Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters REDUCE LOADS

I WAS THINKING OF A REDUCE LOAD FOR THE 270 WINCHESTER FOR A SIERRA BULLET 130 GR. WITH 26 GR OF 4350 IMR .I JUST DON'T LIKE THE 26 FROM 52 BEEN USING JUST ASKING GUN NUTS

Reducing the charges of a slow-burning powder like IMR4350 below about 90% of maximum is dangerous. You'd be a lot better off (and save money and perhaps your life) by using H4895. Maximum loads can safely be reduced 40%. Look up both the .270 data for 130-grain bullets and their guidelines for reduced loads with H4895 on Hodgdon's website.

DID THEY SAY 52 X .6 = 31.2 THERE IS ALL SORTS OF INFO OUT THERE WITH 10 TO 18 GR OF POWDER FOR 1500 FT PER SEC. JUST THINK THESE LOADS DON'T ADD UP

Where did you come up with the specific charge of 26gr of IMR4350?

You could get away with 27.0gr of H4895 and work your way up from there, but I wouldn't dream of doing it with either IMR4350 or H-4350 or any less amount of H4895.

Talk to the folks at Hodgdon and ask them why drastically reduced loads are a very bad thing.

A hint- Hodgdon found that H-4895 could be reduced UP TO 60% of the maximum charge of H4895 for any given rifle cartridge. Any less than 60% could cause dangerous pressure excursions as well as parts of the rifle and your body going on their own excursions, causing you to go on an excursion to either the hospital or the Medical Examiners office for your last butt wipe.

But then, your mileage may vary 'cause God looks after certain groups of folks.

Ed

WENT WITH THE LOWEST START X BY .6 THATS ALL

Some internet guru wrote that you could use 10gr-18gr of IMR4350 for a reduced load or some OTHER powder?

Ed

You might need new glasses, or a new computer screen. Your supposed info on IMR4350 is not just way off, but dangerous.

No acknowledgement / agreement, or thanks, to these helpful, knowledgeable gents........just a curt, "that's all"........???

here, just for you,.....

WHAT'S UP WITH THIS GUY?

Dude, just get some TrailBoss and don't be a grouch about it. TB is very easy to make reduced loads for and has been very accurate in every cartridge I've tried it in using cast or jacketed. The IMR website has load workup info.

OR.....

I prefer 4198 over the reduced 4895 loads....

I've loaded many a cartridge for kids to use...in many calibers
with the 270 being one...

Standard charge is 30 grains of 4198....

Cast bullet load manuals will give you lots of options...

and even tho, they are for cast bullets, the pressures of these loads
are WAAAAAY below SAAMI specs...

30 grains of 4198, prevent a double charge if one is the type
that doesn't pay attention to what they are doing...

IMR 4198 or H 4198 are pretty interchangeable for this application.

What bullet weight you choose doesn't matter...

30 grains of 4198, turn most standard calibers into the equivalent of a 30/30.
at a 30/30s ball park speeds...

still being a 200 yds deer load....

25 plus years has taught me that...

and besides loading these loads for kids, I often carry them afield myself
since I hunt in a wooded area, where 30/30 ranges are about what you get.

Best of Luck on your endeavor...

I like the 4198 too. 31gr of H4198 in my daughter's 20" 7mm-08 turns up 2,550 fps with 120's. Recoil is quite low and it's a legit 200yd deer rifle. I likely will look at 4895 in a couple years as a full-power option that won't require quite as much powder as the typical Varget/RL15/BigGame/CFE223 loads.

I use a lot of a "semi-reduced" load in 308 Winchester, basically an old target load with 3031 under a 165/168 at 2550 fps +/-.

These days I also use a lot of somewhat reduced loads in the .30-06, .308, .270, 8x57 and 6.5x55 loads used in a 100+ year old M96. Not squib loads, the '06 and .308 are at about .300 Savage levels and the .270 about like a 7mm-08. IMR4895 is the powder of choice for all of them. Others will obviously work but IMR4895 has never not given an outstandingly accurate load in any rifle so used and logistics-wise it's easier to keep one big batch of the same kind of powder on hand.

