Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Handgun accuracy?

I've always liked handguns but I never really got serious about shooting them until recently.

Being retired with nothing but time on my hands and living where I can shoot right out my back door I've decided to try and learn myself how to shoot handguns with at least a degree of accuracy so I picked up a MK IV 22/45 and a butt load of ammo and started reading up and watching video's. I'm definitely improving but I've still got a long ways to go so I thought I'd ask ya'll what single thing helped you the most.
For me it's been wearing my readers so I can see the sights better. The readers make the target blurry but the trade out seem to be worth it. I use 2.5 power so I'm thinking about getting a pair of 1.5 powers and see if the compromise works out but that's just something I'll have to experiment with.

Anyhooooo....what helped you the most....grip....stance....trigger control (my weak point)....all of the above?

Practice good habits. I just don't get out enough anymore and it shows. When I had a set up like you, out the back door I was a lot better.

The best advice I can give you is here, Field Grade.

http://www.thesixgunjournal.net/back-to-marksmanship-basics-offhand-shooting/

dry firing with snap caps until you know exactly what reaction the gun has in the split second before it goes off is what helped me a lot.

Field I am no great hand gunner, but Skeeter and Elmer I believe both mentioned opening up the back sight a bit to let light in on both sides.. I forget the exact amount, I have done it with mine, and it kets these 70 year old eyes aim a bit better.. Talk to others before trying this see what they say!!!

The new Ruger 22/45 has a good bit of daylight. I'm not sure I'd want a lot more.
My 1911's another story....little to no daylight but it has the three dot thing that I get along pretty well with.

I haven't done any one handed shooting but Sarge's link has my attention.
I plan to give it a try tomorrow just for something different.

You can do everything right, but if you screw up your trigger control, the rest is all for nothing.

Boy am I learning that.

Charlie,
You just bring all the fundamentals together and you'll break an accurate shot. For me, the front sight and the trigger press are the most critical elements to focus on. Stance, grip and breathing are important but the front sight and trigger are essential to hitting.

Here you go
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li0rGtXh23I

I was told this by a friend of my father, who would take me shooting sometimes. He could hit an apple off hand, one handed, every time at 100 yards. I didn't believe it until I saw it done on numerous occasions.

Mentors...

A few years back I couldn't hit a barn standing inside of it.

Then a New Mex get together happened and got a weekend long learnings from Ed toomanyletters and Paladin.

Those two guys are both incredible shots and great teachers that were willing to help out an ol'fardt novice.

A good mentor can go a long way for improving skillsets...

Thanks Field I hope you have fun with it. I'm no great pistolero either but I got early coaching from bullseye shooters seasoned by few years of taxpayer funded training, back when it was deemed unacceptable to miss the 8 ring of a B27 at 50 yards.

Good hits come from a proper zero, a perfect as possible sight picture and a surprise break of the trigger. My perspective on these is that they are three legs of a tripod- all critical for a solid platform.

Proper zero gets little press but it's importance cannot be overstated. http://www.thesixgunjournal.net/the-importance-of-zero/

GC......your excellent advise is similar to that of the author of a very helpful article I stumbled on.
He say's "shooting a handgun accurately is simple but it isn't easy".

http://www.backwoodshome.com/how-to-shoot-a-handgun-accurately/

I struggle with trigger control the most. I think some of the problem is the sloppy trigger that came with the 22/45. (edit; in fairness to Ruger I should say it actually breaks pretty good but has a loooot of take up) I do better with my 1911 but the cost of practice ammo and recoil is the reason I bought the Ruger. I should look into getting that trigger worked on. I'm pretty sure I've read about replacement triggers or kits for it.

Thanks Sarge......I'll report back tomorrow.

This ^^^^^^^^^^

Dry firing is a good practice for trigger control.

Inconsistent triggers are the Devil's curse. I can deal with a 12 pound trigger, if I know when it's going to break every time.

This in bold makes a little flag go up IME. But don't think I'm being a critical ass hole, I just want to make sure we're on the same page.

Trigger is important but first and foremost is fully wrapping your head around the front sight. That target should be indistinguishable when you switch focus to the front sight. I try and tell people they shouldn't just bring the front sight into focus. The focus should be so intense that they're picking out the machine marks or small pieces of dust on the front sight. Even a man size target should blur to a point that you don't even really know it is there.

This is often evidenced with rifles also. A guy will shoot so-so at the 300, and go 10 for 10 at the 500 or 600. Why? Because he's still trying to maintain some level of half ass focus of the target at the closer distances, so his shooting suffers. But when he moves back 2 or 300 yds, he achieves perfection. This is because he gives up trying to maintain any focus on the target at all. It is simply too far for his eyes to achieve it. So his brain subconsciously tells him "Fugk it" and all his focus goes to the front sight. It is also very common for shooters to remove their script contacts or glasses entirely. Because it forces them to focus on the front sight and nothing else. Their vision simply won't allow them to do anything but.

