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Originally Posted by Starman
mass no direction, ok got it.

If I calculate [acceleration and mass] I am working out the 'Force' value.
(which results in Newtons and can be converted to ft/lb) 1 Newton = 0.737562149 ft/lb

with that, Does anyone then really need to apply an energy formula for hunting bullets?



If you would prefer a bullet with 2000 ft-lbs energy to one with 20 ft-lbs energy for hunting elk, you have answered your own question.

I don't recall anyone EVER stating that there is some value for energy that delineates the difference between a bullet being effective for a particular task and not being effective for that same task. Energy is just a tool that can be used to compare the maximum destructive potential of different bullets of indeterminate mass, velocity and construction, or the same bullet (which perforce has a particular mass and construction) at different velocities.

Energy is, at best, an imperfect tool but much better than using velocity alone (i.e. with no knowledge of bullet mass or construction).




Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 09/05/17. Reason: missing word added

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Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
.

Energy is, at best, an imperfect tool but much better than using velocity alone (i.e. with no knowledge of bullet mass or construction).






Why don't you just measure the hole it makes...?

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Gotta luv them Hoyt's!

Well done!

Thanks for sharing!


Last edited by Angus1895; 09/05/17.

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Originally Posted by Formidilosus
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
.

Energy is, at best, an imperfect tool but much better than using velocity alone (i.e. with no knowledge of bullet mass or construction).






Why don't you just measure the hole it makes...?




Hard to do before you shoot something.


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Originally Posted by Formidilosus
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
.

Energy is, at best, an imperfect tool but much better than using velocity alone (i.e. with no knowledge of bullet mass or construction).






Why don't you just measure the hole it makes...?


There is also the issue that while ft-lbs measures the maximum destructive capability ( a bullet cannot do more work than the energy it carries allows), measuring a wound channel measures the actual destruction in a very specific instance.


Relatively few hunters are reloaders and even fewer have access to the "properly calibrated tissue simulant" you advocate. Even fewer would be willing to shoot various bullets into such media at various velocities as it would be much too resource intensive.

Nor are such efforts required to get a reasonable estimate as to whether or not a bullet will be effective for a particular purpose.


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Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter

Nor are such efforts required to get a reasonable estimate as to whether or not a bullet will be effective for a particular purpose.




You can get a reasonable estimate that it will be affective because the manufacturers (generally) have already tested it. Every major manufacturer designs and tests their bullets in properaly calibrated ballistic gel.


"Maximum destructive capability" isn't actual. And people who actually kill things care about actual, not potential.

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Originally Posted by Formidilosus
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter

Nor are such efforts required to get a reasonable estimate as to whether or not a bullet will be effective for a particular purpose.




You can get a reasonable estimate that it will be affective because the manufacturers (generally) have already tested it. Every major manufacturer designs and tests their bullets in properaly calibrated ballistic gel.


"Maximum destructive capability" isn't actual. And people who actually kill things care about actual, not potential.


So a 60g Partition will be as effective as a 500g (or even a 150g or whatever) Partition at the same velocity because the manufacturer tested them in "properly calibrated ballistic gel" and both expanded at 1800fps?

Actual destruction caused by the bullet will ALWAYS be less than its maximum destructive capability as determined by the energy it carries. It cannot and never will be more. Energy only defines the upper limit. Efficient hunting bullets use a good percentage of that energy to do their destructive work.

That said, anyone that chooses a hunting bullet based on energy alone is as ignorant or foolish as someone that does it on velocity alone. Bullet construction and target type and amount play a huge role in how efficiently energy is transferred to a target.

The comparison of the 60g Partition to the 500g Partition is admittedly and intentionally extreme but it makes a point. Much less extreme is the comparison between a 110g AccuBond from my .257 Roberts at 3163fps (my load) and a 140g AccuBond at 2990fps from my .280 Rem (also one of my loads). A very reasonable question is "How do they compare at 400 and 500 yards?" Another is "What are their effective ranges?"

To answer the first question, the Roberts has 2440fpe at the muzzle, 1482fpe at 400 yards and 1297fpe at 500. The .280 Rem has 2776fpe at the muzzle, 1818 at 400 and 1616 at 500. Many people suggest 1500fpe as a reasonable minimum for elk. Accepting that would rule out the Roberts for ranges greater than 390 yards while the .280 Rem would be appropriate just past 560 yards.

(If you are reading this and planning to blast me for using the admittedly arbitrary 1500fpe, you may as well stop. 1500fpe is a common and convenient rule of thumb, nothing more.)

If you use Nosler's minimum “Optimum Performance Velocity” of 1800fps as the yardstick, the .257”/110g AB could be expected to perform “optimally” at ranges out to 845 yards, where its energy has dropped to 793 ft-lbs. The same logic would suggest the .284”/140g AB would be effective out to 890 yards where its energy would be 1008fpe. I won’t be choosing either for elk at those ranges.

Rather than use Nosler’s “Optimum Performance Velocity” as a primary gauge, I’ll stick with retained energy. It is more appropriate for my needs.






Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 09/07/17. Reason: added missing 1800fps

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I use the following rules of thumb.
Cup and core bulletin for elk are:

To help estimate maximum effective range:

Sectional Density grater than .250. As in 165 grain 308 or so......actually .248

Twice the foot pounds as the animal weighs in energy upon impact

1800 fps at impact.

Longest shot I have made 440 yards, 300 savage hornady 160 grain ftx loaded with lever evolution. This shot would have fallen out side of my rule of thumb parameters But it was not a huge bull, just a ordinary cow elk.

. But I think it is best over prescribe than under let the each , hunter decide for themselves as they gain experience.

Monolithic bullet can have less density as in perhaps 130 grain in a 308 caliber or so.


Should ideally have 2000 fps velocity upon impact

I have never calculated what the foot pounds would be.

Like you guys been saying if you know the sectional density and the caliber and the velocity, KE will be there 4 U.

But I have never shot an elk with that light an ordinance. When I have used monolithic bullets they have always been 180 grain on elk ( Barnes XLC 30 06. Maximum 400 yards.xox. ) They were awesome.

Last edited by Angus1895; 09/07/17.

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Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
...

Given two objects with equal momentum but a 10x difference in mass, which object will have the higher energy (and therefore destructive capability) level?

The correct answer is is that the lighter (by a factor of 10) object will have a velocity 10x greater to achieve the same momentum value and therefore 100 times more energy and destructive capability than the heavier object.
...


It is too late for me to go back and edit that post but my statement was in error. The lighter object will have 10x the energy of the heavier one, not 100x.

Fat finger error and inadequate proof reading.


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WOW! Just WOW!

The full retard runs very deep...


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Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter

Admit it or not, you use both velocity and mass an in your calculations - not velocity alone. Which means you are using energy calculations.


LOL, good to see you're posting up formulas CH. But you're still as FOS as a Christmas turkey. What the hell are you talking about when you say "your calculations?"

Which calculations would those be? The ones I never made or posted? Not everyone needs "calculations" to go hunting.

Speaking of people who don't need "calculations," congrats, Pat!! Are you gonna post a pic of that bull?



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Originally Posted by smokepole
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter

Admit it or not, you use both velocity and mass an in your calculations - not velocity alone. Which means you are using energy calculations.


LOL, good to see you're posting up formulas CH. But you're still as FOS as a Christmas turkey. What the hell are you talking about when you say "your calculations?"

Which calculations would those be? The ones I never made or posted? Not everyone needs "calculations" to go hunting.
...


You didn’t post any equations but when you choose a bullet for big game hunting you are clearly making the same mental calculations children make when throwing rocks – velocity isn’t the only thing that matters.

You say
Quote
“The .223 bullet doesn't make a big enough hole

How do you know that? I’ve seen .22 bullets create softball-sized exit holes at 400 yards where velocity should have been just over 1800fps (1832fps calculated). Just how big a hole do you need?

Either velocity is the only thing that matters, as you claim, or you have to take mass into consideration (your mental calculations), which is what you are doing. And in which case you are considering energy, not just velocity.

You also say
Quote
and the 500 is ridiculous. I'd use one somewhere in the middle that makes a big enough hole without the recoil of a 500 grain bullet.


Once again you are making the same kinds of calculations kids make when they decide to throw a mid-weight rock instead of a much heavier one.

And to answer your question from above, at 1800fps I’d definitely prefer a 500g Partition for elk over a 60g Partition at 1800fps. Same velocity, so if mass doesn’t matter they should be equally effective. But the lessons I learned as a kid suggest they will not be equally effective.

Otherwise, to quote you:
Quote
Velocity, Sherlock. If it depended on energy, there'd be a different velocity for each different weight of the same bullet.


You will notice that Nosler does NOT provide different velocities for the 60g and 500g Partitions because when Nosler talks about “Optimum Performance Velocity” Nosler is only talking about the velocities at which Partitions in general can be expected to expand, NOT how effective they will be for a particular game animal.

When Nosler makes recommendations as to the best use of their ammunition, their recommendation for the Partition for elk starts at a 140g from a .270 WBY. Apparently Nosler doesn’t feel that a 3,550fps 60g Partition is equal to a 180g Partition at a much more sedate 2,750fps. In other words, Nosler agrees – velocity is not the only thing that matters - mass matters as well.

I really don’t expect you to “get it” as you stated you don’t want to. Nothing like willful ignorance to mark a man as an idiot.


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LOL!

I bet if I look up "putz" in the dictionary there's a full page photo of you.

Wearing a sombrero.

And you're still as FOS as a Christmas turkey. I've never used "calculations" to decide which bullet to use. I know you can't fathom such a thing, but try to wrap your pointy little sombrero wearing head around that.

And seriously, kids throwing rocks? I was pretty good at throwing rocks as a kid, still am. But I never needed any "calculations" to do it.

I wouldn't be surprised if you whipped out a calculator every time you wanted to throw a rock but I'm thinking it didn't help any.



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Yes, kids throwing rocks. Or balls or whatever. They don’t think of it in terms of formal mathematical equations they have not yet learned, but they do learn to factor in mass as well as velocity and other factors. And if they are trying to hit something, they make mental calculations every time. If they didn’t they would throw Nerf balls the same as they do real balls of the same size and shape.

