Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Tell me again, why is H4350 unobtainium?

What is the deal again? It WAS my favorite powder and you can't even backorder it at lots of places.

Very popular + intermittent shipping from Australia

Yep. It's popular because it's a very flexible powder for many common hunting chamberings and very reliable/consistent for the match/tactical crowd too.

It's funny though. It used to be one of the powders that you could count on finding just about anywhere that sold powder. It was always one that they would have.

I blame Mule Deer, who's often said good things about it, increasing demand.😜

Thank goodness I glommed onto a couple pounds of RL 26 before he made that popular.

I'm glad I picked up an 8 lb jug that's should be just enough to last me another 10+ years...

Just switch to 4451, and live easy.

Probably the reason there isn't any H4350. Marketing a new powder and meeting new demand. Made by same Corp.

Distributed.

H4350 is from Thales in Australia, IMR4451 is from General Dynamics in Canada.

6.5 CM popularity.

Too late. The 6.5 Creed fanboys have discovered it. It is "out of stock" everywhere it is sold on the internet.

I found a bunch of it in Rifle, Colorado a few months back.

H4350

Dunno if they have any left.

As well as that, every handloader in Australia uses it. 2209 & 2208 are very popular here.

I have a new 8# jug of 4350. There is no possibility of using it all up before I kick off. Same with a 8 # jug of 4895. I have enough ammo loaded to last me until then end of my hunting career. Maybe I will wait until the next big shortage and sell them for $500 each..

I've seen it off and on here locally. Kind of like AR Comp powder. I buy it when I see it...

Pappy,

Ha! Actually I've been suggesting switching to IMR4451 for more than a year now. It was also recently in short supply, which Hodgdon tells me was also due to 6.5 Creedmoor users, but is now in stock at several places. In fact I just received a recently ordered 8-pounder, even though I'd just opened another, because I'm going through 4451 like I used to go through H4350. Haven't found a cartridge/load combination yet where 4451 doesn't work as well as H4350, and in some it's worked better.

Now I need to buy some 4451.

My go-to powders would then be: TAC, Varget, H4350, RL26, and maybe 4451

In my experience that's a pretty good list--except I'd sub 4451 for H4350, with no "maybe."

I assume this is NOT grain for grain replacement?

The main use I'd have for 4451 now would be for 90gr e-tips in my.243, but I've got a bunch of other stuff to burn up, so I may not get to to it. RL26 is looking good for 100gr and up bullets. Used 45gr under a Sierra PH last year to whack a doe, and if I get that far in my rotation, 103gr ELD-Xs over a bit more will get a turn this season in my fast-twist Number 1V. Might have to hire a crew to carry it for me, though!

Another new one I'm liking is CFE223, in the .308, and eventually maybe in the CZ Grendel that I'm picking up tomorrow. Pretty impressive, according to the data I've seen, though for some reason Hodgdon doesn't list it for that round, in the printed manual anyway.

Oops, my bad you're correct.

las,

With my present batches of H4350 and IMR4451, the 4451 is slightly faster-burning, but not much. In my 7x57 I use 46.0 grains of H4350 with 160-grain bullets, and with 4451 get the same results with 45.5. Have had similar results in other rounds, so they're pretty close--close enough that some lots may get exactly the same results, or H4350 might be slightly faster burning than 4451.

Is the 4451 powder measure friendly?

Thanks,

Jeff

Gun Powder and explosives can only be transported in a limited number of ships that are licensed for the task to be as unspecific as I can.
There is potential conflict in the world.
These ships need to remain unknown.

That is all anyone needs to know.

My advice is to treat powder like your booze and stock more than you need.

John

Seems to be some H4350 becoming more available. I bought 2lb in Sportsman's warehouse Loveland, Co. Have seen some in other stores too.

LC

Alright, John. How about a new list of your favorite 4451 recipes for the old 7x57. Inquiring minds, you know.

By the way, I've been goofing around with Hunter and 160-grain Partitions, but have some data for Big Game in loads from 100- to 175-grains. I'm planning to work up some loads using 154-gr SP at around 2600+/- to use on pigs and our dinky deer. The Ramshot powders seem to be more available than just about anything else right now.

