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#12253978 - 09/06/17 Boat tails vs flat base bullets  
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ALLongshot Offline
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How many of you have rifles that just doesn't like boat tail bullets? What style have you had better luck with? I understand the concept of the boat tail design but for my hunting situations I have no place to shoot over 250 yards, so the design doesn't have that many advantages at that distance.

CMG 300 BP

#12254087 - 09/06/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: ALLongshot]  
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SEM Offline
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I shoot mostly FB bullets like you not into the ultra long range stuff as much anymore, more and more lately I find Speer's bullets seem to be my favorite good selection and great accuracy

#12254965 - 09/06/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: ALLongshot]  
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Dave_in_WV Online content
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I have two rifles that don't seem to like boat tails. They shoot flat base bullets fine. I usually buy flat base bullets because the distances here hunting are not long enough a boat tail will have an advantage. I usually buy Honady bullets but I bought Rem Corelokts for years.


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#12255046 - 09/06/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: ALLongshot]  
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HaYen Offline
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I did read some data stating that because of the design on the BT the internal pressure can vary more than the FB. I personally have no data to support their claim. I can see where the design of the bottom could cause a difference in pressure but to cause a spread in pressure variance from round to round would more data. That being said, yes I can see, with all other variables being the same (weight, length, material, diameter, manufacturing process), how the bottom design would effect pressure and thus the downstream effect of how a round will shoot.

Some say to use your load data using the same lot of materials (powder, bullets, primer, cases). When a lot changes, re-develop / tweek your load. If I were shooting a 1000 yard competition, I might do just that. If I'm shooting a Bull Elk at 200 yards, uuuuhhh maybe not so much not so much.

That's me ... YMMV

BJ


Remember, not everyone has a happy ending, so be happy when you can
#12255304 - 09/06/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: ALLongshot]  
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Flat base bullets are shorter. Some rifles like this. Also I have read the Crown is less critical with flate base bullets.


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#12255486 - 09/06/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: ALLongshot]  
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powdr Online content
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For people that like to seat their bullets out further than normal, the boat tail bullet does not allow one to get a good grip on the bullet because of the length of the boat tail itself. powdr

#12255503 - 09/06/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: powdr]  
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mathman Offline
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How much grip do you need?

#12255524 - 09/06/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: ALLongshot]  
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Mathman, most say at least a caliber. I know when seating the 180gr BT in the 338-284... that with the boat tail and an average of .338 grip on the straight shank of the bullet it left the bullet dreadfully low in the neck of the case. As a matter of fact, it went all the way to the neck shoulder junction. powdr

#12255554 - 09/06/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: powdr]  
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mathman Offline
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I was wondering if that's what you were thinking. But thousands upon thousands of great shooting 300 Win. magnums and 300 Savages ought to put that idea to rest.

#12256391 - 09/07/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: mathman]  
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Azar Offline
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Don't forget .223's...


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― Patrick Rothfuss, The Wise Man's Fear
Bravo

#12257416 - 09/07/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: ALLongshot]  
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Not really Mathman, everyone knows that to shoot a boat tail bullet in a 300 W or S the bullet still must be seated lower in the case. It has nothing to do with a certain caliber or cartridge. It has everything to do with getting a bullet seated straight w/a good grip and it's hard to do w/a short neck cartridge. Now there's always the guy that comes along and says mine shoots boat tails fine w/an .055 grip on the bullet. The problem w/that is I've just never met him. And don't give me the age old, well the target shooters often have very little grip on their bullets. That's an entirely different discussion. You might want to go measure yours Mathman, just as a point of interest. You see there's not one in ten that can tell how far down in the case their bullet sticks. They all can tell what their COL is but don't have a clue what grip they have on their bullet. powdr

#12258138 - 09/08/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: ALLongshot]  
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Azar Offline
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I believe the point he was trying to make was certain cartridges don't even have 1 caliber worth of neck available (like the 3 mentioned so far) and there are plenty of examples of accurate arms chambered for those cartridges.


“There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.”
― Patrick Rothfuss, The Wise Man's Fear
#12258195 - 09/08/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: powdr]  
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mathman Offline
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Originally Posted by Azar
I believe the point he was trying to make was certain cartridges don't even have 1 caliber worth of neck available (like the 3 mentioned so far) and there are plenty of examples of accurate arms chambered for those cartridges.


Pretty much it.

I have a 700 Classic in 300 Savage that's a super shooter, and no matter the loading procedure there's only about .2" of neck to work with.