H-4895 has worked well for me. Very accurate. You can reduce down as much as 60% of max. Velocity is close to the percentage you choose to load.

I like 4895 for these modest reduction loads too since it goes through a powder measure easier and does produce very good accuracy. But I got a super deal on an 8 pounder of 3031 so I'm doing like the match shooting Marines used to do and burning 39 grains under a 168.

Some of my old target notes see that load locking up TIGHT little knots at 200 yards, with aplomb.

GTC

It sure is a good one. I've drilled a couple of ten shot, half moa groups with it, and using thrown charges too.

From Hodgdon website:

Hodgdon Powder Company has found that H4895 can be loaded to reduced levels. H4895 was chosen because it is the slowest burning propellant that ignites uniformly in reduced charges. To create reduced loads, the 60% formula is recommended.
Find the H4895 load in the Reloading Data Center for your caliber and bullet. Take the maximum H4895 charge listed and multiply by 60% (.6). The load may
be adjusted up from there to achieve the desired velocity and accuracy.
This works only where H4895 is listed. DO NOT use in a cartridge where H4895 is not shown.

REAL MEN FILL THAT .270 CASE WITH 1.5 FG, STUFF A SPG LUBED GREASER IN IT AND KILL STUFF MAYBE 50 YARDS OUT. OR EVEN .6 FURTHER!!!

Seafire, where you refer to a load of 30 grains of 4198 is this with cast bullets or with c & c bullets?

I am interested because I want to develop a load for the 170 grain 30/30 bullet in the 30-06. Hornady data says these bullets can be driven up to 2500 fps. Where I hunt I use an elevated shooting house set about 60 to 70 yards from a bait station. I figure one of these bullets driven a little above 30/30 speeds should be a good killer without destroying a lot of meat.

At one time I developed a load with R15 powder but now the powder is gone as well as the loads I had made up. I haven't seen any R15 in at least 2 years or more.

Am also curious if I4895 powder can be used in reduced loads similar to H4895.

JIm

In my experience, IMRs 4895 can be used for the same formula as H 4895... in fact I prefer it personally

I don't care for H 4895 for a batch of reasons for reduced loads... but none of those reasons have to do with
concern for safety of the loads...

Hodgdon pushes H4895 loads for one reason and one reason only: they didn't develop the data.
it was GIVEN TO THEM by ADI.. and ADI developed it based on a request from the Australian Military
to have one powder to use from A to Z on cartridge size, plus that could be reduced load if economy
required it.

Since we are not talking using big cases here.. that is why I think ADI developed 4198 is preferrable
and doesn't have some of the traits of why I don't care for the H 4895 reduced loads...

IMR 4198 is essentially the same burn rate, not spot on, but close enough in the real world.
same with RL 7 actually.

TO JIM:

even tho a lot of that data is gleened from cast bullet load data and then worked up and down, it work just fine with
Jacketed Bullets...cast bullet data used has much lower pressure, so even tho you will obtain higher pressures with
non cast bullets, you are still nowhere approaching SAAMI max specs...

so a 170 grainer would be fine Jim, you're not pushing SAAMI specs, even moving your charge up to obtain
the 2500 fps you speak of... for those applications, I recommend a ballistic tip most of the time...they will open
up to about 1200 to 1300 fps reliably impact velocity.

Reduced loads are necessarily reduced pressure loads, just reduced velocity and recoil.

Are you sure about that? J.B. has written that jacketed bullets produced less pressure than cast bullets since cast bullets bump up to fill the bore more completely.

I believe he's also written about this same idea in a Handloader article or two...

Seafire,

Do you mind explaining the reasons you don't care for reduce loads using H4895? I'd be very interesting in hear your reasons as I'm looking to use H4895 for reduce loads in my 308win. Thanks!