Jeff,

4451 is just as measure-friendly as H4350. It's another short-cut extruded powder.

Mike,

As I've pointed out before, 7x57's vary considerably in how much powder they'll take, due to variations in throat length. Mine custom rifle was chambered with a PT&G "target" reamer with a short throat, so doesn't need as much powder to get the same velocities as most other 7x57's. I've only tried 4451 with bullets in the 160-grain range, mostly because they all shoot to the same POI in this rifle, and 45.5 grains of 4451 gets right around 2700 fps with most bullets, from a 21-inch barrel.

Dang, I'm way understocked on booze!

Thanks, John. I'm aware of your caution about the differences in throats, etc., but I was just wondering of there was some correspondence between 4451 and H4350. From your H4350 recipes in "Gack" it looks like there's about a half grain.

Mike,

As I've mentioned in other posts (and in various articles and books) there is no firm relationship between different powders of very similar burn-rates, because any powder will vary slightly in burn-rate from lot to lot. IMR4350 and H4350 are a good example. When H4350 appeared, many handloaders firmly stated it was slower burning than IMR4350, and much of Hodgdon's data backed that up.

But one of the interesting side-effects of companies posting their latest data on the Internet is a clearer look at how powder lots vary. Since it was first introduced, the latest data for H4350 has been both "slower"
and "faster" than the latest data for IMR4350. This isn't a mystery, just the way powders vary over time.

Another little piece of evidence came with my first two lots of IMR4451. The first was a couple pounds sent to me by Hodgdon to try out. I liked it so well I ordered an 8-pound jug off the Internet--and discovered its burn-rate was slightly faster, not surprising since it was over a year after my first sample showed up, and the jug was a new lot. After a little more testing, I eventually mixed what remained of my first two pounds in with the jug--and not surprisingly, the mixed IMR4451 was a little slower than the jug's initial burn-rate.

What I understand from powder companies is that's exactly how new batches of powder are mixed to result in a reasonably consistent burn-rate for handloading powders. They keep some slower and faster lots of that powder on hand, so they can "adjust" the burn-rate of a new manufacturing lot.

On the other hand, many ammo companies use unmixed powders, adjusting the charge according to how the new lot burns. But they're usually boxcar loads of powder, and have pressure-testing equipment.

Great, thanks John!

Jeff

When I see certain powders that I want that's not commonly found, I usually buy it and try not to look at the price tag. There's a fellow that shows up at certain gun shows that has many of these "unattainable" powders. So I try to have a couple $100 set aside for powder purchases come gun show time.

I had difficulty getting 215 primers for a while. A friend picked some up for me at the Tulsa gun show. Now I see it fairly often. Go figure.

My advice is to be prepared when you attend gun shows, the gun shows brings lots of vendors. Sometimes internet searches work too.

IMR 4350 is also hard to find, searched several stores in my area and finally found a pound at the area's largest gun show. It was the last that any of the reloading vendors had.

How do people just make stuff up and then write about it with such authority? I mean, honestly.

As a matter of facts, there are none: This is totally untrue. To anyone in shipping it's just absurd.

Moving this type of cargo is a matter of commercial normality. If there are shortages of powder where you live, its just supply and demand. Containers of powder and ammunition, both military and sporting, are shipped around the world as a matter of course on standard container ships. They have only to observe the appropriate IMO standards for sea transport that anyone shipping hairspray or fishmeal does. There are restrictions only in the separation of hazardous cargo, where it can be stowed on the ship, and with some classes, in the timing at when it can be loaded or discharged. None of which impedes its transport around the globe.

