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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,054
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,054 |
I suspect you won't be disappointed, in either accuracy or anything else.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,874
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,874 |
In reality a 20" 308 is very hard to beat. I prefer 22-24"
"I never thought I'd live to see the day that a U.S. president would raise an army to invade his own country."
Robert E. Lee
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,874
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,874 |
I feel that in 1952 the US Army improved both the .300 Savage and the .30-06. Sho' got that right!
"I never thought I'd live to see the day that a U.S. president would raise an army to invade his own country."
Robert E. Lee
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,257
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,257 |
Expat, I shoot 165's exclusively in my 308's. This past year I shot a dandy 6pt bull elk in the front leg knuckle with a 165 Hdy BTSP. You could hear the "crack" when the bullet hit that very large bone. The bull dropped at the shot. The Hornady completely broke the knuckle and penetrated the chest cavity. Pretty impressive all around.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,749
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,749 |
I have yet to weigh a short and long action of the same make/design and find more than a 4-ounce difference. This includes NULA's, Remington 700's, Savages, and post-'64 Winchester Model 70's. This is 1/4 pound, which is often less than wood stocks vary in weight. The reason some (not all) .308's weigh considerably less than .30-06 is due to other factors than action length.
If you compare different rifles, yeah, some .308's kick more than some .30-06's. In the same model of rifle the .308 will recoil noticeably lighter, despite weighing 1/4 pound less.
If somebody wants to use 200-220 grain bullets they're probably better off with the .30-06, but there's very little reason to for most big game hunting. Have seen plenty of big game animals up to "elk size" killed with the .308, and with today's 150-180 grain bullets there's no discernible difference. This is partly because the .308 beats the original muzzle velocities of the .30-06--velocities that resulted in the .30-06's great reputation on big game, back when iron sights were the norm.
At one point a number of years ago I owned six .30-06's, but finally realized I mostly hunted with one, the NULA I've used on more big game than any of my other rifles over the past 20 years. It's probably the most accurate .30-06 sporter I've ever shot, but have owned several .308's that were more accurate--and cost far less. Based on considerable time with Melvin Forbes, I'd guess he'd agree that on average .308's shoot more accurately than his .30-06's.
Part of accuracy, however, is how easy it is to get certain cartridges to shoot well. This is a controversial subject, because some shooters don't believe in "inherent accuracy." Others do. I've written more than one article about this subject, but David Tubb says the .308 is among the 3-4 cartridges easiest to get to shoot very accurately.
Right now my only .30-06 is the NULA. It's not only accurate but a great travel rifle, partly because ammunition that works well on big game can be bought anywhere ammo can be purchased. Due to the superb synthetic stock, and titanium nitride metal coating, it's also weather-proof.
But I also own several .308's, and hunt with them more and more, because they do the same things on 99% of the world's big game without kicking as hard. Despite my semi-advanced age I'm still not particularly recoil sensitive, but don't see any reason to get kicked harder if there's no reason.
The heaviest of my .308's is a pre-'64 Model 70 Winchester Featherweight weighing 7-1/2 pounds with scope, but my favorite is my Merkel single-shot, which despite its fancy walnut, weighs exactly the same as my NULA .30-06. In neither the Model 70 or Merkel rifle is "action length" a factor. Instead, they just shoot well and kick less than the NULA. I won't ever sell the NULA, and will still pick it for a lot of hunting, but the instances it's chambering would work noticeably better than any of the .308's would be very rare indeed.
Many thanks. I'm comfortable with .308 performance. One thing that appeals to me about the .308 is the number of posters that mention its inherent accuracy. I think part of this is because my .30-06's accuracy is inconsistent. I'm drawn to the potential for a consistently higher level of accuracy. I have never had a 30-06 that did not shoot well...nor a 308. As far as perceived recoil goes...some of that is a function of stock design. I've owned (5) 30-06s. Felt recoil was not the same for all of them. My first was a 70s model 700 BDL. The recoil of that rifle was abusive, so much so that I rarely shot it. I kept it for sentimental reasons...and because it was a 70s model Remington (build quality/beautiful rifle). My second 06 was a Savage (110?) that I bought on clearance at Wal Mart. Recoil was completely different. It changed my mind about the 06. My current 06 is a 700 stainless SPS. It is a sweet shooter. It will shoot my handloads consistently under 1 MOA. I cannot speak to inherent accuracy. I do know that my 06 will hold tighter 5 shot groups out to 250 yards than my two heavy barreled 308s. Maybe it was just the luck of the draw.