Leo

I've used 4895 be it IMR or H for more more years than I care to remember for most of my cast loadings in many chamberings and for a bushel of jacketeted reduced youth loads in 243,6.5x55 and 7x57 ..it's safe yet still produces enough pressure to dispatch deer sized game easily with the added benefit of lighter recoil.

I agree with Seafire. In cases up to the 30-06 case in volume, 4198 works great. I've had better luck with the IMR version. Cast bullets 170-230 gr perform well in the 30-06. A 311299 version at 215 grains in ww quenched gives me right at 2000fps and the smallest groups my Rem 700 produces at 100yds. Lighter bullets 150-110gr both cast and jacketed I use Unique or 2400 in 30-06.

The old 13 grains of Red Dot load would likely work well in the 270 under 130's, and I'm sure Unique or Blue Dot or 2400 could be used to good effect by a prudent and knowledgeable loader, but 4198 would provide a larger margin of error in finding safe starting charges, and of course Hodgdon has Trail Boss and the reduced data with H4895. AA5744 is pushed as a good reducing powder by the manufacturer, and my results have been great with it in several cases, but they want the Lord's good fortune for a lb of it.

Reduced load workup has really been my thing the last few years. I now cast the majority of bullets I shoot, and saving on powder has allowed me to shoot that much more.

Thanks Seafire you been lots of help on this

Well in the scope of things, it doesn't matter...

these cast bullet loads are producing pressure way under SAAMI specs, so they are safe either way...

Sure Leo, I usually get flamed, but what the hell.. its the campfire...

Two major reasons actually....

Hodgdon's version is not as consistent as IMRs version..
What I mean, is that you can find a tack driver load with Hodgdon's, and then up or down a tenth of
a grain, and you can see accurate degrade... at least by my observations or desires..

IMR's version doesn't do that from my observations...so therefore that is the reason I prefer
IMRs version for my own personal use, If I am using a 4895...

Second major reason is retort, or KaBoom when you pull the trigger. It usually won't bother
most guys, but I load a lot of reduced loads for kids, to include many boy scouts in the 12 to 14
year old range especially.. the extra noise intimidates more than just a few of them.

it actually seems the retort is louder with the reduced load, than those approaching full power
loads with H 4895... Just my opinion and observation... and many present agreed with me..

Doing loads that are reduced recoil loads, it is the same thing for women... they perceive more
recoil, but in actuality it is just a louder noise when you pull the trigger...

finally with the 60% rule, Hodgdon pushes that powder for that application because ADI developed the
load data for them... not Hodgdon...and also did the testing and pressure readings...

For those types of loads, I have found 4198 is a much more applicable powder for the job.
Either IMRs or Hodgdon's.... IMR is the more accurate of the two, but H4198 is certainly usable
RL 7 is another good powder for the application...

Right now have been practicing and playing with reduced loads with H 322..
Particularly in the 223, developing another Ingwe style Bunny Load alternative.

15 grains of H 322 at 100 yds, is actually proving to a hare ( snicker) more accurate
than the 4198 loads were...at least out of the Rem ADL test mule rifle, whose barrel is a high
miler...its easily minute of bunny head at 100 yds...

Hope that at least explains my thoughts on the subject..and I am sure there are plenty of guys
who might disagree with me...but I spend a lot of time playing with this stuff...so opinions do
form...

cheers and best regards

My pleasure... always more than happy to assist another campfire member anytime..

cheers and best regards

Thank you also this is just what I wanted to learn. I happen to have I4198 and I4895 on hand and my H4895 is nearly gone. I have a couple of hundred 170 grain Hornady bullets on the shelf so I should be able to easily find something suitable to try for this Fall.

Jim

15.0 grains of Unique gives great accuracy in my .35 Whelen with cast bullets weighing 200-215 grains.

Thank you, Seafire, for your explanation! Much appreciated.

Leo

I've been dinking around with reduced loads for trigger practice, and that's been my experience as well. I find the same with 5744. I haven't tried 4198 (yet) though. Do you find the report less?

