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Been giving this thread some thought and decided to apply what I've been preaching. One hand, 50 yard shooting from the bullseye stance is my personal crucible because whatever I do right or wrong, in applying the fundamentals, is magnified exponentially. I've got a tuned Ruger Vaquero 45 that is my deadliest 50 yard handgun and and an old nickel Colt 1911 that is nearly as good. I decided instead to use a '97 vintage Glock 22 I picked up about a week ago. It's entirely stock with plastic sights and a 6 ½ pound trigger. Marksmanship fundamentals should apply to anything, right? I had a few reloads left using a Montana Gold 180 grain FMJ and enough Universal to scoot them 950 fps. They shoot right on the old G22's sights and seemed accurate enough. Target was my old 14” plate with a fresh coat of paint and a roughly 4” circle sprayed in the middle. It's much easier on old eyes with a mild astigmatism. I backed off 50 measured yards, planted my feet and assumed my best unofficial bullseye stance. When the sights settled on the circle I began the trigger press, increased the pressure and told myself the gun was going to dryfire instead of going BANG. The result was the shot to the left. What'd I do wrong? Forgot to pull the trigger straight back- that's what. So I repeated the process four more times making a conscious effort to press the trigger through the center of the grip. Those four landed around the edges of the black circle. ![[Linked Image]](http://www.thesixgunjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/2017-09-27-18.29.40.jpg)
Last edited by SargeMO; 09/28/17. Reason: Spelling
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
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I'll disagree with most here and stay firmly in the triggercontrolisthemostimportant camp.
I also believe that the "7 Fundamentals of marksmanship" are nonsense for what 99.99% of the shooting people do. If you're not shooting offhand at the Olympics, your stance and breathing are the last of importance to me.
Grip the piss out of the gun, more or less align the sights, and press the trigger well. That will resolve 90% of people's misses.
I posted a thread here recently with a target that I shot with intentionally misaligned sights. Out to 7 yards I barely need the front sight anywhere in the rear notch at all to get an A Zone hit. Even to 25 I can intentionally misalign the sights and get hits. IF I have good trigger control. But it really doesn't matter how well my sights are aligned if I snatch the trigger, I'll easily miss.
And when we preach hard front sight focus for all shooting we end up inducing poor trigger control. People get so focused on the sight picture that they snatch the trigger when everything is "just right". And they miss. And they're told to focus on the front sight. And they do. And they snatch the trigger harder. And they miss. It's a viscous, unnecessary, cycle.
Ive seen time and time again, for hundreds of students, that when you demonstrate how little the sight alignment matters they immediately relax and begin to shoot better. But too few instructors have gone through the process of learning it for themselves.
But all this is really too dependent on what you're trying to hit, and how you're trying to hit it, to make any of this discussion super useful. "Accurate" is a pretty vague term that means a lot of different things to different people. And until you define exactly how accurate you want to be, in what time constraint you have, the answers you get will be all over the place. And since the goal isn't well defined all the answers may actually be right.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Trigger control and front sight concentration helped me the most.
Usually shoot center marked 9" paper plates at 25 yards.
Damn if my first shot doesn't hit deadcenter 9 out a 10 times...it's the
five or six shots after that I have trouble with ...until I reaquire what I did the
on the first shot and start putting them on the plate again. I'll be lucky if
I put another one deadcenter after a hundred rounds...
Slowly getting better accuracy...slowly
It was Jerry "Mad Dog" Shriver (SFC E-7)who said:
"No, no, I've got them right where I want them -- surrounded from the inside." http://www.macvsog.cc/1969.htm
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I'll disagree with most here and stay firmly in the triggercontrolisthemostimportant camp.
I also believe that the "7 Fundamentals of marksmanship" are nonsense for what 99.99% of the shooting people do. If you're not shooting offhand at the Olympics, your stance and breathing are the last of importance to me.
Grip the piss out of the gun, more or less align the sights, and press the trigger well. That will resolve 90% of people's misses.
I posted a thread here recently with a target that I shot with intentionally misaligned sights. Out to 7 yards I barely need the front sight anywhere in the rear notch at all to get an A Zone hit. Even to 25 I can intentionally misalign the sights and get hits. IF I have good trigger control. But it really doesn't matter how well my sights are aligned if I snatch the trigger, I'll easily miss.