If my information is not current then I will not repeat it, but as a Aussie, commenting on an Aussie powder manufacturer exporting a product which would be a target of value in time of conflict, I simply passed on information that was communicated to me. I would also prefer to know what you state is true. It would be a safeguard we could agree to.
John

You can be as Australian as you like, but you really shouldn't repeat that. The world is a lot more practical. (And whatever else you were told by that person needs to be reconsidered)

I know some about the shipping of consumer-grade fireworks, directly from China, and some of the hoops involved. From what I could tell, regulations weren't particularly strict, and there was nothing secretive about them. They were shipped in shipping containers on a shipping vessel, and then had to be transported in specific ways once they got to the US. It didn't take much time from being notified of the shipment to receiving it on a trailer. Nothing particularly clandestine about the process, but fireworks have not been military-grade for some centuries now.

To be honest even the shipping of actual currency isn't especially secretive. (Probably so as to not draw attention.) Eighteen tons worth of twenty dollar bills...

There are things more hazardous than ADI's powders being shipped as a matter of course.

The most secretive product (apart from Naval Intelligence work in a former role) shipped around the Pacific was in fact - concrete. All involved were sworn to secrecy. It become plain to me that we were shipping thousands of tons of concrete each month to Mururoa Atoll on behalf of the French government. They must have concreted that whole island after they stopped nuclear bomb testing.

Third Generation Shooting Supply in Oklahoma has a good supply of IMR 4350 as of this morning.

CarlsenHighway,

Maybe you can confirm (or dis-confirm) what I was told by one of higher-ups in one of the corporations involved in the buying, selling and hence transporting of powders around the world.

The recent component "shortage" here in the U.S. was caused not by lower supplies of reloading components, but by high demand due to the possibility of Obama declaring who-knows-what about the purchase of guns and ammo. But demand was so high, my contact said, that the authorities in Auckland grew alarmed at so many more ships full of powder passing through their port on the way to the U.S., and ruled that no more than one powder-container ship could be in the harbor at one time. This created a bottleneck between Australia and the U.S. which made the shortage worse.

Now, maybe he didn't know what he was talking about, but since he's been employed by a major powder company for many years I don't know why he'd be confused. Since you're there, maybe you could find out something about this possibility.

John,

Each port interprets the regulations regarding the transiting of class 1 explosives through their port. Auckland in my experience is more "éxplosives aware" than others I know, even to the point of commissioning a study some time back to see what would happen if 18 tons worth of it went off. (Not good) This is because, unlike many other ports, the Auckland container terminals are not in an industrial area remote from the city, but is right in the heart of the CBD. In addition, vehicles that leave the port with hazardous goods must drive or rail right through the most built up and populous areas.

Auckland will indeed berth their vessels depending on whether they are carrying containers of class 1 explosives and will not want more than one ship alongside at one time. (They also used to work with the rule that explosives containers transiting used to have to come off and be taken to a remote part of the terminal, although I am not sure if they still do this every time.)

While this sounds like I am validating what you have been told, I must say that in reality this is not the issue it might sound like. Berthing arrangements for vessels are worked out in advance to avoid clashes like this - they are in the business of working ships after all - not delaying them. Also, this is not recent, Auckland have been handling this cargo this way for at least twenty years.

What you have been told is loosely based on truth concerning the way Port of Auckland handles their class 1 containers. Extrapolating, It is possible that Thales or ADI may not have shipped as many containers of product as they wanted to because of this.

Bear in mind, in the seafreight world it is standard practice for exporters to blame ports for shipment delays of all kinds, particularly ones in other countries. Also, not every ship from Australia to the US must go through Auckland, probably not even most of them.

Let me put it another way: No offense to your friend intended, but If Auckland Port was indeed a bottleneck greatly exacerbating the shortage of sporting powders in the USA, I am quite sure I could find a solution to that situation given the benefit only of a comfortable chair, the opportunity to take up smoking once more, and about 15 seconds worth of thought.


(Ironically enough, I went and bought some AR2209 only the day before.)

James

James,

Thanks very much for your info.

I do know that other factors were (and may still may be) involved in the shortage of ADI powders, though I can't discuss them on a public forum.

Good hunting,

Found 8 lbs in a store. Gonna try it soon.

local hdwe store has 7, 1pounders and a 8 pound jug

Bought a can while in the big town to the west yesterday.

Never used it before.....but there sure is a lot of talk about it! Figured I would try some.