I don't know about Seafire, but in all the reduced loads I've tried using IMR 4198, the report has been pretty mild. I use it in 223 under cast 60gr bullets for about 2200fps, in 243 with 70gr bullets for the mid 2000's, in 30-30 with 175 cast bullets for 1600-1800, in 30-06 for bullets 175-230gr. In all cases, in rifle-length bbls, the powder seems to get consumed well before the muzzle. Handgun powders produce less noise than the 4198.

I recently played with some H4895 reduced loads, and thought they were unusually loud too. That was one of the reasons I stopped messing with them.
H4895 wasn't a listed powder for my 221 case which is supposed to be a no no , but I looked at alot of 222 data and judged what I thought was a safe starting point. H4198 is the powder I've been using for my go to fireball load, so it'd be cool to use it for this app as well.

Seafire, Are you using the same x .6 of max load reduced load formula when using H4198? Is there anything special to consider when reducing loads in small cases like the fireball?

In the Fireball, 4895 is too slow,and 4198 isn't a reduced load powder....

As state above Reverend.... 4198 is a lot less of a report...

I've got some 7 x 57 rounds loaded up for deer season here...30 grains of IMR 4198
and 139 grainSP Hornadys...

Grovey,

this right here....

actually 4895 is a reduced velocity and pressure load in the Fireball...
it'll still make it go bang...

4198 is within its burn rate...

With 4198, I am NOT using a 60-%rule with this powder...

Actually I use older reload manuals, cast bullet manuals and the old IMR Brown Sheet
reloading data for what is max per each cartridge...

For reduced load fun, a Lyman Cast bullet manual, new or if you are cheap like
some of us are accused of... check out used book stores...

I've picked up a batch of older Speer Manuals in them and actually
found both a Nosler # 1 and #2 in used books stores...

I did give away the Nosler #1 I had to someone who wanted it real bad...

Because I ended up getting one given to me when someone passed
it was given to him, by John Nosler, as Mr Price had grown up and went
to school with Bob Nosler, before they relocated the company from
Ashland OR to Bend...

Old manuals can be your friend, if one doesn't get too crazy with them.

My pleasure Leo.

cheers and best regards

Thanks, SF. I'm going to pick some up and give it a try. Have you used 4198 with 100-110 grain bullets, just for plinking?

Quite frequently......

I've used the 115 grain HP Speer for deer in the past....30/30 ranges and many blacktail
are antelope sized...

but a 210 lb Big Bruzer presented himself one morning at about 8 AM, as under 50 yds

a 115 grain HP right thru the heart dropped him like a sack of potatoes...

That load was fueled by 28 grain of SR 4759 if memory serves me correctly.....

I do a lot of that stuff with a lot of my rifles... makes it enjoyable to shoot them at the range
or out in the woods plinking with them... and most of those loads are pretty darn accurate.
but also more up to killing power than people give them credit for...

Those loads with the lighter bullets don't kick more than a 223/ 22.250
and certainly less than a factory 243 load.

Seafire, Do you know what the velocity is with the 30 grs. 4198/139 Hornady and 28 grs. 4759/115 Speer?
I have used 20 grs. 4759 and Lyman's 284308 GC bullet (160 grs.) for 1724 fps with fair accuracy but, the really fun load is 10 grains Unique and Lyman's 287346 GC (130 grs.) for 1327 fps. That last load gives squirrel head accuracy to 50 yards and it's fun, fun, fun.

Thanks for the info fellas. I must admit I was looking for a different answer. I worked my way down to 12 grs of H4905 if memory serves, but the report was still loud, and the primers looked funny. Even though the groups started tightening up a bit I didn't feel right about dropping the charge any further. I made the cases from 223 brass (for the first time) , and between that and the aforementioned stuff i quit.

Your best be
Your best bet for reducing loads is going to be with pistol powders. My brother has a nice Remington Limited in 221 FB, and he has had excellent results from several powders, including Unique, Longshot, and Titegroup.

I know you can run as low as 4 grains of Blue Dot in a 223 with no ignition issues... and
6 grains max was a published load by Alliant in the early 80s for the Hornet....

so for a Fireball, it would be an application...

