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#12266193 - 09/12/17 Re: REDUCE LOADS [Re: savage62]  
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Azar Offline
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Originally Posted by Seafire
...even tho a lot of that data is gleened from cast bullet load data and then worked up and down, it work just fine with
Jacketed Bullets...cast bullet data used has much lower pressure, so even tho you will obtain higher pressures with
non cast bullets, you are still nowhere approaching SAAMI max specs...

Are you sure about that? J.B. has written that jacketed bullets produced less pressure than cast bullets since cast bullets bump up to fill the bore more completely.

I believe he's also written about this same idea in a Handloader article or two...


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#12266228 - 09/12/17 Re: REDUCE LOADS [Re: Seafire]  
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leomort Offline
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Seafire,

Do you mind explaining the reasons you don't care for reduce loads using H4895? I'd be very interesting in hear your reasons as I'm looking to use H4895 for reduce loads in my 308win. Thanks!

Leo

#12266330 - 09/12/17 Re: REDUCE LOADS [Re: savage62]  
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FlyboyFlem Offline
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I've used 4895 be it IMR or H for more more years than I care to remember for most of my cast loadings in many chamberings and for a bushel of jacketeted reduced youth loads in 243,6.5x55 and 7x57 ..it's safe yet still produces enough pressure to dispatch deer sized game easily with the added benefit of lighter recoil.


You better be afraid of a ghost!!

"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops






Woody
#12266365 - 09/12/17 Re: REDUCE LOADS [Re: savage62]  
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HuntnShoot Offline
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I agree with Seafire. In cases up to the 30-06 case in volume, 4198 works great. I've had better luck with the IMR version. Cast bullets 170-230 gr perform well in the 30-06. A 311299 version at 215 grains in ww quenched gives me right at 2000fps and the smallest groups my Rem 700 produces at 100yds. Lighter bullets 150-110gr both cast and jacketed I use Unique or 2400 in 30-06.

The old 13 grains of Red Dot load would likely work well in the 270 under 130's, and I'm sure Unique or Blue Dot or 2400 could be used to good effect by a prudent and knowledgeable loader, but 4198 would provide a larger margin of error in finding safe starting charges, and of course Hodgdon has Trail Boss and the reduced data with H4895. AA5744 is pushed as a good reducing powder by the manufacturer, and my results have been great with it in several cases, but they want the Lord's good fortune for a lb of it.

Reduced load workup has really been my thing the last few years. I now cast the majority of bullets I shoot, and saving on powder has allowed me to shoot that much more.


I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
#12266487 - 09/12/17 Re: REDUCE LOADS [Re: savage62]  
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savage62 Offline
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Thanks Seafire you been lots of help on this

Alpha

#12266504 - 09/12/17 Re: REDUCE LOADS [Re: Azar]  
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Seafire Offline
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Originally Posted by Azar
Originally Posted by Seafire
...even tho a lot of that data is gleened from cast bullet load data and then worked up and down, it work just fine with
Jacketed Bullets...cast bullet data used has much lower pressure, so even tho you will obtain higher pressures with
non cast bullets, you are still nowhere approaching SAAMI max specs...

Are you sure about that? J.B. has written that jacketed bullets produced less pressure than cast bullets since cast bullets bump up to fill the bore more completely.

I believe he's also written about this same idea in a Handloader article or two...


Well in the scope of things, it doesn't matter...

these cast bullet loads are producing pressure way under SAAMI specs, so they are safe either way...


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#12266539 - 09/12/17 Re: REDUCE LOADS [Re: leomort]  
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Seafire Offline
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Originally Posted by leomort
Seafire,

Do you mind explaining the reasons you don't care for reduce loads using H4895? I'd be very interesting in hear your reasons as I'm looking to use H4895 for reduce loads in my 308win. Thanks!

Leo


Sure Leo, I usually get flamed, but what the hell.. its the campfire...

Two major reasons actually....

Hodgdon's version is not as consistent as IMRs version..
What I mean, is that you can find a tack driver load with Hodgdon's, and then up or down a tenth of
a grain, and you can see accurate degrade... at least by my observations or desires..

IMR's version doesn't do that from my observations...so therefore that is the reason I prefer
IMRs version for my own personal use, If I am using a 4895...

Second major reason is retort, or KaBoom when you pull the trigger. It usually won't bother
most guys, but I load a lot of reduced loads for kids, to include many boy scouts in the 12 to 14
year old range especially.. the extra noise intimidates more than just a few of them.

it actually seems the retort is louder with the reduced load, than those approaching full power
loads with H 4895... Just my opinion and observation... and many present agreed with me..

