I do not intend to start a brawl. I love the .30-06 and have owned one since 1984. I'm considering buying a .308, so I don't have anything against it either.
The question remains, if buying a rifle today, is there any significant reason to choose one over the other?
I'm considering replacing my .30-06. It is an inconsistent performer and I'm a little tired of jacking around with it. It is a mid-'80s vintage rifle. The rifle is pretty much dedicated to elk hunting. I use my .243 for pretty much everything smaller. The intent is to move to one of the dependably accurate modern platforms. I primarily shoot factory ammo these days. My .30-06 elk load is a 150 grain mono.
My thought regarding the .308/.30-06 question is why not consider moving to a different, yet still readily available, elk cartridge when I get a new rifle?
.308 factory loads launch 165s at 2700-2800 so I have no concern about my ability to kill elk with a .308. The .308 is known as an inherently accurate cartridge, but is it significantly more accurate than the .30-06? I do I like printing small groups and hitting 10" gongs out to 550 yards.
I know the .308 recoils a bit less and rifles chambered for it are slightly shorter and lighter. I recognize that as a small advantage, but was never bothered by the length, weight, recoil or bolt throw of my .30-06. There is some .30-06 sunk cost as I have about 270 rounds of .30-06 ammo (some of which my current -06 does not shoot well) and reloading dies, though as I mentioned previously, I primarily shoot factory ammo these days.
Thanks in advance, Expat
Last edited by ExpatFromOK; 08/28/17.
"There are no dangerous weapons. There are only dangerous men." - Robert Heinlein
In this day and age I wouldn't think there is a significant reason to choose one over the other. The performance of today's 308 Win certainly meets, or even exceeds, what the 30-06 was when it earned its fine reputation.I haven't shot an elk with either, but plenty seem to do so without complication. Dead is dead. I can say the 308 has been very easy to load for in a couple different rifles and makes a very pleasant to shoot rifle. The only reasons I'd ever choose the -06 would be to shoot heavies, or for sentimental reasons.
I like the 30-06, got three. If I already had loaded ammo, components and dies for it as you do that's what I'd stay with and hope to get a 30-06 that shot better. If I had a 308 with all that I'd stay with the 308. IMO you can't go wrong with either cartridge.
I own and like both calibers. I think it's a bit easier to get a .308 to shoot small groups than a 30-06, but not by a lot, and I have a couple of 30-06's that shoot sub MOA groups on average. I do have a slight preference for a 30-06 as an elk rifle because it has a little more power and a slightly flatter trajectory. But either cartridge should work just fine. It really comes down to personal preference.
I'm not a gunwriter, but these are my thoughts. I hunted exclusively with a 30-06 from 1974 until about 10 years ago when I decided to buy a Kimber and 308 seemed a better option than 30-06 in a rifle that weight. I've since added 2 more 308's and the 30-06 has only been hunted one time since. That was 7 years ago and I don't see any reason to go back. The Kimber is right at 6 lbs scoped and recoil is on par with a 7.5 lb 30-06. Or my 7.5 lb 308 has about 25% less recoil than either the 30-06 or the 6 lb 308.
The better current 308 loads beat 30-06 loads from the 1950's by at least 100 fps. Of course modern 30-06 will always be 100-150 fps faster than 308 with the same bullet weights. I figure the 30-06 gives me another 75-100 yards of effective range before bullet impact speeds are too slow for adequate expansion. But the 308 still does that at ranges farther than I have the skills to shoot. I'll never hunt anything too big for either of them, and if the 308 ain't big enough to get the job done 30-06 ain't enough bigger to matter.
I don't think there is any mechanical accuracy advantage. But I shoot my standard weight 308 rifles better than my 30-06b rifles.
It may seem that I'm knocking 30-06. That isn't my intent, I really can't say anything negative about the round. It served me well for a very long time. But at this point in my life I just like the 308 a little better.
Most people don't really want the truth.
They just want constant reassurance that what they believe is the truth.
I look at all the semi auto and tactical bolt action .308's and my impression is that the .30-06 is the past and the .308 is the now. And perhaps the future as well.
In some cases, like the Ruger 77 RSI, the length of the action will contribute to a rifle balancing either better or worse than its long/short action counterpart.
Or in cases where the rifles in question were only made in long actions, so the magazines were blocked and a different bolt stop was used when short cartridges were chambered.
I've owned several of both. In equal weght rifles shooting same weight bullets and full power loads I personally could never detect a difference in felt recoil. I tend to prefer short action rifles for the simple fact that you can mount todays shorter tubed scopes more easily for correct eye relief without resorting to butt ugly picatinny rails or offset rings. Never saw any definitive, meaningful accuracy advantage to the .308 in my hunting rifles. All that said, I still prefer the old '06 between the two for it's history and because the .308 is a short, squatty, uninspiring, dumpy looking little cartridge.
Like em both myself, never had a bit of trouble getting either round to shoot. However in your case I would get another 30-06 or have the one you have gunsmithed to the point of satisfaction.
I like the 30-06, got three. If I already had loaded ammo, components and dies for it as you do that's what I'd stay with and hope to get a 30-06 that shot better.
YEP, you're already ahead of the game with what you have.
OTOH, if you want a short, squatty, dumpy cartridge, the 308s the one.
I like the 30-06, got three. If I already had loaded ammo, components and dies for it as you do that's what I'd stay with and hope to get a 30-06 that shot better.
YEP, you're already ahead of the game with what you have.
OTOH, if you want a short, squatty, dumpy cartridge, the 308s the one.
How's that M Mike ?
Jerry
LOL. Grandpa was a .30-06 guy and so was Dad. Just like Grandpa's and Dad's all across the land have been and are .30-06 guys. When I see the younger crowd at the range they normally have a 7.62X39 or .308 if they have a .30 caliber. I recently read an article that the .308 is now outselling the .30-06.
I prefer the 30-06, anything the .308 will do the 30-06 will do, plus some. That said I like the 308 also, I have two of each 308 and 06.. I believe the new bullets and powders have helped both calibers! I'm a hunter, not a target shooter. As far as accurate both are as good as any other caliber! Now to your problem. Buy a .308 and keep the 30-06, remember your issue is the rifle not the caliber! You'll have something to accurize in you spare time!
If you have a 30/06 load with mono bullets that you trust on elk, there's no reason to not use it on other game too. Now....if you want to buy another rifle, you don't need an excuse to justify it to the rest of us rifle loonies
NRA Life,Endowment,Patron or Benefactor since '72.
I prefer the 30-06, anything the .308 will do the 30-06 will do, plus some. That said I like the 308 also, I have two of each 308 and 06.. I believe the new bullets and powders have helped both calibers! I'm a hunter, not a target shooter. As far as accurate both are as good as any other caliber! Now to your problem. Buy a .308 and keep the 30-06, remember your issue is the rifle not the caliber! You'll have something to accurize in you spare time!
I'm actually thinking about this. Take my time and bed and free float the barrel on the .30-06.
"There are no dangerous weapons. There are only dangerous men." - Robert Heinlein
Velocity wise if you are a handloader then a 30-06 could give you an edge, factory loads the 308 get as much or more with less recoil. I own both and prefer the 30-06 for irrational reasons. In reality a 20" 308 is very hard to beat.
Save yourself some grief.... send the rifle to Redneck, have him re barrel with a Lilja in factory contour for your 30-06 and bed it... Problem solved.
When people face the possibility of freezing or starving there is little chance they are going to listen to unfounded claims of climate doomsday from a bunch of ultra-rich yacht sailing private jet-setting carbon-spewing hypocrite elites
Meh. The .308 is a newfangled idea that'll never catch on. The utility of both the '06 and .308 pales in comparison to the .30-40 Krag, or even the upstart .30-30. I hear Charlie Newton is playing with a new .30 barnstormer, and Savage is rumored to be tinkering with their own .30 candidate. (And I hope Wilson keeps us out of that European War.)
Push a .30 bullet to 2500-3000fps and good things tend to happen. Doesn't matter much what the platform is. All I've heard so far is a lot of hair splitting, inconsequential differences in real world efficiency, irrational preference, and innuendo. If your goal is to pack 400 rounds of ammo in magazines for your weapon in addition to a full pack and other gear, then the .308 is your baby- save five pounds of weight over a load of '06's. Otherwise, close your eyes and pick one and go forth and kill stuff.