I know I did a 17 Fireball load for a friend who had one, but he has since passed away,
and that was utilizing Blue Dot... ( and NO he didn't pass from blowing up something
with the Blue Dot, he just passed being 83 years old)

I'd start at 2.5 grains of Blue Dot and work from there...

When ever I get around to getting a 17 Fireball barrel, for something, I can let you know then

or if someone has a good deal on a slightly used Rem Model 7 Predator in 17 Fireball
I could let you know after one of those fell into my hands...

For those following this thread, reduced loads is a broad field and is different
than regular powders for a rifle..

it more follows what pistol reloading is like since you are using pistol and shot
gun powders...
if you don't know what you are doing.. I wouldn't recommend it without a mentor
who does...

Joe,

sorry I don't... I did know what they are... but they are safe and certainly work
at 30/30 ranges, so I sorta forgot, and really didn't have the need to consult it

and Lord knows where my notes are...

if it is that critical to you my friend, I could load a couple up and pull out the old
chronograph...

A very illustrative thread... and I specialy appreciate Seafire's sound advise...

So, I would like to ask, since I have VARGET but do not have and cannot find H4895 locally... could I work with VARGET like is suggested to work with H4895? A 50% filled case of VARGET would be a safe load in cartridges like 6,6x57R, 7x57R o .270...?

When you use very small quantities of powder, like with 4198 or any of the pistol and shotgun powders, do you use any kind of filler or you jut let those few grains wander around the almost empty shell?

Thank You,

I don't use filler with 4198, or with any other type of powders that prove to
be position sensitive in the case for reliable ignition.

Filler just increases your pressure...

I also don't use mag primers in these reduced loads..

Small Rifle or Large Rifler primes have proven to more than up to the task
in any instance I have used them in...

And yes, I have experimented with Mag Rifle primers, Pistol Primers, Mag Pistol primers...
so I have compared them....and prefer Regular rifle primers....

I don't buy into the full case is best theory...

Seafire, certainly not anywhere near critical just the loonie coming out of me.

You can use trail boss for a subsonic load. I load it to get a 1100 feet per second quiet pig killer.

With 308, 7x57, 270 size cartridges using H4895 and VARGET at or below the 50% level I have often encountered the lack of complete ignition leaving kernels of powder in the bore and chamber after case extraction, at least with cast bullets. This may not be an issue with jacketed bullets.

I've had much success with AL-8 and reduced jacketed bullet loads. It was suggested that "Blue-dot data can be used" but since no one had experience with it I ventured out on my own. Keeping it in the 60-70% vicinity I have been able to duplicate much of Seafire's blue-dot data. Accuracy isn't always there with certain combinations, but when it is it sure is nice to have an accurate mild load to play with.

4198 is one of my favorites in the 06 family as well. My Whelen with exceed 250 gr factory velocities by more than 100 fps with a 260 gr pure lead slug with that powder. Haven't killed anything but rocks with it but it does a fine job at that out to 450 yards.

I like Blue Dot more than most for the exercise, but I'm dealing with small to low medium cap cases. 5.5 gr runs a 185 gr cast bullet from the Sneezer at a consistent 1050 fps. Same charge boots 320 grains from a .44 mag case in the 950 realm. So far nothing treated with this medicine has walked away.

I don't like the thought of using a powder charge small enough it could be doubled . How about LIL GUN ? Would it be fast enough powder to reduce the fireball to 1800- 2000 fps with a 55gr sp safely ?

Lil Gun is also a full-power powder in the Fireball, but it's far better for reducing than 4198. My brother's fastest, most accurate load in his FB with 55's uses Lil Gun.

Couple of ways to avoid the double charge problem. One is to use bulk powder such as SR4759, Trailboss, etc. Another is to visually inspect charged cases with a flashlight before seating the bullet. Li'l Gun is essentially a fine grain ball powder and requires inspection for reduced loads.

I've run a lot of loads of 36 grains of IMR4198 through a 270/130 combo. It works great.

For even less recoil, 13 grains of Red Dot.