Doing loads that are reduced recoil loads, it is the same thing for women... they perceive more
recoil, but in actuality it is just a louder noise when you pull the trigger...

finally with the 60% rule, Hodgdon pushes that powder for that application because ADI developed the
load data for them... not Hodgdon...and also did the testing and pressure readings...

For those types of loads, I have found 4198 is a much more applicable powder for the job.
Either IMRs or Hodgdon's.... IMR is the more accurate of the two, but H4198 is certainly usable
RL 7 is another good powder for the application...

Right now have been practicing and playing with reduced loads with H 322..
Particularly in the 223, developing another Ingwe style Bunny Load alternative.

15 grains of H 322 at 100 yds, is actually proving to a hare ( snicker) more accurate
than the 4198 loads were...at least out of the Rem ADL test mule rifle, whose barrel is a high
miler...its easily minute of bunny head at 100 yds...

Hope that at least explains my thoughts on the subject..and I am sure there are plenty of guys
who might disagree with me...but I spend a lot of time playing with this stuff...so opinions do
form...

cheers and best regards


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#12266542 - 09/12/17 Re: REDUCE LOADS [Re: savage62]  
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Seafire Offline
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Originally Posted by savage62
Thanks Seafire you been lots of help on this


My pleasure... always more than happy to assist another campfire member anytime..

cheers and best regards


Hillary Clinton In 2013: “I Would Like To See People Like Donald Trump Run For Office; They’re Honest And Can’t Be Bought”

#12266979 - 09/12/17 Re: REDUCE LOADS [Re: Seafire]  
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1OntarioJim Offline
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Thank you also this is just what I wanted to learn. I happen to have I4198 and I4895 on hand and my H4895 is nearly gone. I have a couple of hundred 170 grain Hornady bullets on the shelf so I should be able to easily find something suitable to try for this Fall.

Jim

#12267231 - 09/13/17 Re: REDUCE LOADS [Re: savage62]  
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gunswizard Online content
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15.0 grains of Unique gives great accuracy in my .35 Whelen with cast bullets weighing 200-215 grains.

Bravo

#12267319 - 09/13/17 Re: REDUCE LOADS [Re: Seafire]  
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leomort Offline
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Thank you, Seafire, for your explanation! Much appreciated.

Leo

#12267396 - 09/13/17 Re: REDUCE LOADS [Re: Seafire]  
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RevMike Offline
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Originally Posted by Seafire
Second major reason is retort, or KaBoom when you pull the trigger. It usually won't bother
most guys, but I load a lot of reduced loads for kids, to include many boy scouts in the 12 to 14
year old range especially.. the extra noise intimidates more than just a few of them.

it actually seems the retort is louder with the reduced load, than those approaching full power
loads with H 4895... Just my opinion and observation... and many present agreed with me..



I've been dinking around with reduced loads for trigger practice, and that's been my experience as well. I find the same with 5744. I haven't tried 4198 (yet) though. Do you find the report less?


“I’ve never known an outdoorsman who owned all the gear he thought he needed. Even if he owns it, the odds are that he can’t find it.” -- Charlie Dickey
#12267656 - 09/13/17 Re: REDUCE LOADS [Re: savage62]  
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HuntnShoot Offline
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I don't know about Seafire, but in all the reduced loads I've tried using IMR 4198, the report has been pretty mild. I use it in 223 under cast 60gr bullets for about 2200fps, in 243 with 70gr bullets for the mid 2000's, in 30-30 with 175 cast bullets for 1600-1800, in 30-06 for bullets 175-230gr. In all cases, in rifle-length bbls, the powder seems to get consumed well before the muzzle. Handgun powders produce less noise than the 4198.


I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
#12267832 - 09/13/17 Re: REDUCE LOADS [Re: savage62]  
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grovey Online content
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I recently played with some H4895 reduced loads, and thought they were unusually loud too. That was one of the reasons I stopped messing with them.
H4895 wasn't a listed powder for my 221 case which is supposed to be a no no , but I looked at alot of 222 data and judged what I thought was a safe starting point. H4198 is the powder I've been using for my go to fireball load, so it'd be cool to use it for this app as well.

Seafire, Are you using the same x .6 of max load reduced load formula when using H4198? Is there anything special to consider when reducing loads in small cases like the fireball?

Last edited by grovey; 09/13/17.
#12267973 - 09/13/17 Re: REDUCE LOADS [Re: savage62]  
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HuntnShoot Offline
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In the Fireball, 4895 is too slow,and 4198 isn't a reduced load powder....