I can always tell if people are truly focusing on the front sight if I take them to the three yard line with no bullseye, just a blank sheet and have them do nothing but slow fire with 100% focus on the front sight and nothing else. The ones that are fully grasping the concept will leave one small hole in the paper with five shots through it. The ones that aren't will be a 50 cent piece or bigger grouping.

When teaching fundamentals I am a believer that the trigger control will naturally fall into place once a person fully grasps the front sight focus because our brain doesn't allow that trigger finger to interrupt what we are so desperately trying to achieve and maintain before the shot breaks. So when going back to basics I try and tell people FRONT SIGHT, FRONT SIGHT, FRONT SIGHT and let everything else fall into place.

BUT, the biggest problem a coach has is convincing people they aren't focusing on the front sight. I'd say 95% of pistoleros just nod their head and say "yeah, i'm on the front sight" but they really aren't. They just think they are. And once that thing in their brain clicks and they start making those one caliber holes with five shots at the 3yd line, they take off from there.



Travis

Thanks Travis, I am going to try that. Seems my abilities have hit a wall and cant seem to get past it. I think this will help.

The thing that has helped me most is the advice that you need your finger positioned on the trigger the same every time. That goes for rifle as well as a handgun.

Travis.....I'd never call you a critical a-hole.....a regular a-hole.....sure but never a critical a-hole.

Kidding aside......your point is well taken because when I think about it my shooting immediately improved when I started using the glasses so going to a lower power may not be such a good idea after all.
I'll stick with my regular readers for now and try to concentrate more on the front sight.
Also, I'm currently shooting at a measured seven yards. I'll try cutting that in half and work back from there.
Thanks for the input.


Getting back the the 22/45's trigger.....I found a Voulkerson kit but holy chit.....it costs half as much as the whole gun.
I also found a good video about polishing some of the parts.
I think I'll try that first...maybe sometime this winter when I need some indoor entertainment.

Travis,

I always enjoy your serious explanations because they make so much sense. Now if you could help me with these shaky old hands. I've tried tying them to the bumper of my F250 but that ends up making my lug nuts coming lose.

W. Bill

IHMSA matches are excellent practice.

tag

I'm sure glad nobody told me that stuff when I was learning to shoot. Seriously. I learned to shoot well focusing on the target, and am a better shooter for it. Some guys do improve by focusing on the front sight, but it's by no means the universal best method despite some big name schools promoting it. Focus on trigger control is still far more important.

Ok.




Dave

Travis......I tried your 3yrd adventure today. What an eye opener.
I started out in the fifty cent piece bracket with thirty rounds (three ten shot groups) but by the third group I was down to a little over a quarter..
Still a long ways from a one holer but I'm getting there.

You must have some very unique eyes...

Because front sight focus to absolutely ensure perfect sight alignment is of paramount importance...it ALL starts there. If you don't have that, you can at best only hope to settle for a much less than perfect shot. Next step is maintaining that perfect alignment through the trigger pull. EVERYTHING comes secondary to those two things.

Sorry, but Travis is dead right on this one.

If you're getting really good results by focusing on the target, my bet is your eyes have a wider focus range than most people...therefore, your advice really doesn't apply to mere mortals.

Not really; my vision used to be great but is pretty average now. It's more a matter of what people have been taught to think and how to think it. The sights don't have to be in focus.

In my experience most people who think sight alignment is the cause of their accuracy issues are wrong; it's usually trigger control, which is much more difficult to master. The sights don't have to be in focus to have them aligned correctly, or even to verify they are aligned; just aligning the fuzzy dots while focusing on the target is adequate to put shots touching at 10+ yards; from the sounds of it I doubt the OP is at that point. Perfect sight alignment is worthless when poor trigger control takes the gun off target at the moment of firing.

The way I do it is more natural, like pointing your finger. You don't have to focus on your finger to point it at something, right? Same for the pistol. Visually focus on the target while mentally focusing on the trigger, grip, and body structure in that order.

Focusing on the front sight does generally result in more focus overall, including on trigger control, so it seems like it works to a lot of folks. If that's what helps you, great, but chances are just focusing on that trigger will get you the same results or better. The common element here is focus, instead of just banging away hoping to improve.

I agree with Travis. Front sight concentration is right at the top of the list, followed very closely by trigger control. I have heard of some top competitors changing the sights on their handgun right before a match on occasion to force them to concentrate on the front sight. But if you pull the sight off target with your trigger pull you are still going to miss.

I'm no great shot myself but I know I do better when I can concentrate on the front sight.

The target doesnt move, the sights do.....they move more (unecessary) if you have a [bleep] trigger/control.

Aim small, hit small.

So...

What's your advice exactly?




Dave

Meh.

That schit is easy. You just look at the target and maintain trigger control.