Perhaps the world is ready for a .30 Creedmoor...
Last edited by gnoahhh; 08/28/17.
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz "Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
I feel that in 1952 the US Army improved both the .300 Savage and the .30-06.
Of course they could have skipped the 30-40 Krag, 30-03, 30-06, and 308 if they had just opted for the 7.65x53 in 1892.
Indeed, there is that. What the heck were those old guys thinking?!
Probably that home grown is better than foreign, but they were wrong. Of course, if they have gone with the 7.65x53 the military industrial complex would have missed multiple profit opportunities and all that tax money could have been spent on other useful things like education, health care, and infrastructure construction and maintenance.
... Perhaps the world is ready for a .30 Creedmoor...
That was the .30 TC, absolute commercial flop and the rifle it rode in on (TC Icon).
Decent rifle, but the .30 TC solved a non-existent problem.
if we're voting .308 vs .30-06, I usually recommend a new hunter for his first or only Arizona hunting rifle get a .30-06. But when lead meets venison, it really doesn't matter much what the headstamp says.
Wow! This has gone to the second page without anyone making vitriolic pronouncements. I'd say that times really do change.
Differences? From personal experience, I'd say that the 30-06 was a better starting place for me as a reloader. It may be insignificant, but my first loads with the '06 were perfect the first time out. I had to go through multiple iterations with my first 308 WIN before I found one that would group properly.
I will also say that the recoil tables don't tell the whole story of the differences between the two. If you look them up in most tables, the 308 WIN has less recoil with the same bullet. However, that's assuming the rifle weight remains constant. In reality, the 308 WIN is fired from a short action, which normally weighs less. For a big guy like me, it's no big deal. However, with a younger shooter, it can be a problem. Both my sons graduated from 30-30 WIN to 30-06 for deer rifles and preferred '06 over 308 WIN. KYHillChick also shoots a 30-06.
I loved my 308's, my last one went on a trade for a benchrest rifle. I regret letting it go. It did everything I needed from elk to woodchuck in a small compact cartridge. I've owned 3 30-06's . Two have gone down the road, the other was my father's only big game rifle so it's with me till my son's inherit it. My take , they are the same. And if I was to only own one of them it would be the '06 because of its ability to handle the heavy bullets for big bear(which I will almost assuredly never hunt). I have other rifles to handle the lighter work(260,swede, 6mm) and always have the old man's gun if I need more horsepower. But to be honest even though I'm a pretty big guy I don't really like heavy recoil, and after many kills on deer and some elk see no need. My 308 had a hogue overmolded stock and the recoil pad on the stock made the shock nearly non existent. If I were you I'd get a 308 to try something new, it's fun to experiment with new rifles and reloading. My gun cabinet has a revolving door on it for just that reason.
God bless,
MM
Tell me the odds of putting grease on the same pancake? I Know they are there, well ice and house slippers. -Kawi
I own both and use both. The 308 is 5 oz. lighter than my 06 which really doesn't matter. For Elk I use 165's in the 308 and 180's in the 06. Deer I use 150's in both. Pronghorn I use a 257 Wby. Flip a coin.
Expat, since you primarily shoot factory loads, I'd go 308.
Having owned a fair pile of each, I've found the 308 generally a bit more accurate, particularly with factory ammo. It also is loaded hotter than the 30-06, and will generally equal it.
Handloaded, I think the 30-06 handles 180 and 200 grain bullets better than the 308, but even a 180 at 2,630 from a 308 is nothing to sneeze at. Having killed a fair bit of the same game with both, I can't say I've ever seen any difference, and it would likely take several lifetimes to attempt to find any.
In identical rifles, loaded to their full potential, I find the 308 kicks noticeably less.
Reading between the lines, I think your gut is telling you to go 308...
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
I think either cartridge would be just fine. The 30-06 earned its reputation long ago, when loads for it were about like 308 loads today. As a rule, there’s about 100 fps difference between the 308 and the 30-06. That said, I've seen velocities with factory loads with the same bullet weight vary by as much 150 fps, so a fast 308 might outrun a slow 30-06. The 30-06 has a slight edge with bullets 180 grains and up, but 150-165-grain bullets are so good these days that you probably don’t need 180’s.
Factory ammo for both cartridges is superb, but the 30-06 tends to offer bit more choice if you have to buy what’s on the shelves in a specific store. You can get pretty much anything for either of them online.
With what you said about how you use this rifle, I’d upgrade to a better 30-06 barrel and glass bed the rifle, then spend some time chronographing loads and working up a drop chart.
Okie John
Last edited by okie john; 08/29/17.
Originally Posted by Brad
If Montana had a standing army, a 270 Win with Federal Blue Box 130's would be the standard issue.
I own a 30-06 but if I was going to buy another I would get a .308. A Win Model 70 Featherweight to be exact. I like the short action and medium weight as well as the classic good looks. .308 is plenty for the elk we have around here.
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
100 or so FPS across the board in favor of the 30-06. Not a difference in the field, only a numbers hawk worries about that.
Your issue is the rifle obviously. Since we are talking hunting rifles I can honestly say that if I took two of the same model, lets say it's a Ruger American, I would not think I would find any real difference in accuracy. Dang sure no difference that will be seen in the field.
The older I become the more I am convinced that the voice of honor in a man's heart is the voice of GOD.
Besides all the known 30-06 advantages, its eaier to load the 30-06 instead of fumbling with smaller cartridges and tiny actions.
Winner of the picking flyshit out of pepper award. Hunted with both (180 & 165s) can't see ANY difference.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Handloaded, I think the 30-06 handles 180 and 200 grain bullets better than the 308, but even a 180 at 2,630 from a 308 is nothing to sneeze at. Having killed a fair bit of the same game with both, I can't say I've ever seen any difference, and it would likely take several lifetimes to attempt to find any.
I think that about sums it up. I think the main thing the /06 does is provide a bit more on the front end with heavies and extend the range on the longer end. But, If I'm looking to extend my range, the /06 is not my first choice.
According to my shoulder, a light weight .308 kicks about as much as a 30-06 sporter. It seems a good decision is deciding if you want a new rifle, or if you want to rebarrel with a match grade custom barrel that doesn't foul as much as a factory barrel.
According to my shoulder, a light weight .308 kicks about as much as a 30-06 sporter. It seems a good decision is deciding if you want a new rifle, or if you want to rebarrel with a match grade custom barrel that doesn't foul as much as a factory barrel.
Pretty much. Regarding recoil, the calculator on Handloads.com show the following combos both having roughly 18lbs of recoil. So it's about a pound and a half of rifle weight to make recoil equal when both are shooting warm 165gr loads with 22-24" barrels.
7lb .308win (165gr at 2,700 with 45gr charge) 8.5lb 30-06 (165gr at 2,850 with 58gr charge)
I have two, .308s, that both shoot 150 Interlocks extremely well. I get over 2900 fps with them both. I recently inherited a Savage .30-06 and it shoots the same bullet right at 3000 fps and shoots 1/2 moa at 300 yards. I was going to re-barrel the '06, but it shoots so good, that I think it is staying as is.
I like the .308s real well, but there is no fly on the '06, either. Flip a coin.
Last edited by sbhooper; 08/29/17.
You did not "seen" anything, you "saw" it. A "creek" has water in it, a "crick" is what you get in your neck. Liberals with guns are nothing but hypocrites.
Besides all the known 30-06 advantages, its eaier to load the 30-06 instead of fumbling with smaller cartridges and tiny actions.
Yep, it's great for the velcro sneakers set.
I must qualify for velcro sneakers then. I liked and preferred the shorter action advantages in theory for quite a few years, but discovered the advantages of the slightly longer cartridges and action when fumbling to reload with fingers that have all the dexterity of frozen hot dogs. Mostly, it doesn't matter, but when it matters, it matters!
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
I do not intend to start a brawl. I love the .30-06 and have owned one since 1984. I'm considering buying a .308, so I don't have anything against it either.
The question remains, if buying a rifle today, is there any significant reason to choose one over the other?
