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Originally Posted by 1OntarioJim
Seafire, where you refer to a load of 30 grains of 4198 is this with cast bullets or with c & c bullets?

I am interested because I want to develop a load for the 170 grain 30/30 bullet in the 30-06. Hornady data says these bullets can be driven up to 2500 fps. Where I hunt I use an elevated shooting house set about 60 to 70 yards from a bait station. I figure one of these bullets driven a little above 30/30 speeds should be a good killer without destroying a lot of meat.

At one time I developed a load with R15 powder but now the powder is gone as well as the loads I had made up. I haven't seen any R15 in at least 2 years or more.

Am also curious if I4895 powder can be used in reduced loads similar to H4895.

JIm


In my experience, IMRs 4895 can be used for the same formula as H 4895... in fact I prefer it personally

I don't care for H 4895 for a batch of reasons for reduced loads... but none of those reasons have to do with
concern for safety of the loads...

Hodgdon pushes H4895 loads for one reason and one reason only: they didn't develop the data.
it was GIVEN TO THEM by ADI.. and ADI developed it based on a request from the Australian Military
to have one powder to use from A to Z on cartridge size, plus that could be reduced load if economy
required it.

Since we are not talking using big cases here.. that is why I think ADI developed 4198 is preferrable
and doesn't have some of the traits of why I don't care for the H 4895 reduced loads...

IMR 4198 is essentially the same burn rate, not spot on, but close enough in the real world.
same with RL 7 actually.

TO JIM:

even tho a lot of that data is gleened from cast bullet load data and then worked up and down, it work just fine with
Jacketed Bullets...cast bullet data used has much lower pressure, so even tho you will obtain higher pressures with
non cast bullets, you are still nowhere approaching SAAMI max specs...

so a 170 grainer would be fine Jim, you're not pushing SAAMI specs, even moving your charge up to obtain
the 2500 fps you speak of... for those applications, I recommend a ballistic tip most of the time...they will open
up to about 1200 to 1300 fps reliably impact velocity.

Reduced loads are necessarily reduced pressure loads, just reduced velocity and recoil.


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Originally Posted by Seafire
...even tho a lot of that data is gleened from cast bullet load data and then worked up and down, it work just fine with
Jacketed Bullets...cast bullet data used has much lower pressure, so even tho you will obtain higher pressures with
non cast bullets, you are still nowhere approaching SAAMI max specs...

Are you sure about that? J.B. has written that jacketed bullets produced less pressure than cast bullets since cast bullets bump up to fill the bore more completely.

I believe he's also written about this same idea in a Handloader article or two...


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Seafire,

Do you mind explaining the reasons you don't care for reduce loads using H4895? I'd be very interesting in hear your reasons as I'm looking to use H4895 for reduce loads in my 308win. Thanks!

Leo

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I've used 4895 be it IMR or H for more more years than I care to remember for most of my cast loadings in many chamberings and for a bushel of jacketeted reduced youth loads in 243,6.5x55 and 7x57 ..it's safe yet still produces enough pressure to dispatch deer sized game easily with the added benefit of lighter recoil.


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I agree with Seafire. In cases up to the 30-06 case in volume, 4198 works great. I've had better luck with the IMR version. Cast bullets 170-230 gr perform well in the 30-06. A 311299 version at 215 grains in ww quenched gives me right at 2000fps and the smallest groups my Rem 700 produces at 100yds. Lighter bullets 150-110gr both cast and jacketed I use Unique or 2400 in 30-06.

The old 13 grains of Red Dot load would likely work well in the 270 under 130's, and I'm sure Unique or Blue Dot or 2400 could be used to good effect by a prudent and knowledgeable loader, but 4198 would provide a larger margin of error in finding safe starting charges, and of course Hodgdon has Trail Boss and the reduced data with H4895. AA5744 is pushed as a good reducing powder by the manufacturer, and my results have been great with it in several cases, but they want the Lord's good fortune for a lb of it.

Reduced load workup has really been my thing the last few years. I now cast the majority of bullets I shoot, and saving on powder has allowed me to shoot that much more.


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Thanks Seafire you been lots of help on this

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Originally Posted by Azar
Originally Posted by Seafire
...even tho a lot of that data is gleened from cast bullet load data and then worked up and down, it work just fine with
Jacketed Bullets...cast bullet data used has much lower pressure, so even tho you will obtain higher pressures with
non cast bullets, you are still nowhere approaching SAAMI max specs...

Are you sure about that? J.B. has written that jacketed bullets produced less pressure than cast bullets since cast bullets bump up to fill the bore more completely.

I believe he's also written about this same idea in a Handloader article or two...


Well in the scope of things, it doesn't matter...

these cast bullet loads are producing pressure way under SAAMI specs, so they are safe either way...


"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC

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Originally Posted by leomort
Seafire,

Do you mind explaining the reasons you don't care for reduce loads using H4895? I'd be very interesting in hear your reasons as I'm looking to use H4895 for reduce loads in my 308win. Thanks!

Leo


Sure Leo, I usually get flamed, but what the hell.. its the campfire...

Two major reasons actually....

Hodgdon's version is not as consistent as IMRs version..
What I mean, is that you can find a tack driver load with Hodgdon's, and then up or down a tenth of
a grain, and you can see accurate degrade... at least by my observations or desires..

IMR's version doesn't do that from my observations...so therefore that is the reason I prefer
IMRs version for my own personal use, If I am using a 4895...

Second major reason is retort, or KaBoom when you pull the trigger. It usually won't bother
most guys, but I load a lot of reduced loads for kids, to include many boy scouts in the 12 to 14
year old range especially.. the extra noise intimidates more than just a few of them.

it actually seems the retort is louder with the reduced load, than those approaching full power
loads with H 4895... Just my opinion and observation... and many present agreed with me..