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,912
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,912 |
I know my .308 kicks way less than my three 30-06 Husqvarna's did or my 760 Carbine. Now I have spent some range time with a Browning A Bolt Medallion .30-06 that was as mild as my T/C 308.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,257
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,257 |
As far as perceived recoil goes...some of that is a function of stock design.
Yes. Which is why I said a page back, "In identical rifles, loaded to their full potential, I find the 308 kicks noticeably less."
The quickest way to find this is true is shoot the essentially identical Kimber 84M Montana 308 side-by-side with a Kimber 84L MT 30-06 (as I have done). Even though the 30-06 MT weigh's 4oz's more, I'd defy anyone on this thread that says they can't tell the difference between the two to NOT feel the difference between the two.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,748
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,748 |
My current .30-06 elk load features a 150 grain bullet. The .308 launches 150s at 2800-2900 and 165s at 2700-2800. I keep thinking, "What can't I do to an elk with a Partition or Accubond at those speeds?"
I'm pretty sure the elk will be just as dead as with any other cartridge pushing the bullet.
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,582
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,582 |
I have two .30/06s, but really I could not see any reason anymore to worry if they were .308s instead. I've shot a lot of .308 too.
I really think any differences between them aren't worth worrying about, at least for my own purposes. I accept that the .30/06 is better adapted to heavier bullets, but I only use 150 gn and 185 gn bullets - and not that many of the latter either. I have tried 220 grainers on some big pigs and couldn't see that they offered an advantage over the 150s I usually use. A couple of my mates tried heavier bullets, up to Woodleigh's 240 gn, on buffalo and feral bulls, but they weren't wildly impressed either. I have bigger rifles for big stuff anyway.
For my use, a .308 would make no difference. No real advantage either way really. Sure, a .308 could be made up in a short action, and save 1/2" of length and maybe a tiny bit of weight, assuming we're talking about a repeater, but the difference either way is pretty trivial. My little Browning Stainless .30/06 is light enough, though I was sorely tempted by a mate's Remington 700 Ti that I took out to shoot a bunch of pigs one time. I really don't see any practical difference in killing power or trajectory, and as far as accuracy goes I've shot some exceptionally accurate examples of both. I also don't find the .30/06's recoil an issue, though it is at about this level that I do start to prefer a recoil pad. I can find a greater difference in relative recoil between .308 and .30/06 just by changing propellant, and if recoil was a bother it isn't hard to load or even buy loads with a bit less.
Ultimately if I was to be buying a new rifle it would be a matter of what was available, between these two, rather than insisting on one of these calibres over the other. I just don't think the differences between them are enough to matter.
YMMV
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,273
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,273 |
If I didn't reload I would go with the 308. I would shoot mostly the 147 gr FMJ stuff. I would shoot that off a bench, several groups, to see what the accuracy potential of that ammo is, and it really doesn't matter exactly what it is. Then I would shoot positions using that accuracy potential as a standard. Then for hunting I would simply re-zero for that ammo.
Your ability to handle that rifle in the field in different positions, using it smoothly and instinctively, mean a great deal more than the actual ability to shoot tiny groups. I've seen too many guys fumble in the field because they never got off the damn bench.
Last edited by Armednfree; 08/30/17.
The older I become the more I am convinced that the voice of honor in a man's heart is the voice of GOD.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 4,914
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 4,914 |
As far as perceived recoil goes...some of that is a function of stock design.
Yes. Which is why I said a page back, "In identical rifles, loaded to their full potential, I find the 308 kicks noticeably less."
The quickest way to find this is true is shoot the essentially identical Kimber 84M Montana 308 side-by-side with a Kimber 84L MT 30-06 (as I have done). Even though the 30-06 MT weigh's 4oz's more, I'd defy anyone on this thread that says they can't tell the difference between the two to NOT feel the difference between the two. This. I've been shooting a Tikka T3 in 308 side by side with a Tikka T3x in 30-06. The T3x has a slightly better recoil pad, but with loads that push a 147-grain bullet at 2,800 fps in both rifles (CMP ammo in the 30-06 and and milspec in the 308), the difference is definitely there. I've begun to think of the 308 as the Recoilless Rifle. Okie John
If Montana had a standing army, a 270 Win with Federal Blue Box 130's would be the standard issue.