I'm considering replacing my .30-06. It is an inconsistent performer and I'm a little tired of jacking around with it. It is a mid-'80s vintage rifle. The rifle is pretty much dedicated to elk hunting. I use my .243 for pretty much everything smaller. The intent is to move to one of the dependably accurate modern platforms. I primarily shoot factory ammo these days. My .30-06 elk load is a 150 grain mono.
My thought regarding the .308/.30-06 question is why not consider moving to a different, yet still readily available, elk cartridge when I get a new rifle?
.308 factory loads launch 165s at 2700-2800 so I have no concern about my ability to kill elk with a .308. The .308 is known as an inherently accurate cartridge, but is it significantly more accurate than the .30-06? I do I like printing small groups and hitting 10" gongs out to 550 yards.
I know the .308 recoils a bit less and rifles chambered for it are slightly shorter and lighter. I recognize that as a small advantage, but was never bothered by the length, weight, recoil or bolt throw of my .30-06. There is some .30-06 sunk cost as I have about 270 rounds of .30-06 ammo (some of which my current -06 does not shoot well) and reloading dies, though as I mentioned previously, I primarily shoot factory ammo these days.
Thanks in advance, Expat
......................................... Imo, your dilemma here is more emotional rather than paper ballistics. However, if you foresee using heavier 200/220 grain bullets, doing so favors the '06. Across the board, group accuracy from the bench may favor the 308 a bit but not by much. You also need to determine what your personal rifle preferences really are. If you prefer a shorter action and lighter rifle then go with the 308. But! If your heart really favors the '06 then you stay with it. Between these two, the game you hunt won't know the difference.
Seems I remember that being said about smokeless powder...
DF
DF you must be an OLD geezer!! With a good memory!
Yep, you got that right...
Another subject. When people talk about differences in recoil, seems to me that's more of a function of the rifle, how it fits, weight, etc. Now, if one is shooting 220's at max velocity out of an '06, that's different. But, with similar bullets, recoil can't be that much different, all other variables accounted for.
Now, see how I pivoted and diverted from that rather sensitive subject. Maybe I need to be in politics...
I choose between the 2 depending on the rifle. Long bolt actions and older style guns are those I like the 30-06 in. Newer models I like the 308. Semi autos (except the M1) lever actions and anything using a NATO length magazine
I reload my own ammo and I have found NO difference between the two with 150 and 165 grain bullets. The 06 is a bit faster with 180s, but honestly, probably not enough to worry about or may any difference.
To the OP ... since you think you've got deer covered with your .243 and you're looking at this .30 cal as strictly for elk, though I like the .308, I wouldn't step down from the '06. I'd either keep it, just rebarrel, or step up a little to .300 WSM or .300 Win Mag.
Tom
Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.
I got curious about velocity differences between the .308 Win. and 30-06 so one day with a few rifles went to the range, set up the Chrony and shot some groups and measured velocity.
Rifles for the test were a Winchester M70 Youth Ranger .308 in a Ramline stock and a J.C. Higgins M50 in 30-06. Rifles has 22" barrels. Ammo for both cartridges was Winchester 180 gr. Power Point. Velocity is the average for three shots.
The .308 ......2610 FPS
The 30-06....2630 FPS. So much for their advertised 2700 FPS.
Test #2 was the 30-06 in 22", 24" and 26" barrels.22" 2630 FPS 24" 2660 FPS and 26" 2690 FPS.
Rifle were the Higgins 50, Custom Mauser 24" and Ruger #1B 26".
One set of hand load work up for the 30-06 produce 2820 FPS from a Remington M700 BDL with 180 gr. Hornady SP Interlocks. I never could get much past factory level speeds from a .308 with my handloads. Naturally, YMMV.
I just thought I'd show the numbers as reached from my rifles. Paul B.
Our forefathers did not politely protest the British.They did not vote them out of office, nor did they impeach the king,march on the capitol or ask permission for their rights. ----------------They just shot them. MOLON LABE
To the OP ... since you think you've got deer covered with your .243 and you're looking at this .30 cal as strictly for elk, though I like the .308, I wouldn't step down from the '06. I'd either keep it, just rebarrel, or step up a little to .300 WSM or .300 Win Mag.
Tom
That makes sense...
An '06 with the right bullet is deadly on most stuff that won't stomp you or eat you, and could put the hurt on most of those critters, as well.
To the OP ... since you think you've got deer covered with your .243 and you're looking at this .30 cal as strictly for elk, though I like the .308, I wouldn't step down from the '06. I'd either keep it, just rebarrel, or step up a little to .300 WSM or .300 Win Mag.
Tom
Or, how about a .30 Gibbs? I bought one dirt cheap around 35 years ago, played with it for a couple minutes and sent it down the road. Fairly impressive improvement over the '06, probably as much oomph as can be squeezed out of an '06 case. Enough to really make a difference in the field? I didn't think so, so away it went. But, for the guy who's bored with his mundane '06 and is hankering for something new but can't afford a whole new gun, a chambering reamer and the knowledge to use it can be your ticket out of there. Today's powders may well be what's needed to breathe new life into that old wildcat.
An old curmudgeonly friend of mine back in the 70's turned his '06 into a .30 Gibbs and used to whack a few Newfoundland moose (meese?). He proclaimed it to be the perfect gun for that purpose, as well as a cure for dandruff, shingles, and hemorrhoids.
I think as we old farts shuffle off this mortal coil you will see less popularity for the '06. Or not, if the younger generations come to their senses and admit that it is probably the greatest all-around cartridge ever devised by mankind.
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz "Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
.... but discovered the advantages of the slightly longer cartridges and action when fumbling to reload with fingers that have all the dexterity of frozen hot dogs. Mostly, it doesn't matter, but when it matters, it matters!
Klik, I'm not there yet BUT I can tell it's coming. Separating papers, picking up a dime on linoleum etc.
I think you made a good point for us ELDER gunners.
Another subject. When people talk about differences in recoil, seems to me that's more of a[/b] function of the rifle, how it fits, weight,[b] etc...DF
Bingo ! There's a lot of truth in that. Some don't give credit for those differences.
Don't be a wuss. Stick with the .30-06. You'll gain nothing by switching to that short, squatty, dumpy little cartridge except perhaps an inferiority complex and a notice to turn in your man card. Next thing you know you'll be craving quiche and driving a Subaru.
Don't be a wuss. Stick with the .30-06. You'll gain nothing by switching to that short, squatty, dumpy little cartridge except perhaps an inferiority complex and a notice to turn in your man card. Next thing you know you'll be craving quiche and driving a Subaru.
You are talking about a cartridge birthed by the US Army and that was right arm of the free world for decades in the M-14 and the FN/FAL. . I don't think any man cards will be needing turned in.
You are talking about a cartridge birthed by the US Army and that was right arm of the free world for decades in the M-14 and the FN/FAL. . I don't think any man cards will be needing turned in.
Well...why did the 223 supplant the 308 ?
Not much pertaining to ballistics ! ! Not everything the Army does is germain to hunting.
You are talking about a cartridge birthed by the US Army and that was right arm of the free world for decades in the M-14 and the FN/FAL. . I don't think any man cards will be needing turned in.
Well...why did the 223 supplant the 308 ?
Not much pertaining to ballistics ! ! Not everything the Army does is germain to hunting.
Jerry
The 7.62 is still in use by everyone. We ran a lot of 7.62's through our Medium Machine Guns and quite a lot from the SCARS. The 7.62 is alive and well within the US Military.
.... but discovered the advantages of the slightly longer cartridges and action when fumbling to reload with fingers that have all the dexterity of frozen hot dogs. Mostly, it doesn't matter, but when it matters, it matters!
Klik, I'm not there yet BUT I can tell it's coming. Separating papers, picking up a dime on linoleum etc.
I think you made a good point for us ELDER gunners.
Jerry
It's not only arthritic problems either. -20º F has a way of doing the same to anyone, not a fun scenario when the object might be a departing wolf or something.
I still like the short action rifles, but know that fast reloading favors a bigger opening for the top stuffers.