Doing loads that are reduced recoil loads, it is the same thing for women... they perceive more
recoil, but in actuality it is just a louder noise when you pull the trigger...

finally with the 60% rule, Hodgdon pushes that powder for that application because ADI developed the
load data for them... not Hodgdon...and also did the testing and pressure readings...

For those types of loads, I have found 4198 is a much more applicable powder for the job.
Either IMRs or Hodgdon's.... IMR is the more accurate of the two, but H4198 is certainly usable
RL 7 is another good powder for the application...

Right now have been practicing and playing with reduced loads with H 322..
Particularly in the 223, developing another Ingwe style Bunny Load alternative.

15 grains of H 322 at 100 yds, is actually proving to a hare ( snicker) more accurate
than the 4198 loads were...at least out of the Rem ADL test mule rifle, whose barrel is a high
miler...its easily minute of bunny head at 100 yds...

Hope that at least explains my thoughts on the subject..and I am sure there are plenty of guys
who might disagree with me...but I spend a lot of time playing with this stuff...so opinions do
form...

cheers and best regards


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Originally Posted by savage62
Thanks Seafire you been lots of help on this


My pleasure... always more than happy to assist another campfire member anytime..

cheers and best regards


"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC

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Thank you also this is just what I wanted to learn. I happen to have I4198 and I4895 on hand and my H4895 is nearly gone. I have a couple of hundred 170 grain Hornady bullets on the shelf so I should be able to easily find something suitable to try for this Fall.

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15.0 grains of Unique gives great accuracy in my .35 Whelen with cast bullets weighing 200-215 grains.

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Thank you, Seafire, for your explanation! Much appreciated.

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Originally Posted by Seafire
Second major reason is retort, or KaBoom when you pull the trigger. It usually won't bother
most guys, but I load a lot of reduced loads for kids, to include many boy scouts in the 12 to 14
year old range especially.. the extra noise intimidates more than just a few of them.

it actually seems the retort is louder with the reduced load, than those approaching full power
loads with H 4895... Just my opinion and observation... and many present agreed with me..



I've been dinking around with reduced loads for trigger practice, and that's been my experience as well. I find the same with 5744. I haven't tried 4198 (yet) though. Do you find the report less?


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I don't know about Seafire, but in all the reduced loads I've tried using IMR 4198, the report has been pretty mild. I use it in 223 under cast 60gr bullets for about 2200fps, in 243 with 70gr bullets for the mid 2000's, in 30-30 with 175 cast bullets for 1600-1800, in 30-06 for bullets 175-230gr. In all cases, in rifle-length bbls, the powder seems to get consumed well before the muzzle. Handgun powders produce less noise than the 4198.


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I recently played with some H4895 reduced loads, and thought they were unusually loud too. That was one of the reasons I stopped messing with them.
H4895 wasn't a listed powder for my 221 case which is supposed to be a no no , but I looked at alot of 222 data and judged what I thought was a safe starting point. H4198 is the powder I've been using for my go to fireball load, so it'd be cool to use it for this app as well.

Seafire, Are you using the same x .6 of max load reduced load formula when using H4198? Is there anything special to consider when reducing loads in small cases like the fireball?

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In the Fireball, 4895 is too slow,and 4198 isn't a reduced load powder....


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Originally Posted by RevMike
Originally Posted by Seafire
Second major reason is retort, or KaBoom when you pull the trigger. It usually won't bother
most guys, but I load a lot of reduced loads for kids, to include many boy scouts in the 12 to 14
year old range especially.. the extra noise intimidates more than just a few of them.

it actually seems the retort is louder with the reduced load, than those approaching full power
loads with H 4895... Just my opinion and observation... and many present agreed with me..



I've been dinking around with reduced loads for trigger practice, and that's been my experience as well. I find the same with 5744. I haven't tried 4198 (yet) though. Do you find the report less?


As state above Reverend.... 4198 is a lot less of a report...

I've got some 7 x 57 rounds loaded up for deer season here...30 grains of IMR 4198
and 139 grainSP Hornadys...


"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC

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Originally Posted by HuntnShoot
In the Fireball, 4895 is too slow,and 4198 isn't a reduced load powder....


Grovey,

this right here....

actually 4895 is a reduced velocity and pressure load in the Fireball...
it'll still make it go bang...

4198 is within its burn rate...

With 4198, I am NOT using a 60-%rule with this powder...

Actually I use older reload manuals, cast bullet manuals and the old IMR Brown Sheet
reloading data for what is max per each cartridge...

For reduced load fun, a Lyman Cast bullet manual, new or if you are cheap like
some of us are accused of... check out used book stores...

I've picked up a batch of older Speer Manuals in them and actually
found both a Nosler # 1 and #2 in used books stores...

I did give away the Nosler #1 I had to someone who wanted it real bad...

Because I ended up getting one given to me when someone passed
it was given to him, by John Nosler, as Mr Price had grown up and went
to school with Bob Nosler, before they relocated the company from
Ashland OR to Bend...

Old manuals can be your friend, if one doesn't get too crazy with them.


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Originally Posted by leomort
Thank you, Seafire, for your explanation! Much appreciated.

Leo


My pleasure Leo.

cheers and best regards


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Originally Posted by Seafire
As state above Reverend.... 4198 is a lot less of a report...

I've got some 7 x 57 rounds loaded up for deer season here...30 grains of IMR 4198
and 139 grainSP Hornadys...


Thanks, SF. I'm going to pick some up and give it a try. Have you used 4198 with 100-110 grain bullets, just for plinking?


"An archer sees how far he can be from a target and still hit it, a bowhunter sees how close he can get before he shoots." It is certainly easy to use that same line of thinking with firearms. -- Unknown
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