Ask anyone...





Travis

You can have awesome "trigger control", but if the cap is busted and the sights aint aligned.

You can also have a single action with a glass sear and a two decade locktime, which makes for jacked up sights..

I'm going to jump in with the trigger control group, because I know for a fact it's pretty easy to jerk a shot 5-6 inches (God knows I've done it enough) out of a group at 7 yards or so and you'd be hard pressed to do that with great trigger control and the front sight lined up anywhere in the back notch.

I think the good thing for me about concentrating on sight alignment really hard is it allows my subconscious to handle the trigger pull.

Yes! that's exactly what I've been saying, but maybe you said it a little better.

My advice to the OP is to work on trigger control and grip. (Especially since he's acknowledged that trigger control is a problem.) Aiming the sights is relatively easy in comparison, and even poor sight alignment with good trigger control results in better shooting than perfect sights and poor trigger control.

Besides lots of dry fire, I recommend some live fire just shooting into a berm without aiming, just focus on the trigger. That's partly to prevent developing a flinch, as well as to help train your hand and arm muscles to do the right things.

Also, I wouldn't do a lot of dry fire on that .22 rimfire. Pick up a cheap Glock; if you develop good trigger control with that you'll do great with most everything else,.

While a good trigger is 90% (or more) of a guns accuracy the control of that is not the criteria. It is the front sites. (sights) The official publication of IPSC used to be called "Front Sight"

The correct term is flash sight picture., which means eye coming to focus on the front sight, at time of shot release, but the "focus" of the shooter is "NULL" which means the shooter can repeat the shot, move on or etc. from instinct and training, not committed to any previous...



SLOW IS FAST

its really hard to learn to "control" a bad trigger job. (actually a waist of time)

Don't take my word for it , ask the ISPC masters, jump over to Brian Enos and throw it up on the board. Or better yet read his book on it.

Save you the time, With multiple target engagement, and movement, the only way you know you missed is the last sight picture you had of the possible miss.

or you could ask a bullseye shooting what his "wobble area" does.

or a long range pistol shooter about pushing the shot through the target" from a prone Creedmore.

The lock time on all handguns suk big time, and cannot be controlled after release.


Study the modified Weaver and understand why it controls recoil and site alignment through the forearms, without disturbing the upper torso.

Then start to bring your elbows out and up until they are as wide as your shoulders, or more. This will push our left thumb down the frame and allow the left to control accuracy, so the right hand can be used for fire control. This will allow you to turret the gun without disturbing the sight picture.

Ummm, there are no "groups" here. Nobody is stating trigger control goes out the window.




Travis

Let's try and get that head removed from that ass before posting.

Thanks,
Dave

Do you need to fill out a hurt feelings report?

The part we disagree on is that trigger control does not "fall into place" for everyone when focusing on the front sight; along with the claims above that front sight focus is first and foremost above trigger control. I'd rather teach someone to consciously work on trigger control, than to tell them "front sight, front sight, front sight" and hope their subconscious takes care of the trigger.

I'm well aware of the Front Sight training, and that there's a whole generation of shooters who've had that drilled into them. I just don't agree with it.

Practice. [bleep]-loads of practice. IMHO the key to accuracy is consistency. Consistent grip, consistent sight picture, consistent trigger pull. All of that comes from practice. A good coach can "leverage" your practice to help you get the most from it, especially early on, but in the end, efficiency-of-practice will only take you so far, eventually it takes volume of practice. Keeping the cost of practicing down will help you get more practice so handload for your handguns if you don't, and get a good rimfire as well.

Practicing with something similar to what you plan to carry helps some, but honestly, anything that helps you repeat a sight picture and a trigger pull over and over and over is going to benefit you. If possible, change guns. Shoot a rimfire some. Semi-auto. Magnum revolver. Change shooting disciplines. Each one will teach you something that will make you better at another.

Stance .. do what is comfortable for you and appropriate for the action and recoil of the gun you've chosen. The sort of loose modified Weaver -esque stance I use for heavy recoiling revolvers will often cause jams with a semi-auto. An isosceles stance leaves the elbows too stiff, the gun too centered, and if I don't bust my elbows, I'll probably take the front sight right between the eyes ... hard.

... just my opinion, of course. Fundamentally I'm a handgun hunter, not a defensive handgunner. Precision is everything. There's no making up for a miss by missing faster next time.

Flave I was just trying to say I place more importance on the trigger squeeze/press then sight alignment. Of course ideally I'd do everything perfect every time, but I'm pretty sure that'll never happen.

A good pellet pistol is a great tool (IMO) for showing weak spots in your training.

I gotta great idea. Why don't you guys have a shoot off with Flave, Clark, Travis?
I'd even pay money to see that.

W. Bill

My only point is that I wasn't trying to negate the value of trigger control.