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
I have yet to weigh a short and long action of the same make/design and find more than a 4-ounce difference. This includes NULA's, Remington 700's, Savages, and post-'64 Winchester Model 70's. This is 1/4 pound, which is often less than wood stocks vary in weight. The reason some (not all) .308's weigh considerably less than .30-06 is due to other factors than action length.
If you compare different rifles, yeah, some .308's kick more than some .30-06's. In the same model of rifle the .308 will recoil noticeably lighter, despite weighing 1/4 pound less.
If somebody wants to use 200-220 grain bullets they're probably better off with the .30-06, but there's very little reason to for most big game hunting. Have seen plenty of big game animals up to "elk size" killed with the .308, and with today's 150-180 grain bullets there's no discernible difference. This is partly because the .308 beats the original muzzle velocities of the .30-06--velocities that resulted in the .30-06's great reputation on big game, back when iron sights were the norm.
At one point a number of years ago I owned six .30-06's, but finally realized I mostly hunted with one, the NULA I've used on more big game than any of my other rifles over the past 20 years. It's probably the most accurate .30-06 sporter I've ever shot, but have owned several .308's that were more accurate--and cost far less. Based on considerable time with Melvin Forbes, I'd guess he'd agree that on average .308's shoot more accurately than his .30-06's.
Part of accuracy, however, is how easy it is to get certain cartridges to shoot well. This is a controversial subject, because some shooters don't believe in "inherent accuracy." Others do. I've written more than one article about this subject, but David Tubb says the .308 is among the 3-4 cartridges easiest to get to shoot very accurately.
Right now my only .30-06 is the NULA. It's not only accurate but a great travel rifle, partly because ammunition that works well on big game can be bought anywhere ammo can be purchased. Due to the superb synthetic stock, and titanium nitride metal coating, it's also weather-proof.
But I also own several .308's, and hunt with them more and more, because they do the same things on 99% of the world's big game without kicking as hard. Despite my semi-advanced age I'm still not particularly recoil sensitive, but don't see any reason to get kicked harder if there's no reason.
The heaviest of my .308's is a pre-'64 Model 70 Winchester Featherweight weighing 7-1/2 pounds with scope, but my favorite is my Merkel single-shot, which despite its fancy walnut, weighs exactly the same as my NULA .30-06. In neither the Model 70 or Merkel rifle is "action length" a factor. Instead, they just shoot well and kick less than the NULA. I won't ever sell the NULA, and will still pick it for a lot of hunting, but the instances it's chambering would work noticeably better than any of the .308's would be very rare indeed.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Both are great. I own a few .308s and a few more .30-06s and shoot them when I have time. But, when it's time for serious hunting, I grab a .300 Mag. I have a lot fewer .300s than .308/.30-06 rifles because my .300s are serious hunting rifles. I can't tell that the increase in recoil affects my shooting because they are all three in a similar category to me and I don't notice a difference in shooting style until .338 and up. Regarding a choice between the two, I would go .30-06 over .308, though superstitiously the .30-06 has always seemed unlucky to me. All that is me and you may be different so make your choice and roll with it. There is not a bad option here.
Edit to add, I just realized which forum this is and am not a gunwriter. My mistake.
Mule Deer always lays it out there so well and does so without hurling childish insults at cartridges and the people who use them. Acting like an adult isn't for everyone on here obviously though.
Mule Deer always lays it out there so well and does so without hurling childish insults at cartridges and the people who use them. Acting like an adult isn't for everyone on here obviously though.
Lighten up Francis. Just can't joke around on here without somebody getting their panties all in a wad . Sheesh.
The 7.62 is still in use by everyone. We ran a lot of 7.62's through our Medium Machine Guns and quite a lot from the SCARS. The 7.62 is alive and well within the US Military.
Thanks S.
I was referring to the individual rifles BUT I'm glad they're using the 30 cal more than I knew. Currently I don't know anyone personally in the military.
I've also owned a pre-'64 Featherweight .30-06, and shot it considerably with various loads. With the same-weight scope, in the same Weaver mounts, it weighed exactly the same as my .308 Featherweight, and to me it kicked noticeably more.
Due to the laws of physics, rifles that use more powder to drive bullets of the same weight to higher velocities generate more recoil. But this is the Campfire, where personal opinions often count more than physical reality, so thanks for your opinion.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
If the OP is generally tired of his under-performing 30-06, then its a good time to consider something else like the .308Win.. There is a wide variety of great 150 gr. and 165 gr. factory loads he can choose from for his next elk hunt. Just consider the platform you desire and the dollar value you want to stay under. May be a great time to try a RAR too.
Last edited by bigwhoop; 08/29/17.
My home is the "sanctuary residence" for my firearms.
I've also owned a pre-'64 Featherweight .30-06, and shot it considerably with various loads. With the same-weight scope, in the same Weaver mounts, it weighed exactly the same as my .308 Featherweight, and to me it kicked noticeably more.
Yeah well, like I said before I personally could never tell the difference in like rifles. About all I could tell is that both kicked alot less than my 12 gauge Ithaca 37 Deerslayer with slugs and more than my .243. The 270, .308 and .30-06 all feel about the same to me. Guess I just ain't sensitive enough.
Mike, I'm sure you understand but for those that don't.
I'm not a 308 hater. It's not my cartridge of choice. I've had 1 but that was many moons ago. I'm a 270 or 7 mm RM guy. Between the 06 and 308 Win, I prefer the 06. I like the feel and balance of LA and as a handloader IMO the 06 does better w/180s and heavier bullets.
I have been pulling Mike's chain and he knew that. A friendly gouge so to speak.
Beside you 308 guys leave more 06 brass for me ! grin
But my wife started getting recoil headaches a few years ago. Before then she shot a couple of very light .30-06's and an even lighter .270 ,along with light 12 gauges using magnum ammo, without any problem. (I might also mention that she had no trouble shooting a .416 Remington Magnum accurately, though she had no reason to hunt with one.) After the recoil headaches started, she had to start using lighter-recoiling cartridges. Among them was the .308 with 150-grain bullets at about 2800 fps, with which she's killed a bunch of big game up to 800 pounds.
More recently she had to drop down a little more, and her most recent elk dropped quickly to a 100-grain Barnes TSX from a .257 Roberts. She's also used 20-gauge shotguns to kill plenty of Canada geese and wild turkeys, with no problems, and her very light 28-gauge double on a bunch of wild pheasants.
People react differently to recoil. You may not believe that, but like recoil physics, it's reality.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Oh I believe it. I know by calculation the .308 recoils a little less. It's just that within the range of say 15-22 ft lbs. I can't PERSONALLY tell the difference. I frequently shoot with my brothers and sons and they also agree that they can't tell enough difference between .308, .30-06 and .270 to say so.
Which is always what it boils down to. Most responses on the Campfire are PERSONAL, because 99% of humanity is incapable of accepting (let alone learning from) that other people experience life differently.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
I've also owned a pre-'64 Featherweight .30-06, and shot it considerably with various loads. With the same-weight scope, in the same Weaver mounts, it weighed exactly the same as my .308 Featherweight, and TO ME it kicked noticeably more.
Yep, " to me" sounds personal. Your personal experience is no more valid than mine.
The 7.62 is still in use by everyone. We ran a lot of 7.62's through our Medium Machine Guns and quite a lot from the SCARS. The 7.62 is alive and well within the US Military.
Thanks S.
I was referring to the individual rifles BUT I'm glad they're using the 30 cal more than I knew. Currently I don't know anyone personally in the military.
Thnx Again
Jerry
My son has been trained on the SAW in 7.62 NATO. I believe it is the Mk 48. He said it is an awesome weapon.
I spend considerable time observing hundreds of other people shooting, not just at the range but in the field. Which is exactly why I can make observations about how other people react to recoil, and other factors, not just my own reactions.
I've spent over 40 years being a professional journalist, which means observing and analyzing not just my personal experiences, but those of others. Your posts are always about your own experiences. This doesn't mean they're invalid, but does mean they're only valid to one person among the over 7 billion humans on earth.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Expat, since you primarily shoot factory loads, I'd go 308.
Having owned a fair pile of each, I've found the 308 generally a bit more accurate, particularly with factory ammo. It also is loaded hotter than the 30-06, and will generally equal it.
