Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Copper Fouled Barrel

Looking for a "Homemade" solution to eliminate copper streaks from my rifle bore.

Use a nice safe product like Butch's which won't hurt you or the barrel. Don't try to reinvent the wheel, bore cleaner just doesn't cost enough to worry about.

Agree with not going with homemade solutions.

There are a number of good copper solvents that are proven and safe.

If copper fouling is a problem, look into Dyna Bore Coating. Lots of stuff about it here on the Fire.

DF

Why would you want to do that?

Yup.

Most copper cleaners contain ammonia, if you try to brew it up on your own using ammonia you can get it too strong and have the potential for really screwing up something. Just spend the $10 for some real copper remover.

Ordered the Butch's Bore shine again, just that I ran out. Thanks, Campfire. Love you guys!

Wipe Out / Patch Out plus a bottle of accelerator is the best I've found so far. Doesn't smell bad or burn your nostrils and a bottle of each solution lasts a long time.

WipeOut is the cat's ass... best and easiest stuff ever.

Wipe Out is what I use.

A mixture of 35% janitorial ammonia (Ace Hardware, 10%) and 65 % cheap liquid detergent is functionally the same as Sweet's 7.62.

The mixture is very simple, and there is no reason that you can't make your own--no magic involved.

Wipe Out here too. If I'm short on time I'll use BoreTech eliminator.

I have been using Sweets for over 20 years with complete satisfaction.

I'm a Patch-Out convert. I use a foam bore swab to froth it up.

Shoot cast bullets

I like them both, Patch Out, too.

DF

Patch Out or Montana Extreme. If it's really bad JB Compound on a patch wrapped around a bristle brush.


Casey

I use the Butch's till the gray color no longer comes out.
Then I go to Sweet's until the blue/copper no longer comes out.
Don't let Sweets set for more that 10-15 minutes before clean patch. Reapply as needed.

That's why I quit using Sweet's a good while back. I use Montana X that I don't have to babysit.

Good advice on removing the copper.

Now, anyone use one of the Copper fouling eraser powders and been happy with the results? Does that stuff really work?

Been wondering the same thing. Picked up some of the IMR Enduron powders to try out, but haven't had the chance to use any yet.

1. Forget about the 'homemade' idea.
2. Wipe-Out is a great product for quickly and thoroughly removing copper residue.
3. Give your barrel a thorough cleaning and apply Dyna Bore Coat to minimize fouling in the future.

I've treated all my barrels with Dyna Bore Coat and use Wipe-Out for cleaning, and have not used a bronze brush in years. I prefer wearing out my barrels with shooting.

Jim,

Yes, decoppering agents work, and have for over a century now. Dunno why they're just now become the fashion in more powders.

Just cleaned 6mm rifle the other day that had been fired over 150 times without cleaning, using IMR4451. It took two patches to get the minimal amount of powder fouling out, but there wasn't a trace of copper.

+1 on all counts.

DF

IMR7977 did reduce the time needed to clean a fouling mutha of a 243.........

Not by a huge amount, but I did use a few less patches than I usually have to when using H4831.

BUT.......interestingly, RL26 cleans about as easy as IMR7977.

Casey

26 also has a decoppering agent.

The effectiveness of decoppering agents depends on the bore diameter, charge-to-bore ratio, bullet bearing surface and how much the individual barrel tends to foul. Among other things.

Do guys think cleaning with Wipe Out or Patch out is sufficient to get to bare metal prior to applying Dyna Bore Coat?

Well then, that explains it!

Casey

Yes, but how much it takes will depend on the bore and fouling.

No.

Mule Deer has recommended a number of times, and it's been my experience, JB compound is still the best bet at getting ALL the copper out.



Casey

Montana X Copper Killer works very well and no need to baby sit. Wipe Out/Patch Out also works well but takes longer. If I am going to get to bare metal I take my time and use Wipe Out/Patch Out then check with Copper Killer if that comes out clean I know I am to bare metal. If even slightly blue I repeat with Wipe Out/Patch Out .

Ammonia damaged muzzle

I used Sweets 762, Butch's Bore shine, and lots of other Ammonia based solvents.
The stuff is slow and eats steel.

Then I got a system that works every time in 15 minutes [Loosely based on the Walt Berger system]:
1) powder solvent on patch
2) dry patch
3) KG12 on a patch [Non Ammonia Copper solvent that will dissolve a Copper bullet but does not etch steel]
4) dry patch
5) 20 strokes with Bronze brush with diameter greater than barrel groove diameter [keep checking. The brush can wear out in a dozen strokes], coated in [Kroil + Flitz] or [Darrell Holland Witches Brew]
6) Alcohol on patch
7) dry patch
8) Check muzzle with magnification and flashlight for Copper, repeat process if needed.


Then I discovered Copper fouling inhibiting powder:
IMR-4451 [temp compensated stick], IMR-4166 [temp compensated stick], CFE 223 [ not temp compensated ball, hard for primer to set off, but high performance]
Before the new powders, I had some Copper fouling in 15 rounds. Now I can build a rifle with a custom barrel, sight it in at long range, kill and deer, and all in less than 50 rounds with no Copper fouling.

ClarkM

I hope my barrel doesn't end up like the photo. How long had the barrel in the photo been subjected to ammonia? I don't see any rifling!

Dang those ammonia-based cleaners!

You can also just install Dyna Bore-Coat, which slows copper build-up by at least 80%, and sometimes eliminates it complete. Plus, it seals the bore against moisture, ammonia, etc., so even if you decide on of those traditional ammonia/water solvents is necessary, it won't do any damage. Even if there's no copper to dissolve in the first place....

Sweet's overnight.