#12258209 - 09/08/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: powdr]  
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mathman Offline
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Originally Posted by powdr
Not really Mathman, everyone knows that to shoot a boat tail bullet in a 300 W or S the bullet still must be seated lower in the case. It has nothing to do with a certain caliber or cartridge. It has everything to do with getting a bullet seated straight w/a good grip and it's hard to do w/a short neck cartridge. Now there's always the guy that comes along and says mine shoots boat tails fine w/an .055 grip on the bullet. The problem w/that is I've just never met him. And don't give me the age old, well the target shooters often have very little grip on their bullets. That's an entirely different discussion. You might want to go measure yours Mathman, just as a point of interest. You see there's not one in ten that can tell how far down in the case their bullet sticks. They all can tell what their COL is but don't have a clue what grip they have on their bullet. powdr


Actually, whether or not you can get "a caliber's worth" of grip depends exactly on the particular cartridge. If there isn't a neck that long then it can't be done, as in the examples I mentioned.

As far as seating bullets straight, measurements beyond simple COL and the like I'm pretty sure I have a decent grasp of the subject.

#12258407 - 09/08/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: ALLongshot]  
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Seafire Offline
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Well I've loaded for my 7 x 57 Featherweight for this season...

30 grains of 4198, with a 139 grain Hornady...

but my local source has dropped the FB version, and is just selling the boat tailed version..

so I'm grumbling away to myself...

but truth be told, once I quit crying in my beer over it...

I am sure the combo will be just fine...

I think we all get particular over change, if it is not our choosing...

The deer will never know the difference, believe me...

heck, I've been bitching for 20 plus years as they keep on dropping Round Nose bullets
from product lines...I just don't need all the changes that everyone else thinks they need..

I also don't need a 500 yd load, to drop a raggedy blacktail at 100 to 150 yds...

heck I was feeding them moldy biscuits out of the frig yesterday, that my wife hadn't thrown out..
out in my front yard....


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#12258682 - 09/08/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: ALLongshot]  
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I never said anything about the darn length of the neck. I said a grip of one caliber has been used for a long time standard no matter how long the neck is. So you want to argue over .2 or .3 on a 300 Savage. You win Mathman. powdr

Last edited by powdr; 09/08/17.
#12258702 - 09/08/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: powdr]  
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mathman Offline
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My point was the "standard" doesn't hold much water since there are so many well functioning counterexamples to its necessity.

It's not about "winning," it's about logic and facts.

#12258785 - 09/08/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: ALLongshot]  
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I'm sure some have already seen this, but it seems appropriate to put it here: Flat-Base And Boattail Rifle Bullets by John Barsness

#12259498 - 09/08/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: powdr]  
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Steve Redgwell Offline
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Originally Posted by powdr
I never said anything about the darn length of the neck. I said a grip of one caliber has been used for a long time standard no matter how long the neck is. So you want to argue over .2 or .3 on a 300 Savage. You win Mathman. powdr


If you want to use that as your yardstick, go for it. There's nothing wrong with doing that at all. I don't know who initially suggested it years ago, but it's an easy thing to do.

In cases with shorter necks, I limit my bullet weights so that the base comes to the bottom of case neck, and never deeper than the bottom of the shoulder. If I need a heavier bullet, I change cartridges. Some people do not have that option though. A few guys at my club lengthen the throat so they can use heavier bullets, but I've never done that myself.

WRT cases with short necks, when I first built loads for my 6x45mm (made from 223 Rem cases), I seated the base of the bullet to the bottom of the neck and saw if it would chamber. Then went from there with powders.

Almost everything I read about this cartridge suggested a max. OAL of 2.26 inches, but that was only because of the AR mags. After all, is a wildcat, so there is no SAAMI spec. Even then, chambers are different, rifle to rifle. I built a varmint rifle from a Savage Model 10 action and the mag length was 2.39 inches. Lots of room, so the only restriction was the chamber. As a result, I don't load anything over 85 grains in that rifle. In my case, the max OAL with that bullet is 2.31 inches. And the long bullets are BTs. The base sits at the bottom of the shoulder area.





Safe Shooting!
Steve Redgwell
www.303british.com

Ctg/rifle books, more!

Merda taurorum animas conturbit
#12261114 - 09/09/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: ALLongshot]  
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Steve, that's exactly what I do. I don't want the bullet below the base of the neck shoulder junction. It's just that some of the younger guys don't understand that it's not easy to shoot boat tails and keep them straight in the case w/only a slight grip on them. Wasn't trying to win anybody over or change anyone's mind. powdr

#12263345 - 09/11/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: ALLongshot]  
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FC363 Offline
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I think most people's lack of results with Boat Tail bullets lies more with their chosen bullet than it does with the design. I don't have a single rifle that doesn't shoot Nosler BT's as well or better than anything else. As to the short grip subject, my .30BR only has about .135 of bullet seated into the neck when it's ready to fire, and it will make any factory cartridge look bad. Seating below the neck/shoulder junction can be bad for any bullet. Most FB bullets are about .0005 bigger at the base than the shank, and that can make a bullet fit the bore tight enough to make a difference.


"Give a lazy man the toughest job, and he will find the easiest way to do it"
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