Handloaded, I think the 30-06 handles 180 and 200 grain bullets better than the 308, but even a 180 at 2,630 from a 308 is nothing to sneeze at. Having killed a fair bit of the same game with both, I can't say I've ever seen any difference, and it would likely take several lifetimes to attempt to find any.
In identical rifles, loaded to their full potential, I find the 308 kicks noticeably less.
Reading between the lines, I think your gut is telling you to go 308...
My current .30-06 elk load features a 150 grain bullet. The .308 launches 150s at 2800-2900 and 165s at 2700-2800. I keep thinking, "What can't I do to an elk with a Partition or Accubond at those speeds?"
"There are no dangerous weapons. There are only dangerous men." - Robert Heinlein
I have yet to weigh a short and long action of the same make/design and find more than a 4-ounce difference. This includes NULA's, Remington 700's, Savages, and post-'64 Winchester Model 70's. This is 1/4 pound, which is often less than wood stocks vary in weight. The reason some (not all) .308's weigh considerably less than .30-06 is due to other factors than action length.
If you compare different rifles, yeah, some .308's kick more than some .30-06's. In the same model of rifle the .308 will recoil noticeably lighter, despite weighing 1/4 pound less.
If somebody wants to use 200-220 grain bullets they're probably better off with the .30-06, but there's very little reason to for most big game hunting. Have seen plenty of big game animals up to "elk size" killed with the .308, and with today's 150-180 grain bullets there's no discernible difference. This is partly because the .308 beats the original muzzle velocities of the .30-06--velocities that resulted in the .30-06's great reputation on big game, back when iron sights were the norm.
At one point a number of years ago I owned six .30-06's, but finally realized I mostly hunted with one, the NULA I've used on more big game than any of my other rifles over the past 20 years. It's probably the most accurate .30-06 sporter I've ever shot, but have owned several .308's that were more accurate--and cost far less. Based on considerable time with Melvin Forbes, I'd guess he'd agree that on average .308's shoot more accurately than his .30-06's.
Part of accuracy, however, is how easy it is to get certain cartridges to shoot well. This is a controversial subject, because some shooters don't believe in "inherent accuracy." Others do. I've written more than one article about this subject, but David Tubb says the .308 is among the 3-4 cartridges easiest to get to shoot very accurately.
Right now my only .30-06 is the NULA. It's not only accurate but a great travel rifle, partly because ammunition that works well on big game can be bought anywhere ammo can be purchased. Due to the superb synthetic stock, and titanium nitride metal coating, it's also weather-proof.
But I also own several .308's, and hunt with them more and more, because they do the same things on 99% of the world's big game without kicking as hard. Despite my semi-advanced age I'm still not particularly recoil sensitive, but don't see any reason to get kicked harder if there's no reason.
The heaviest of my .308's is a pre-'64 Model 70 Winchester Featherweight weighing 7-1/2 pounds with scope, but my favorite is my Merkel single-shot, which despite its fancy walnut, weighs exactly the same as my NULA .30-06. In neither the Model 70 or Merkel rifle is "action length" a factor. Instead, they just shoot well and kick less than the NULA. I won't ever sell the NULA, and will still pick it for a lot of hunting, but the instances it's chambering would work noticeably better than any of the .308's would be very rare indeed.
Many thanks. I'm comfortable with .308 performance. One thing that appeals to me about the .308 is the number of posters that mention its inherent accuracy. I think part of this is because my .30-06's accuracy is inconsistent. I'm drawn to the potential for a consistently higher level of accuracy.
"There are no dangerous weapons. There are only dangerous men." - Robert Heinlein
Expat, I shoot 165's exclusively in my 308's. This past year I shot a dandy 6pt bull elk in the front leg knuckle with a 165 Hdy BTSP. You could hear the "crack" when the bullet hit that very large bone. The bull dropped at the shot. The Hornady completely broke the knuckle and penetrated the chest cavity. Pretty impressive all around.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
I have yet to weigh a short and long action of the same make/design and find more than a 4-ounce difference. This includes NULA's, Remington 700's, Savages, and post-'64 Winchester Model 70's. This is 1/4 pound, which is often less than wood stocks vary in weight. The reason some (not all) .308's weigh considerably less than .30-06 is due to other factors than action length.
If you compare different rifles, yeah, some .308's kick more than some .30-06's. In the same model of rifle the .308 will recoil noticeably lighter, despite weighing 1/4 pound less.
If somebody wants to use 200-220 grain bullets they're probably better off with the .30-06, but there's very little reason to for most big game hunting. Have seen plenty of big game animals up to "elk size" killed with the .308, and with today's 150-180 grain bullets there's no discernible difference. This is partly because the .308 beats the original muzzle velocities of the .30-06--velocities that resulted in the .30-06's great reputation on big game, back when iron sights were the norm.
At one point a number of years ago I owned six .30-06's, but finally realized I mostly hunted with one, the NULA I've used on more big game than any of my other rifles over the past 20 years. It's probably the most accurate .30-06 sporter I've ever shot, but have owned several .308's that were more accurate--and cost far less. Based on considerable time with Melvin Forbes, I'd guess he'd agree that on average .308's shoot more accurately than his .30-06's.
Part of accuracy, however, is how easy it is to get certain cartridges to shoot well. This is a controversial subject, because some shooters don't believe in "inherent accuracy." Others do. I've written more than one article about this subject, but David Tubb says the .308 is among the 3-4 cartridges easiest to get to shoot very accurately.
Right now my only .30-06 is the NULA. It's not only accurate but a great travel rifle, partly because ammunition that works well on big game can be bought anywhere ammo can be purchased. Due to the superb synthetic stock, and titanium nitride metal coating, it's also weather-proof.
But I also own several .308's, and hunt with them more and more, because they do the same things on 99% of the world's big game without kicking as hard. Despite my semi-advanced age I'm still not particularly recoil sensitive, but don't see any reason to get kicked harder if there's no reason.
The heaviest of my .308's is a pre-'64 Model 70 Winchester Featherweight weighing 7-1/2 pounds with scope, but my favorite is my Merkel single-shot, which despite its fancy walnut, weighs exactly the same as my NULA .30-06. In neither the Model 70 or Merkel rifle is "action length" a factor. Instead, they just shoot well and kick less than the NULA. I won't ever sell the NULA, and will still pick it for a lot of hunting, but the instances it's chambering would work noticeably better than any of the .308's would be very rare indeed.
Many thanks. I'm comfortable with .308 performance. One thing that appeals to me about the .308 is the number of posters that mention its inherent accuracy. I think part of this is because my .30-06's accuracy is inconsistent. I'm drawn to the potential for a consistently higher level of accuracy.
I have never had a 30-06 that did not shoot well...nor a 308.
As far as perceived recoil goes...some of that is a function of stock design. I've owned (5) 30-06s. Felt recoil was not the same for all of them. My first was a 70s model 700 BDL. The recoil of that rifle was abusive, so much so that I rarely shot it. I kept it for sentimental reasons...and because it was a 70s model Remington (build quality/beautiful rifle). My second 06 was a Savage (110?) that I bought on clearance at Wal Mart. Recoil was completely different. It changed my mind about the 06. My current 06 is a 700 stainless SPS. It is a sweet shooter. It will shoot my handloads consistently under 1 MOA.
I cannot speak to inherent accuracy. I do know that my 06 will hold tighter 5 shot groups out to 250 yards than my two heavy barreled 308s. Maybe it was just the luck of the draw.
I know my .308 kicks way less than my three 30-06 Husqvarna's did or my 760 Carbine. Now I have spent some range time with a Browning A Bolt Medallion .30-06 that was as mild as my T/C 308.
As far as perceived recoil goes...some of that is a function of stock design.
Yes. Which is why I said a page back, "In identical rifles, loaded to their full potential, I find the 308 kicks noticeably less."
The quickest way to find this is true is shoot the essentially identical Kimber 84M Montana 308 side-by-side with a Kimber 84L MT 30-06 (as I have done).
Even though the 30-06 MT weigh's 4oz's more, I'd defy anyone on this thread that says they can't tell the difference between the two to NOT feel the difference between the two.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
My current .30-06 elk load features a 150 grain bullet. The .308 launches 150s at 2800-2900 and 165s at 2700-2800. I keep thinking, "What can't I do to an elk with a Partition or Accubond at those speeds?"