If you read this 2007 thread that goes on 4 pages, you will see me talk Kombayotch into including KG-12 into his Copper solvent testing.
It wins

https://forum.snipershide.com/forum/sniper%C2%92s-hide%C2%AE-armory-supply/sniper-hide-gunsmithing/689-our-own-copper-carbon-solvent-test

This is the test he was replicating.
https://www.eabco.com/KG12Test.pdf

He later replicated temp stable powder testing. The guy is good. Last I saw his day job was designing strain gauges in Canada and was a moderator at Canadian Guns forum.

Hard to believe that people are still using antiquated (water based) Sweets when (oil based) Montana Xtreme is better. You can leave it in your barrel overnight and then some. It's all I use.

This test compares Montana Extreme to other Copper solvents.
http://www.coretacsolutions.com/products_KG_KG12_TEST.htm

Too bad they didn't include Wipe Out in that test.

There are also user reports on this very site of cleaning actual barrels where KG12 isn't "all that" either.

Wipeout or KG 12 is all I use anymore. I put a drop of KG12 on a copper penny and it ate away all the markings on one side of it.

Interesting that whoever ran that test used Barnes XLC bullets, which had a blue anti-fouling coating. They were discontinued years ago, after the TSX appeared.

I've performed tests with several of the solvents listed, but instead of somehow figuring out how many grains of copper they removed, I looked inside the barrel with my Hawkeye bore-scope to see how much copper remained--if any. And I didn't just clean a single rifle, instead trying the solvents in 2-3 rifles. My results often varied considerably from those in the test.

It gets good reviews on MidwayUSA. Just checked, since that comparison's test results for KG12 seem too good to be true. That's the trouble with online user reports though. You almost always find reported experiences 180 degrees out from each other. Most annoying that, and terminal bullet performance is the one that comes to mind as the most frequent and frustrating example.

The KG12 makes a path for the Kroil to creep under the Copper, so the tight fitting Bronze brush can peel strips off.
The 8mm brush wears out quickly and becomes a 308 brush that wears out quickly and becomes a 7mm brush.

You're looking at the "face" of the muzzle - not down the bore.

Thank you, Mark, at first glance I was deceived. I need to read the thread more slowly, a downfall of my youth.

fully clean and then MOLY coat your bullets!

Accelerator, wipeout/patchout until barrel is perfectly clean, then dyna bore coat. Range session with rifle, then repeat process including the bore coat and you should be good to go for a long time.

You're saying apply Dyna Bore Coat twice? Does it work better that way?


Casey

The rifles I've coated, I've only coated once. Thought one coat was good for thousands of rounds before re-coat.

Do these anti fowling powders help if there is already copper in the bore? If I wanted to clean to bare steel would firing a dozen of the anti copper powder loads help remove any copper?

No, they will not remove copper. They are to use after you get your barrel clean.

They can definitely remove copper that's already there. But as I stated earlier in this thread, decoppering agent effectiveness depends on the individual bore, powder charge, etc.

The two common decoppering agents used today are bismuth and tin. (Lead works too, but I don't know of any powder company that adds lead anymore.) They work by forming an amalgam with copper during the pressure and heat of firing, and the hot gas blows the amalgam out the bore. Hence there's no reason for them not to work on an already copper-fouled bore, and in fact I've seen it a number of times.

Here's a response to the OP's query about home-brew solutions to eliminate copper from barrels, with some side comment on ammonia causing damage to steel:

About a hundred years ago participants in rifle matches had some real fouling problems. Lumps of copper-alloy from bullet jackets would form in their barrels, and accuracy would decline drastically. At then end of a day's shooting, knowing that ammonia would dissolve this fouling they would put a stopper in the chamber and from the muzzle fill the barrel with ammonia solution. They would let the rifle stand overnight. In the morning they would drain out the now dark blue liquid and patch the barrel to dryness. This routine removed most of the fouling.

They quickly learned that this treatment could cause rust at the muzzle. The cause of the rust was NOT the ammonia. Ammonia in solution does not "eat steel". If ammonia did so, the inside of their barrels would have rusted. Rather, the rust at the muzzle resulted from atmospheric oxygen dissolving into the thin layer of liquid left on the muzzle face and a very short way into the solution in the bore. The steel rusted from the oxygenated water, not from ammonia.

To prevent muzzle rust the old-time shooters would stretch a length of rubber tubing over the muzzle and fill the barrel and the tube with ammonia solution. Oxygen in the air that dissolved into solution at the open end of the rubber tube did not have time overnight to diffuse down the tube to the muzzle to cause rust.

Relevant to this, my bottle of Sweet's ammonia bore cleaner came with a couple of instructions. Firstly, to leave the solution in the bore at most for 15 minutes, and secondly, not to shake the bottle before using. After 15 minutes, sufficient atmospheric oxygen can diffuse through the wet layer in the bore to begin to cause rust. Shaking would oxygenate the solution even before it was applied to the metal, enabling rust to form immediately upon application.

So, if one is aware of the problems of using ammonia solutions to remove copper from barrels, a "home brew" is simply some ammonia solution. Household ammonia is commonly 3% w/w. The old-timers used "stronger ammonia", which is about 27% w/w, and is available on line, if not in local stores. It's possible to purchase saturated solutions of ammonia, but that stuff is not user friendly.

Finally, one can actually make home-brew ammonia solutions. For example, during the Spanish-American war soldiers in Cuba encountered metallic fouling in their barrels, but ammonia solutions to remove it were scarce. So, they peed in bottles and let rot, minimizing contact with the atmosphere. The end result was a nice smelly solution of ammonia, which apparently did an OK job of removing copper.

--Bob

Ain't so, they will indeed remove fouling already present, and help minimize additional fouling.