36 grains of 4198 is what I found when I dissected a couple of Rem's Managed Recoil loads
in 270.. but I think they were using a 110 grain bullet instead...Sierra's...

but then again, that is a great load, if you need more range than the 30 grains of 4198 give ya...

I like the 30 grain load, as it is an easy number to remember, works on about any cartridge from
243 and up and bullet weight isn't an issue...

its easy on the brass for we handloaders also...

and either's accuracy is more than most folks would believe as they only usually buy it for their kids..

TAG

The LEE reloading manual has a good section on developing reduced loads.

I like 4198 for reduced loads. RL7 seems pretty good too. 3031, Varget, and 4895 have also worked well for me. For real light loads, 700x has worked well but I've only used it in the 35 Whelen, with 158's. 1100 fps and very accurate at 50 yd. GD

Turn off the "Caps lock" please

Why tag a 6+ year old thread and bring it back too life?

One thing the Chemo did was put a few holes in my memory. When it comes to reloading, that can be dangerous. I was rummaging around the cabinet the other day and found an unused pound of Blue Dot and could not figure out why it was there. I decided it was probably some hair-brained idea I'd picked up on the 'Campfire and started investigating. After 15 minutes, I found my way to some of Seafire's posts.

I TAGGED the ones that caught my interest.

I figure the Blue Dot came from reading about replicating various .22 loads in a .223 REM using Blue Dot. Specifically, I thought about seeing if a .22 Hornet was worth a try by simulating it.

As to this post, 4198 is very interesting to me. I've been using H4895 for nearly everything over the past 20 years. I got into it initially with the Garand, but soon had all my deer rifles using it. My sons grew up using H4895 in their deer rifles as well. H4895 has become expensive and hard to find. So I'm looking for alternatives.

Following - good information in this thread.

Because there is some good, still relevant information in it!

Go over to the Hodgdon site and read up on reduced loads using H4895. Then take a look at their 270 Win/130 gr load data.

I don't think this type of info goes "stale"

Just curious, can cast bullet data be used for jacketed bullets safely" ie: 3011, 5744. 4198?

I've used data for cast bullets, but you need to be careful about maintaining a minimum velocity. A non-bonded jacketed rifle or pistol bullet fired in a rifle can leave the jacket stuck in the barrel. I've shot jacketed bullets down to around 1,200 fps without problems. I wouldn't use a load that says you'll get less than that.

all day long....your pressures with the upper end loads, will only be in the 30,000 ish to 40,000 ish ranges with most of the cast bullet load manuals..

unless you know what you are doing, don't spend time seeing how slow you can go...

but people freaking out about getting a Squib load, to me is silly, unless someone is trying to get down to 300 to 500 fps...

Use your head for something besides a hat rack as my grand dad use to say...

<^>

I am looking for a reduced load for my Whelen to use for plinking and general off hand practice. I have 1500-2000 Sierra 180 357 bullets left over from my 357 Max shooting days and think they would work good for this. What I need is a powder load, something that will be under 2000fps to keep it mild. Hopefully the powder is one that can be bought now days.

If you have any IMR 4759, according to the Speer reloading manual, 24 gr., 130 gr bullet pushing at 2000 fps. I know the powder is discontinued, but there’s still some out there if you can find some.
https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/rifle/270_Winchester_130.pdf

This stuff is all very interesting to me. Making one gun do multiple jobs makes some guns obsolete though!

consult cast bullet manuals...plenty of info there...

what you are doing is not that odd of an application...

lots of people shoot 357 bullets out of 35 caliber rifles... 35 Remington, 356 and 358 Winchesters, 35 Whelen...

Might also mention that in 2018, a year after this old thread initially appeared, my Big Book of Gun Gack II was published, which has an entire chapter on reduced loads, including more details on much of the stuff that's been mentioned here, along with a bunch of loads for 20 cartridges from the .17 Hornady Hornet on up. It can be ordered from our website, www.riflesandrecipes.com.

A number of readers have told me there's some other useful information in GGII.