And when we preach hard front sight focus for all shooting we end up inducing poor trigger control. People get so focused on the sight picture that they snatch the trigger when everything is "just right". And they miss. And they're told to focus on the front sight. And they do. And they snatch the trigger harder. And they miss. It's a viscous, unnecessary, cycle.
Ive seen time and time again, for hundreds of students, that when you demonstrate how little the sight alignment matters they immediately relax and begin to shoot better. But too few instructors have gone through the process of learning it for themselves.
But all this is really too dependent on what you're trying to hit, and how you're trying to hit it, to make any of this discussion super useful. "Accurate" is a pretty vague term that means a lot of different things to different people. And until you define exactly how accurate you want to be, in what time constraint you have, the answers you get will be all over the place. And since the goal isn't well defined all the answers may actually be right. Definitely the way I shoot. Most of my focus is on trigger control.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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But all this is really too dependent on what you're trying to hit, and how you're trying to hit it, to make any of this discussion super useful. "Accurate" is a pretty vague term that means a lot of different things to different people. And until you define exactly how accurate you want to be, in what time constraint you have, the answers you get will be all over the place. And since the goal isn't well defined all the answers may actually be right.
This is important to remember for anybody starting to handgun. Dave
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Grip the piss out of the gun...
I've taken a couple of courses/seminars taught by the U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit staff and they have preached that tight grip in every class. In fact, one instructor used the exact same words - "Grip the piss out of it!"
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A quote from Jake Di Vita
"You really don't even need great trigger manipulation to make an accurate shot. Ultimately the only thing that matters is where the gun is pointed when the bullet leaves the barrel. One part of developing a high skill level with a gun is that as you get better your margin for error increases. It becomes easier to keep the gun pointed where you want even under conditions of difficult shooting positions, less than ideal grip, or poor trigger control. Robbie can slap the hell out of a trigger and keep his gun still while doing it extremely well. As shots get tougher or skill levels get lower, you're able to get away with less.
Ultimately what is best is to use whichever method gives you the highest rate of success for the target you are shooting. Personally, I only feel the reset for the most difficult of shots."
Conditions dictate, in speed rock, sights are used and grip is minimal (one handed), trigger control goes out the window, as wrist alignment is changed drastically.
Strong hand or weak hand shooting.
shooting through ports in barricades.
Most people don't have what it takes to get old
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Again, it depends on what you're trying to accomplish. For unsighted, retention-type shooting to 5 yards I grip the pistol pretty firmly; but magnum-level revolvers aside, I've never had to grip a pistol hard to shoot it well. I do my best offhand shooting with a firm, relaxed grip. After training shooters of both genders and all sizes for 25 years, I am certain your level of natural hand strength and size plays a role in determining the grip that works best for you.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I disagree with Jake Di Vita, you dam sure need good trigger control. Bill Alared never missed a shot in a gun fight and he was very big on trigger control. Trigger control has everything to do with where the gun is pointed when it is fired.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Not familiar with Alared. Gun fights are a different animal.
Respect your opinion but unless your a Grand Master it must be "qualified"
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Not familiar with Alared. Gun fights are a different animal.
Respect your opinion but unless your a Grand Master it must be "qualified" He shot competively and was on the NYPD stakeout squad from its inception to end and was involved more gunfights than anyone else in NYPD history.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Don't think much of PPC--- they won't let civilians shoot in them, kind of one sided don't ya think
But since your name dropping
was taught revolver by Ed Cantrell, in Rock Springs. Wyo, before he shot Rosa in the sheriffs car, hunted antelope with him and Jordan
moved to Colorado was taught ISPC by Seyfried and Paul Miller
Shot in World IPSC championships
MastersTournament
Soldiers of Fortune against DOE teams, and NYPD, LA swat teams
Bianchi cup
Steel challenge
have watch literally 1000s of shooters jam the trigger in matchs under different stress, still hit the target.
got old.
Last edited by Etoh; 09/28/17.
Most people don't have what it takes to get old
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Etoh consistently says more wrong stuff than nearly anyone here.
Speed rock is stupid.
Civilians shoot PPC.
