relating to the equilibrium of liquids and the pressure exerted by liquid at rest.
HYDRODYNAMIC - relating to the motions of fluids or the forces which produce or affect such motions.



I am of 'those' who want to see your evidence of beams becoming molten steel in the Twin Towers.
16 yrs ago now, ...whats taking you so long?

That's one of my favorites. Invite me over, dammmmit!