I'm pretty sure the elk will be just as dead as with any other cartridge pushing the bullet.
I have two .30/06s, but really I could not see any reason anymore to worry if they were .308s instead. I've shot a lot of .308 too.
I really think any differences between them aren't worth worrying about, at least for my own purposes. I accept that the .30/06 is better adapted to heavier bullets, but I only use 150 gn and 185 gn bullets - and not that many of the latter either. I have tried 220 grainers on some big pigs and couldn't see that they offered an advantage over the 150s I usually use. A couple of my mates tried heavier bullets, up to Woodleigh's 240 gn, on buffalo and feral bulls, but they weren't wildly impressed either. I have bigger rifles for big stuff anyway.
For my use, a .308 would make no difference. No real advantage either way really. Sure, a .308 could be made up in a short action, and save 1/2" of length and maybe a tiny bit of weight, assuming we're talking about a repeater, but the difference either way is pretty trivial. My little Browning Stainless .30/06 is light enough, though I was sorely tempted by a mate's Remington 700 Ti that I took out to shoot a bunch of pigs one time. I really don't see any practical difference in killing power or trajectory, and as far as accuracy goes I've shot some exceptionally accurate examples of both. I also don't find the .30/06's recoil an issue, though it is at about this level that I do start to prefer a recoil pad. I can find a greater difference in relative recoil between .308 and .30/06 just by changing propellant, and if recoil was a bother it isn't hard to load or even buy loads with a bit less.
Ultimately if I was to be buying a new rifle it would be a matter of what was available, between these two, rather than insisting on one of these calibres over the other. I just don't think the differences between them are enough to matter.
If I didn't reload I would go with the 308. I would shoot mostly the 147 gr FMJ stuff. I would shoot that off a bench, several groups, to see what the accuracy potential of that ammo is, and it really doesn't matter exactly what it is. Then I would shoot positions using that accuracy potential as a standard. Then for hunting I would simply re-zero for that ammo.
Your ability to handle that rifle in the field in different positions, using it smoothly and instinctively, mean a great deal more than the actual ability to shoot tiny groups. I've seen too many guys fumble in the field because they never got off the damn bench.
Last edited by Armednfree; 08/30/17.
The older I become the more I am convinced that the voice of honor in a man's heart is the voice of GOD.
As far as perceived recoil goes...some of that is a function of stock design.
Yes. Which is why I said a page back, "In identical rifles, loaded to their full potential, I find the 308 kicks noticeably less."
The quickest way to find this is true is shoot the essentially identical Kimber 84M Montana 308 side-by-side with a Kimber 84L MT 30-06 (as I have done).
Even though the 30-06 MT weigh's 4oz's more, I'd defy anyone on this thread that says they can't tell the difference between the two to NOT feel the difference between the two.
This. I've been shooting a Tikka T3 in 308 side by side with a Tikka T3x in 30-06. The T3x has a slightly better recoil pad, but with loads that push a 147-grain bullet at 2,800 fps in both rifles (CMP ammo in the 30-06 and and milspec in the 308), the difference is definitely there.
I've begun to think of the 308 as the Recoilless Rifle.
Okie John
Originally Posted by Brad
If Montana had a standing army, a 270 Win with Federal Blue Box 130's would be the standard issue.
I do not intend to start a brawl. I love the .30-06 and have owned one since 1984. I'm considering buying a .308, so I don't have anything against it either.
The question remains, if buying a rifle today, is there any significant reason to choose one over the other?
I'm considering replacing my .30-06. It is an inconsistent performer and I'm a little tired of jacking around with it. It is a mid-'80s vintage rifle. The rifle is pretty much dedicated to elk hunting. I use my .243 for pretty much everything smaller. The intent is to move to one of the dependably accurate modern platforms. I primarily shoot factory ammo these days. My .30-06 elk load is a 150 grain mono.
My thought regarding the .308/.30-06 question is why not consider moving to a different, yet still readily available, elk cartridge when I get a new rifle?
.308 factory loads launch 165s at 2700-2800 so I have no concern about my ability to kill elk with a .308. The .308 is known as an inherently accurate cartridge, but is it significantly more accurate than the .30-06? I do I like printing small groups and hitting 10" gongs out to 550 yards.
I know the .308 recoils a bit less and rifles chambered for it are slightly shorter and lighter. I recognize that as a small advantage, but was never bothered by the length, weight, recoil or bolt throw of my .30-06. There is some .30-06 sunk cost as I have about 270 rounds of .30-06 ammo (some of which my current -06 does not shoot well) and reloading dies, though as I mentioned previously, I primarily shoot factory ammo these days.
Thanks in advance, Expat
The 308 allows for a somewhat shorter, lighter rifle. That's important to some, but you've already said it's not important to you. (I'd try handling a light short action 308 before you make your mind up on this.)
The 308 is potentially more accurate, but you'd only see the difference in a full blown target rifle. Important to benchresters, not important to you.
The 30-06 handles heavy (over 180 grain) bullets better. Again, not important to you. "My .30-06 elk load is a 150 grain mono".
Given that every advantage I can think of for the 308 is not important to you and that you already have 30-06 dies and ammo, I'd just buy a better 30-06.
See if you can find a nice J.C. Higgins Model 50 or 51. That will solve your accuracy issues.
Might be more cost effective to find a good "bullet" that his current 06 shoots well than "buying another 06" hopping that it will shoot the bullet he currently uses well.
Many discuss the 308 with lighter bullets. But, the penetration of a 200 grain bullet in the 308 can be impressive.
There was no greater freedom than when I would leave Holiday Park Fish Camp heading my airboat west toward the Big Cypress. Fuel for 4 days, a good machete, an ice chest. No phone, no radio. Just God and me and the Everglades.
The 308 allows for a somewhat shorter, lighter rifle. That's important to some, but you've already said it's not important to you. (I'd try handling a light short action 308 before you make your mind up on this.)
I find that short action rifles also tend to balance better. If you think about it, the traditional balance point is the front action screw. Long-action rifles have more weight aft of that point, so they tend to feel a little lighter in the muzzle than a short-action rifle of the same model when all other factors are equal.
Okie John
Originally Posted by Brad
If Montana had a standing army, a 270 Win with Federal Blue Box 130's would be the standard issue.
It's good to know that there are still people who can detect sarcasm!
Hey, you can never be sure on here. I've seen some of the stupidest stuff ever posted on this forum in complete seriousness (ever read a Savage_99 post?) so if you don't use a sarcasm smiley I commonly take you serious unless I know you.
A 180 at 2,600 is all I need or ever will need................
Yes, that will do rather nicely, for most game. No doubt about it.
I've hunted a lot with the 30-06, but also appreciate the 308 Win. It's a sweet shooting cartridge. Literally wore out a few 308 Win barrels. I like both cartridges.
For years I reloaded the 30-06 with H4350 and 180 Interlocks. When I got a chronograph I learned my standby load generated 2,600 fps. It didn't bother me any. That load didn't seem underpowered either.
The 7.62 is still in use by everyone. We ran a lot of 7.62's through our Medium Machine Guns and quite a lot from the SCARS. The 7.62 is alive and well within the US Military.
Thanks S.
I was referring to the individual rifles BUT I'm glad they're using the 30 cal more than I knew. Currently I don't know anyone personally in the military.
Thnx Again
Jerry
It wasn't meant as a jab but once we started heavy in Afghanistan the 7.62 was a much better mousetrap at the distances we were engaging in. The rifles themselves didn't change much either being on the SCAR platform.
Handloaded, I think the 30-06 handles 180 and 200 grain bullets better than the 308, but even a 180 at 2,630 from a 308 is nothing to sneeze at...
Brad comes close to being our 308 expert and he says the 06 handles the 180s better.
Jerry
Yes, the 30-06 handles 180's "better" than the 308 (i.e., 150 fps faster).
BUT, a 300 WSM handles 180's "better" than a 30-06 (i.e., 150 fps faster).
And so on into pointlessness.
The larger point in CONTEXT is/was 2,630 (or whatever) fps is "plenty" with a 180. I defy anyone to show that somehow an additional 150 fps will make a meaningful difference at "normal" hunting ranges. As long as a bullet has enough velocity to open, it will work just fine.