Just as adults choose when to hit the brakes on their vehicles. If velocity was all that mattered, you could drive a heavily loaded big rig like you would a BMW M series coupe. But even if you’ve done neither I’m guessing you wouldn’t try because you know the big rig would take longer to stop. You may make that calculation without thinking in terms of E=1/2*m*v*v but, just the same, you are making mental calculations that involve energy, not just velocity. Either that or you shouldn’t be driving – and wouldn’t be for long because you would soon be dead.

When you choose not to use a 60g Partition at 1800fps but go with a heavier bullet at the same velocity instead, you are once again making the same kind of calculations. If velocity was all that mattered the 60g would be just as effective and get the job done with less recoil.


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Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
Yes, kids throwing rocks. Or balls or whatever. They don’t think of it in terms of formal mathematical equations they have not yet learned, but they do learn to factor in mass as well as velocity and other factors. And if they are trying to hit something, they make mental calculations every time.



No they don't. Just like with everything else you pontificate on, you're taking one of the most basic phenomena in the human experience and over-complicating it, trying to explain it via "calculations."

It's just more mental masturbation.

Kids throwing rocks and adults throwing baseballs and footballs don't make "calculations" or even stop to think about it. If infielders had to think about it, there'd be no such thing as a double play.They just throw the damn things. In archery it's called instinctive shooting. "Instinctive" means no calculations, and not even any thought given to it. Just a reaction based on repeated practice and muscle memory. It really is that simple no matter how you try and complicate it. And it has nothing whatsoever to do with kinetic energy.


Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter

When you choose not to use a 60g Partition at 1800fps but go with a heavier bullet at the same velocity instead, you are once again making the same kind of calculations.


No, I'm not. I'm basing my decision on my own personal experience and the experience of others who've killed more elk than me. I know that blows your little mind, but try to follow along. If I was basing my choice on some sort of calculated energy figure I'd be shooting a magnum. I'm not.

I spent a lot of money on a guided Alaskan hunt for Dall Sheep. If I was ever going to base a bullet choice on "calculations" or some sort of energy figure, that would have been the hunt to do it on. But I didn't. I developed a very accurate load using a relatively light bullet in a mild chambering. What was more important was the rifle itself, its weight and accuracy and my ability to place a bullet with it. "Energy" never figured into the decision. And then I asked a guy who'd guided for sheep if he thought the bullet was suitable (he also posted on this thread) . He said it was and that was all I needed.

But if you want to use formulae and calculations to choose your bullet, knock yourself out. Just realize that not everyone thinks like you do. Thank goodness.



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Not complicating anything at all, just explaining what happens.

When you picked that bullet for your Dall hunt you say you didn't consider energy. Which means you think a BB at the same impact velocity would have sufficed as well?


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No. I asked the former sheep guide about bb's but he said they were no good.

Then he whipped out a calculator.

He punched in a few numbers and concluded you're a dumb ass.



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Isn't it amazing how we fight about all this chitt. And there are some real knowledgeable folk here.

Bubba, you know, the one everyone here makes fun of. Well ol' Bubba, he got him a Savage Axis in 06.
Then bought him some 180gr Corelocks, he got them mixed up with some 150gr Federals his buddy gave
him. Anyway with mixed loads Bubba, he shot him a deer and an elk. They are in his freezer, and he thinks
we are all full of sschitt.


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One of the best hunters I've ever known was a guy who bought a RCBS press and two sets of dies while he was still in high school in the 1950's. The dies were for the .250 Savage and .30-06, because the two centerfire rifles he owned were a .250-3000 Savage 99 and a "sporterized" South American Mauser in .30-06. Both had their original open sights.

He bought the cheapest 100-grain .25-caliber and 180-grain caliber bullets he could find in local sporting goods stores, and used the "middle" load of IMR4320 in his Speer manual. He was married to a woman who was an enrolled member of the Montana reservation they lived on, so could hunt big game on the rez under the same regs as tribal members. He also hunted coyotes, foxes and whatever other furbearers he could every winter, and every fall drove 600 miles across Montana to hunt elk near the Idaho panhandle, where he killed a bunch of 'em, usually with the .30-06 but sometimes with the .250. I hunted with him quite a bit, both in eastern and western Montana. Witnessed him killing deer at 150-200 yards, often running, and he always got an elk back when elk weren't nearly as abundant as they are today--and often several, because this was back when many hunters shot enough elk for everybody in camp, if they had a chance. He didn't really care much about trophy antlers but killed some big-antlered deer and elk anyway, because he loved to hunt, so hunted hard.

He never hunted outside Montana, where he was born, and was also the only handloader I've ever known who actually did it to save money. When he died, he was still using the same rifles, press and dies he'd purchased in high school, the press mounted on a 2x12 screwed down across the back of his livingroom closet. I don't believe he ever shot a group in his life other than when sighting-in his rifles the first time. After that they always shot right to the same place with the same charge of IMR4320 and the cheapest bullets he could buy.


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Great post, John.

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