You can learn a lot from people that aren't "Grand Masters".
Shooting at a match really doesn't mean a lot. Lots of people shoot them.
Shooting competitively 30 years ago has nearly no bearing on what competitive shooters are doing now.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Thanks I'll remember you in my prayers.
Civilians couldn't shoot PPC back then.
Yes you can learn a lot from non Grand Masters, in Jerry Miculeks words,,, "old guys know things"
Shooting at a match certainly puts more experience to a shooter than internet gun webs. Lots of people pick their noses.
Competitive shooting has "matured to special interest" groups.
Jew guys have fun and just keep trying.
Most people don't have what it takes to get old
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The skill that the Sights vs. Trigger debate is hinting at is the ability to call your shot. A good shooter knows where the muzzle is pointed the instant the bullet leaves the bore. That knowledge provides the shooter with the ability to apply corrective actions. Without that knowledge spent bullets are piling up randomly. A shooter that can call his shots knows instantly why that shot went high-left and can specifically address the issue. The other shooter looks at a crappy target after-the-fact and can only guess.
Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense.
Robert Frost
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Don't think much of PPC--- they won't let civilians shoot in them, kind of one sided don't ya think
But since your name dropping
was taught revolver by Ed Cantrell, in Rock Springs. Wyo, before he shot Rosa in the sheriffs car, hunted antelope with him and Jordan
moved to Colorado was taught ISPC by Seyfried and Paul Miller
Shot in World IPSC championships
MastersTournament
Soldiers of Fortune against DOE teams, and NYPD, LA swat teams
Bianchi cup
Steel challenge
have watch literally 1000s of shooters jam the trigger in matchs under different stress, still hit the target.
got old.
Have no idea what you mean by "jam the trigger" but I can guarantee with certainty that they had excellent trigger control and could do so very fast.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Whatever they did, it was appropriate for that particular shot. And I doubt "jamming" would describe every particular shot.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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I'll disagree with most here and stay firmly in the triggercontrolisthemostimportant camp.
I also believe that the "7 Fundamentals of marksmanship" are nonsense for what 99.99% of the shooting people do. If you're not shooting offhand at the Olympics, your stance and breathing are the last of importance to me.
Grip the piss out of the gun, more or less align the sights, and press the trigger well. That will resolve 90% of people's misses.
I posted a thread here recently with a target that I shot with intentionally misaligned sights. Out to 7 yards I barely need the front sight anywhere in the rear notch at all to get an A Zone hit. Even to 25 I can intentionally misalign the sights and get hits. IF I have good trigger control. But it really doesn't matter how well my sights are aligned if I snatch the trigger, I'll easily miss.
And when we preach hard front sight focus for all shooting we end up inducing poor trigger control. People get so focused on the sight picture that they snatch the trigger when everything is "just right". And they miss. And they're told to focus on the front sight. And they do. And they snatch the trigger harder. And they miss. It's a viscous, unnecessary, cycle.
Ive seen time and time again, for hundreds of students, that when you demonstrate how little the sight alignment matters they immediately relax and begin to shoot better. But too few instructors have gone through the process of learning it for themselves.
But all this is really too dependent on what you're trying to hit, and how you're trying to hit it, to make any of this discussion super useful. "Accurate" is a pretty vague term that means a lot of different things to different people. And until you define exactly how accurate you want to be, in what time constraint you have, the answers you get will be all over the place. And since the goal isn't well defined all the answers may actually be right. Well said Blue. I remember that post about misaligned sights, good stuff; it aligned (pun intended) very well with my own experience. What I see from the average shooter, whether I'm teaching, competing, or just watching, is group sizes that can't be accounted for by poor sight alignment; they're a result of poor trigger control. It sounded to me like the OP was probably in that group too, which is no shame because that's where most shooters are regardless of how long they've been shooting. Unfortunately a lot of guys in that camp just try harder and harder to focus on that front sight, and never improve past a certain point of basic competency. SargeMO - that's some dang nice shooting; fine work and a great example of the importance of trigger control.
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Thank you Yondering. Trigger control got the rest of those shots where I intended them to go; but if the sights hadn't been aligned properly, they would have been in a nice little cluster somewhere on the logpile behind.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
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