*PS* I am no "expert", despite having taken nearly equal amounts of game with both the 30-06 and 308. And unlike some who seem unable to not have an opinion about everything and anything, I try to limit my comments to things I have personal experience with, and sit back quietly and learn from others in areas I have no experience. It's a practice that has served me well in life.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
It wasn't meant as a jab but once we started heavy in Afghanistan the 7.62 was a much better mousetrap at the distances we were engaging in. The rifles themselves didn't change much either being on the SCAR platform.
I didn't take it as a jab. I know why they went 5.56 but I always thot the 7.62 was the better mousetrap. No problem S.
The whole "but the 30/06 handles heavy slugs better" argument is moot to me unless one is going to hunt in Grizzly country. And then frankly a heavier 180-200g Partition bullet load in an '06 would be a little more comforting.
Me? I'm hunting in CO this year with my RAR .308 this over my '06..
Its a full pound lighter and more accurate. And , I shoot it well.
And 155g Scenars at 2,850FPS will do anything I need done to an Elk inside 500 yards if I steer the rifle correctly.
I started out with the .308 so I've never seen a reason to get a 30-06 and if I'm going to tote a rifle built on a full size action I'd opt for either the .300 or .338 win mag. That said, if I'd started out with the -06 I'd see no reason to get a .308.
Fetish......... Reason enough. Many here will never own a particular cartridge simply because it has no appeal. No excuse it needed.
For me, I like the 7x57 and have had once since the Winchester Featherweight was introduced in 1981. That crosses off the similar performing .308 as a point of interest, even though I have tested then, loaded for them and had hunting buddies who use them. The .308 is every bit as good and competent as others have reported.
The .30/06 was a long avoided reality for me. I was exposed to it in the 70's but because I was using magnums, it held no interest for me until I reviewed one years later and saw how well it performed in the field. Went to the store and lined up all the Featherweights on the counter and picked the one with the smoothest bolt and best wood.
The golden test for .30/06's was the 130gn Speer which we called a "cave point", over 58 grains of AR 2208 which is today's Varget. The velocity is around 3300fps in a 22 inch barrel and the best rifles group 5 rounds under an inch. Mine did that easily.
After bedding and trigger work I shot many 5 shot groups with Sierra 150's that hovered around a half inch. The rifle still does around .5 MOA for 3 rounds with Partitions often touching, so for me, the .30/06, at lest this one, could never be replaced by a .308. After saying that, I also like the heavy bullets in .308 caliber and my reloading shelves hold 200gn Barnes TTSX,and Partitions as well as 220gn Partitions and Woodleigh Weldcores.
Your choice will be right for you too. John
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
I think on game performance will be indistinguishable if shot placement is proper.
A true and good way to end this discussion.
This.
But nobody here really wants clarity, so I’ll add chronograph data comparing fresh WW PowerPoint factory ammo in a 22.7” Tikka T3 in 308 and a 24” FN Mauser in 30-06. • 308/150 velocity was 2,782 fps in the Tikka. • 308/180 velocity was 2,510 fps in the Tikka. • 30-06/150 velocity was 2,911 fps in the FN Mauser, or 129 fps faster than the 308. • 30-06/180 velocity was 2,734 fps in the FN Mauser, or 224 fps faster than the 308.
Folks say that the difference between the 308 and the 30-06 is ~150 fps. I’ve tested nine common 150-grain 308 factory loads this year. Velocities range from 2,708 to 2,855 in one rifle, so at least with 150-grain ammo, you can gain or lose about as much speed by switching loads as you could by switching to a hypothetical 30-06. Not sure on 308/180’s—I need to test more of them.
In other news, the Mauser gets 2,610 fps with Federal’s cheapo 30-06/180, but 2,734 fps with 180 PowerPoints, so again you could gain (or lose) about as much speed (114 fps) by changing loads as by changing cartridges.
If you go from a slow 308 rifle/load to a fast 30-06 rifle/load, then the 224 fps difference might merit a longer, heavier rifle. But without testing both rifles with several loads, you could easily go from a fast 308 rifle/load to a slow 30-06 rifle/load. Plus you’d still have to test a bunch of ammo and keep a bunch of notes to know what each rifle does with each load.
Probably best to focus on shot placement.
Okie John
Originally Posted by Brad
If Montana had a standing army, a 270 Win with Federal Blue Box 130's would be the standard issue.
Never owned an -06 and probably never will this late in the game but I've never felt the need to justify the larger offering. The 308 aka 7.62 is close to heart for many reasons, I've witnessed its devastation on the battlefield and its never failed me in 40 years of hunting..The -06 is a classic,will always be a favorite but never was a blip on my radar.
You better be afraid of a ghost!!
"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops
But nobody here really wants clarity, so I’ll add chronograph data comparing fresh WW PowerPoint factory ammo in a 22.7” Tikka T3 in 308 and a 24” FN Mauser in 30-06. • 308/150 velocity was 2,782 fps in the Tikka. • 308/180 velocity was 2,510 fps in the Tikka. • 30-06/150 velocity was 2,911 fps in the FN Mauser, or 129 fps faster than the 308. • 30-06/180 velocity was 2,734 fps in the FN Mauser, or 224 fps faster than the 308.
Okie John
Thnx Okie.
First, I'm NOT cherry picking your post. ALL of it needs to be considered. Very good points about AMMO and INDIVIDUAL rifles.
It 'shows to go' you, there is no hard and fast rule !
Mighty sensitive on the issue. Perhaps feeling a bit inadequate because all you've got is a .308 ? Your whine azz attitude isn't going to help and is rather unbecoming. Perhaps a testosterone shot or two is in order.
Since you stated you love the 30-06, mainly used for elk, don't mind the little extra recoil or slightly longer bolt throw plus have sunk cost in the 30-06, why don't you keep it and rebarrel it with one of your choosing? By time you buy a 308win rifle, plus scope, mounts/base, etc you'll could be $$$ ahead just putting new barrel on your beloved 30-06. Just a thought.
Now if just WANT to buy a 308win, then no excuse or justification needed. Buy the 308win rifle that appeals to you.
I think on game performance will be indistinguishable if shot placement is proper.
A true and good way to end this discussion.
This.
But nobody here really wants clarity, so I’ll add chronograph data comparing fresh WW PowerPoint factory ammo in a 22.7” Tikka T3 in 308 and a 24” FN Mauser in 30-06. • 308/150 velocity was 2,782 fps in the Tikka. • 308/180 velocity was 2,510 fps in the Tikka. • 30-06/150 velocity was 2,911 fps in the FN Mauser, or 129 fps faster than the 308. • 30-06/180 velocity was 2,734 fps in the FN Mauser, or 224 fps faster than the 308.
Folks say that the difference between the 308 and the 30-06 is ~150 fps. I’ve tested nine common 150-grain 308 factory loads this year. Velocities range from 2,708 to 2,855 in one rifle, so at least with 150-grain ammo, you can gain or lose about as much speed by switching loads as you could by switching to a hypothetical 30-06. Not sure on 308/180’s—I need to test more of them.
In other news, the Mauser gets 2,610 fps with Federal’s cheapo 30-06/180, but 2,734 fps with 180 PowerPoints, so again you could gain (or lose) about as much speed (114 fps) by changing loads as by changing cartridges.
If you go from a slow 308 rifle/load to a fast 30-06 rifle/load, then the 224 fps difference might merit a longer, heavier rifle. But without testing both rifles with several loads, you could easily go from a fast 308 rifle/load to a slow 30-06 rifle/load. Plus you’d still have to test a bunch of ammo and keep a bunch of notes to know what each rifle does with each load.
Probably best to focus on shot placement.
Okie John
Yep. My RAR .308 launches 150 Hornadys at 2924 fps. My '06 launches them right at 3000 fps. A blazing 76 fps difference.
You did not "seen" anything, you "saw" it. A "creek" has water in it, a "crick" is what you get in your neck. Liberals with guns are nothing but hypocrites.
I think on game performance will be indistinguishable if shot placement is proper.
A true and good way to end this discussion.
This.