I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
#12269219 - 09/13/17 Re: REDUCE LOADS [Re: RevMike]  
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Seafire Offline
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Originally Posted by RevMike
Originally Posted by Seafire
Second major reason is retort, or KaBoom when you pull the trigger. It usually won't bother
most guys, but I load a lot of reduced loads for kids, to include many boy scouts in the 12 to 14
year old range especially.. the extra noise intimidates more than just a few of them.

it actually seems the retort is louder with the reduced load, than those approaching full power
loads with H 4895... Just my opinion and observation... and many present agreed with me..



I've been dinking around with reduced loads for trigger practice, and that's been my experience as well. I find the same with 5744. I haven't tried 4198 (yet) though. Do you find the report less?


As state above Reverend.... 4198 is a lot less of a report...

I've got some 7 x 57 rounds loaded up for deer season here...30 grains of IMR 4198
and 139 grainSP Hornadys...


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#12269222 - 09/13/17 Re: REDUCE LOADS [Re: HuntnShoot]  
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Seafire Offline
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Originally Posted by HuntnShoot
In the Fireball, 4895 is too slow,and 4198 isn't a reduced load powder....


Grovey,

this right here....

actually 4895 is a reduced velocity and pressure load in the Fireball...
it'll still make it go bang...

4198 is within its burn rate...

With 4198, I am NOT using a 60-%rule with this powder...

Actually I use older reload manuals, cast bullet manuals and the old IMR Brown Sheet
reloading data for what is max per each cartridge...

For reduced load fun, a Lyman Cast bullet manual, new or if you are cheap like
some of us are accused of... check out used book stores...

I've picked up a batch of older Speer Manuals in them and actually
found both a Nosler # 1 and #2 in used books stores...

I did give away the Nosler #1 I had to someone who wanted it real bad...

Because I ended up getting one given to me when someone passed
it was given to him, by John Nosler, as Mr Price had grown up and went
to school with Bob Nosler, before they relocated the company from
Ashland OR to Bend...

Old manuals can be your friend, if one doesn't get too crazy with them.


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#12269223 - 09/13/17 Re: REDUCE LOADS [Re: leomort]  
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Seafire Offline
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Originally Posted by leomort
Thank you, Seafire, for your explanation! Much appreciated.

Leo


My pleasure Leo.

cheers and best regards


Hillary Clinton In 2013: “I Would Like To See People Like Donald Trump Run For Office; They’re Honest And Can’t Be Bought”

#12269477 - 09/14/17 Re: REDUCE LOADS [Re: Seafire]  
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RevMike Offline
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Originally Posted by Seafire
As state above Reverend.... 4198 is a lot less of a report...

I've got some 7 x 57 rounds loaded up for deer season here...30 grains of IMR 4198
and 139 grainSP Hornadys...


Thanks, SF. I'm going to pick some up and give it a try. Have you used 4198 with 100-110 grain bullets, just for plinking?


“I’ve never known an outdoorsman who owned all the gear he thought he needed. Even if he owns it, the odds are that he can’t find it.” -- Charlie Dickey
#12270351 - 09/14/17 Re: REDUCE LOADS [Re: RevMike]  
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Seafire Offline
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Southern Oregon USA
Originally Posted by RevMike
Originally Posted by Seafire
As state above Reverend.... 4198 is a lot less of a report...

I've got some 7 x 57 rounds loaded up for deer season here...30 grains of IMR 4198
and 139 grainSP Hornadys...


Thanks, SF. I'm going to pick some up and give it a try. Have you used 4198 with 100-110 grain bullets, just for plinking?



Quite frequently......

I've used the 115 grain HP Speer for deer in the past....30/30 ranges and many blacktail
are antelope sized...

but a 210 lb Big Bruzer presented himself one morning at about 8 AM, as under 50 yds

a 115 grain HP right thru the heart dropped him like a sack of potatoes...

That load was fueled by 28 grain of SR 4759 if memory serves me correctly.....

I do a lot of that stuff with a lot of my rifles... makes it enjoyable to shoot them at the range
or out in the woods plinking with them... and most of those loads are pretty darn accurate.
but also more up to killing power than people give them credit for...

Those loads with the lighter bullets don't kick more than a 223/ 22.250
and certainly less than a factory 243 load.


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#12270647 - 09/14/17 Re: REDUCE LOADS [Re: savage62]  
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Joe Offline
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Seafire, Do you know what the velocity is with the 30 grs. 4198/139 Hornady and 28 grs. 4759/115 Speer?
I have used 20 grs. 4759 and Lyman's 284308 GC bullet (160 grs.) for 1724 fps with fair accuracy but, the really fun load is 10 grains Unique and Lyman's 287346 GC (130 grs.) for 1327 fps. That last load gives squirrel head accuracy to 50 yards and it's fun, fun, fun. grin

Last edited by Joe; 09/14/17.
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