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,583
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,583 |
I do not intend to start a brawl. I love the .30-06 and have owned one since 1984. I'm considering buying a .308, so I don't have anything against it either.
The question remains, if buying a rifle today, is there any significant reason to choose one over the other?
I'm considering replacing my .30-06. It is an inconsistent performer and I'm a little tired of jacking around with it. It is a mid-'80s vintage rifle. The rifle is pretty much dedicated to elk hunting. I use my .243 for pretty much everything smaller. The intent is to move to one of the dependably accurate modern platforms. I primarily shoot factory ammo these days. My .30-06 elk load is a 150 grain mono.
My thought regarding the .308/.30-06 question is why not consider moving to a different, yet still readily available, elk cartridge when I get a new rifle?
.308 factory loads launch 165s at 2700-2800 so I have no concern about my ability to kill elk with a .308. The .308 is known as an inherently accurate cartridge, but is it significantly more accurate than the .30-06? I do I like printing small groups and hitting 10" gongs out to 550 yards.
I know the .308 recoils a bit less and rifles chambered for it are slightly shorter and lighter. I recognize that as a small advantage, but was never bothered by the length, weight, recoil or bolt throw of my .30-06. There is some .30-06 sunk cost as I have about 270 rounds of .30-06 ammo (some of which my current -06 does not shoot well) and reloading dies, though as I mentioned previously, I primarily shoot factory ammo these days.
Thanks in advance,
Expat The 308 allows for a somewhat shorter, lighter rifle. That's important to some, but you've already said it's not important to you. (I'd try handling a light short action 308 before you make your mind up on this.) The 308 is potentially more accurate, but you'd only see the difference in a full blown target rifle. Important to benchresters, not important to you. The 30-06 handles heavy (over 180 grain) bullets better. Again, not important to you. "My .30-06 elk load is a 150 grain mono". Given that every advantage I can think of for the 308 is not important to you and that you already have 30-06 dies and ammo, I'd just buy a better 30-06. See if you can find a nice J.C. Higgins Model 50 or 51. That will solve your accuracy issues.
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Posts: 5,749
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2003
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Might be more cost effective to find a good "bullet" that his current 06 shoots well than "buying another 06" hopping that it will shoot the bullet he currently uses well.
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,036
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Let's simplify things and forget about all the ballistic gack. The 30-06 is for men, the .308 is for women!!!!!
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,912
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,912 |
Let's simplify things and forget about all the ballistic gack. The 30-06 is for men, the .308 is for women!!!!! Here we go again. No surprise that it's coming out of New York again.
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,300
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,300 |
Let's simplify things and forget about all the ballistic gack. The 30-06 is for men, the .308 is for women!!!!! I know your being funny, because its the internet and no one is that stupid.
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Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 178
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 178 |
Many discuss the 308 with lighter bullets. But, the penetration of a 200 grain bullet in the 308 can be impressive.
There was no greater freedom than when I would leave Holiday Park Fish Camp heading my airboat west toward the Big Cypress. Fuel for 4 days, a good machete, an ice chest. No phone, no radio. Just God and me and the Everglades.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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The 308 allows for a somewhat shorter, lighter rifle. That's important to some, but you've already said it's not important to you. (I'd try handling a light short action 308 before you make your mind up on this.) I find that short action rifles also tend to balance better. If you think about it, the traditional balance point is the front action screw. Long-action rifles have more weight aft of that point, so they tend to feel a little lighter in the muzzle than a short-action rifle of the same model when all other factors are equal. Okie John
If Montana had a standing army, a 270 Win with Federal Blue Box 130's would be the standard issue.
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,743
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Posts: 21,743 |
The 06 will out perform the 308, fact.
They are so close that if the 308 isn't enough,
the 06 probably ain't either.
There is a reason for 300 and up magnums.
Parents who say they have good kids..Usually don't!
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It's good to know that there are still people who can detect sarcasm!
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