But nobody here really wants clarity, so I’ll add chronograph data comparing fresh WW PowerPoint factory ammo in a 22.7” Tikka T3 in 308 and a 24” FN Mauser in 30-06. • 308/150 velocity was 2,782 fps in the Tikka. • 308/180 velocity was 2,510 fps in the Tikka. • 30-06/150 velocity was 2,911 fps in the FN Mauser, or 129 fps faster than the 308. • 30-06/180 velocity was 2,734 fps in the FN Mauser, or 224 fps faster than the 308.
Folks say that the difference between the 308 and the 30-06 is ~150 fps. I’ve tested nine common 150-grain 308 factory loads this year. Velocities range from 2,708 to 2,855 in one rifle, so at least with 150-grain ammo, you can gain or lose about as much speed by switching loads as you could by switching to a hypothetical 30-06. Not sure on 308/180’s—I need to test more of them.
In other news, the Mauser gets 2,610 fps with Federal’s cheapo 30-06/180, but 2,734 fps with 180 PowerPoints, so again you could gain (or lose) about as much speed (114 fps) by changing loads as by changing cartridges.
If you go from a slow 308 rifle/load to a fast 30-06 rifle/load, then the 224 fps difference might merit a longer, heavier rifle. But without testing both rifles with several loads, you could easily go from a fast 308 rifle/load to a slow 30-06 rifle/load. Plus you’d still have to test a bunch of ammo and keep a bunch of notes to know what each rifle does with each load.
Probably best to focus on shot placement.
Okie John
Excellent info Okie John!
Personally due to years of use with the .308 and having a lot of familiarity with making wind calls with it, I tend to grab it most often.
That said, if I was going to hunt Mule Deer, Elk, or Bear at what would be considered "typical" ranges, I would not hesitate to grab either. There is really so little difference when it comes to actual terminal ballistics (from my observations) that I would spend more time contemplating other more important matters, such as if I should stick an apple or an orange in my jacket pocket, and Snickers or M&Ms for a mid-morning treat.
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL.
The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world.
For what it’s worth: • A 180-grain Nolser Partition at 2,750 fps zeroed at 200 yards is -8.4 at 300, and -15.3 at 350. Max ord is 1.9” from 100-130 yards. • A 180-grain Nolser Partition at 2,600 fps zeroed at 200 yards is -9.2 at 300, and -16.6 at 350. Max ord is 2.3” from 110-120 yards. • A 180-grain Nolser Partition at 2,750 fps and zeroed at 230 (to keep max ord under 3”) is -5.8” at 300 and -12.1” at 350. Max ord is 2.9” from 120-130 yards. • A 180-grain Nolser Partition at 2,600 fps and zeroed at 215 (to keep max ord under 3”) is -7.9” at 300 and -15.1” at 350. Max ord is 2.8” from 110-130 yards.
In other words, how you zero the rifle probably matters more than 150 fps one way or the other.
Okie John
Originally Posted by Brad
If Montana had a standing army, a 270 Win with Federal Blue Box 130's would be the standard issue.
Since you stated you love the 30-06, mainly used for elk, don't mind the little extra recoil or slightly longer bolt throw plus have sunk cost in the 30-06, why don't you keep it and rebarrel it with one of your choosing? By time you buy a 308win rifle, plus scope, mounts/base, etc you'll could be $$$ ahead just putting new barrel on your beloved 30-06. Just a thought.
Now if just WANT to buy a 308win, then no excuse or justification needed. Buy the 308win rifle that appeals to you.
I'm actually headed in this direction. I'm looking to move a different rifle and roll the proceeds into a RAR .308 and scope. Perhaps I will bed the .30-06's action and freefloat the barrel myself and see if there is improvement.
Expat
"There are no dangerous weapons. There are only dangerous men." - Robert Heinlein
I think on game performance will be indistinguishable if shot placement is proper.
A true and good way to end this discussion.
This.
But nobody here really wants clarity, so I’ll add chronograph data comparing fresh WW PowerPoint factory ammo in a 22.7” Tikka T3 in 308 and a 24” FN Mauser in 30-06. • 308/150 velocity was 2,782 fps in the Tikka. • 308/180 velocity was 2,510 fps in the Tikka. • 30-06/150 velocity was 2,911 fps in the FN Mauser, or 129 fps faster than the 308. • 30-06/180 velocity was 2,734 fps in the FN Mauser, or 224 fps faster than the 308.
Folks say that the difference between the 308 and the 30-06 is ~150 fps. I’ve tested nine common 150-grain 308 factory loads this year. Velocities range from 2,708 to 2,855 in one rifle, so at least with 150-grain ammo, you can gain or lose about as much speed by switching loads as you could by switching to a hypothetical 30-06. Not sure on 308/180’s—I need to test more of them.
In other news, the Mauser gets 2,610 fps with Federal’s cheapo 30-06/180, but 2,734 fps with 180 PowerPoints, so again you could gain (or lose) about as much speed (114 fps) by changing loads as by changing cartridges.
If you go from a slow 308 rifle/load to a fast 30-06 rifle/load, then the 224 fps difference might merit a longer, heavier rifle. But without testing both rifles with several loads, you could easily go from a fast 308 rifle/load to a slow 30-06 rifle/load. Plus you’d still have to test a bunch of ammo and keep a bunch of notes to know what each rifle does with each load.
Probably best to focus on shot placement.
Okie John
You're exactly right in that a fast 308 can be ahead of a slow -06. My 308 shoots 155 Scenars in the 2900s with under-book loads of Varget (and a 26" barrel ). The key point to all this is the end result will be the same. A 30 cal bullet through a critter. If I knew I wanted to shoot heavier bullets, I'd get an -06, if I thought I'd stick to 165 and 180gn bullets, I'd get a 308.
I've had quite a few of both. If you're shooting deer at under 300 yards, probably not much difference. If you're shooting heavier bullets -- 180 grains and up the 06 shines.
Personally, I'd rather shoot the 06 at lower pressure than what the 308 is loaded. The 06 cases last a very long time. I don't care to hotrod reloads. My favorite cartridge could very well be the 06.
Plus, I don't like short action rifles - it limits the seating of the bullets and that influences my preference.
My preference is likely different than others. that's why they are called personal preferences.
I prefer classic. Semper Fi I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
I spend considerable time observing hundreds of other people shooting, not just at the range but in the field. Which is exactly why I can make observations about how other people react to recoil, and other factors, not just my own reactions.
I've spent over 40 years being a professional journalist, which means observing and analyzing not just my personal experiences, but those of others. Your posts are always about your own experiences. This doesn't mean they're invalid, but does mean they're only valid to one person among the over 7 billion humans on earth.
Your personnel experience are very much in line with reality and the science that supports it, a wealth of good accurate information and an easy read.
The decision between a 308W and a 30-06 should be based on platform, terrain, species hunted, and personal likes.
In BC, given the choice, I would always pick the 30-06 over the 308W. The 30-06 as the ability to launch 200gr NAB's ~ 2700ft/s, QL predicts pressure to be just north of 60k with H-414 or RL-17, this bullet has the on game performance of a 250gr medium (33,35,36 cal). It is accurate enough to slam steel (16"x16") at 550yards from a rest, recoil is lighter than the mediums as well.
Hunt mainly moose, b-bear and deer the 308W is surely capable but the big bullet in the 30-06 will 'mentally' reduce the pucker factor before/when G-bear and big B-bear are encountered close up and is 500+yds capable.
As far as accuracy is concerned a mechanically sound rifle , reliable scope 'think tracking and ability to hold zero', impeccable handloads will produce the accuracy required for reliable hits......is the 308W more accurate?....doesn't matter in a hunting scenario. The off the shelf Finnlite I have has put 3 into <8" at 1000 yards as an example of accuracy.
Good thread...good read. I got an '06 thinking the extra power over the 308 made a difference. Then I saw a 24" 308 nearly match my '06 in speed. My accuracy load with 190's isn't a top pressure load, which didn't shoot as well, and the 308 was just as accurate and nearly as fast with 12 grains less powder and less recoil. If I were to get another medium 30 tomorrow, I'd buy a 308. Yes, the performance difference between the two is real, but it is also irrelevant.
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It's all good.
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