You and I are in agreement that the subconscious goes a long way toward achieving trigger control.




Dave

Let's hope your shooting is better than your reading.




Dave

I'm down.




Dave

Form, sight picture, and trigger control,,,flowing the combination is what I work on at the range. If I dedicate my conscious to just 1 aspect, my groups will open up at longer distances...especially over 50 yards. Some disciplines come naturally to each shooter, so effort isn't really needed for that portion(say the grip). For me being able to comfortably flow with each shot/series, is when I shoot effortlessly the best.

A lot of good stuff there, Thanks Sarge and RH Clark.

Hell.......thanks to everybody else too
.
I'm looking at this endevor from a whole new perspective thanks to all the great advice......well.....cept for that knuckle-head that said to go out and buy a Glock,,,,grin. I am however going to get some snap caps for my K-22.

With all of yall's help and shooting about fifty rounds a day for several days now I think I'm well on my way.

Heck.....I might even try my luck on a few Bunnies in another month or two.

Trigger control is very important, and I'll agree that it is the problem most struggle with. But I'm still with Travis on this one, it all starts with sight alignment, and proper sight alignment comes from a focus on the front sight at the moment the trigger is pulled.

After you have proper sight alignment, then comes trigger control...anything else is putting the cart before the horse.

Finally, you have to have BOTH together to achieve any meaningful accuracy.

Its not the moment the trigger is pulled, its the moment the cap lights. Its "follow through"

A set of snap caps will show this pretty quick in that in the time the hammer falls to when it hits, one can screw up sight alignment or at the very least be off the target, even with a clean, even breaking trigger. SA revolvers are especially bad in this regard if one isnt used to them.

Its kind of akin to firing a bp hammer gun....

For me and my current state of my groups being just left of center. It's the trigger push that I developed, I just have to break that habit I picked up from lack of practice.

But you will notice I said "group". How I got the group was to focus on the front sight. Years ago it was no problem to draw my G 21 from the holster and hit a B27 target in the head. That and I haven't been to the gopher patch for over a year now. That was the best practice I ever had.

I'm going to go out now and give the 'Total Focus On Front Sight' technique a try.
I was practicing dry-sighting last night - and everything just seemed to follow and come together without thought or hesitation.

Epiphany!

Pretty good read on stages of competence. It kind of relates to this mostly due to the fact we are trying to reach the 4th stage (IMO of course).

http://www.businessballs.com/consciouscompetencelearningmodel.htm

Shot two "bad guys" center mass last night with simunition rounds. I was getting charged by one and still focused on front sight and hit dead center chest. Wasn't thinking as much about trigger control in that situation. In the end, I "lived".

Interesting on the front sight focus. Opposite of most shotgunning advice where you are often told to focus on the target and not the sights. Granted it is apples and oranges, just interesting how there are completely different approaches to hitting targets.

I am far from a good hand gun shot. I can chase cans around with my M15 at 20 yards or so, but have never spent much time shooting much further. I need to start! Bunnies would be a blast!

You are more than welcome my friend. I've always found it useful, when wanting to learn anything, to go straight to the top guys in that field if at all possible.

Important point there. The really good and fast shooters I've known seem to have committed some or all of the fundamentals to the subconscious. They know by feel if their firing grip is good when they clear leather. They have a degree of sight alignment, appropriate to the task at hand, visualized before the gun comes up into their line of sight. They automatically make adjustments to achieve this and begin the press w/o thinking about it. It all flows together effortlessly.

Bluedreaux has posted this before. It's a very good drill for fundamentals.


https://pistol-training.com/drills/dot-torture

Each shooter must build his or her own internal "clock". The target can be thought of as the same size regardless of distance. 8" or so. The only thing that changes is time. It measures the distance. A smaller "8" takes more time on the front sight. going faster than your "clock" will only be a miss.

My grandma can hit bunnies at 50 yards---- it just takes her longer.

Been giving this thread some thought and decided to apply what I've been preaching. One hand, 50 yard shooting from the bullseye stance is my personal crucible because whatever I do right or wrong, in applying the fundamentals, is magnified exponentially.

I've got a tuned Ruger Vaquero 45 that is my deadliest 50 yard handgun and and an old nickel Colt 1911 that is nearly as good. I decided instead to use a '97 vintage Glock 22 I picked up about a week ago. It's entirely stock with plastic sights and a 6 ½ pound trigger. Marksmanship fundamentals should apply to anything, right?

I had a few reloads left using a Montana Gold 180 grain FMJ and enough Universal to scoot them 950 fps. They shoot right on the old G22's sights and seemed accurate enough. Target was my old 14” plate with a fresh coat of paint and a roughly 4” circle sprayed in the middle. It's much easier on old eyes with a mild astigmatism.

I backed off 50 measured yards, planted my feet and assumed my best unofficial bullseye stance. When the sights settled on the circle I began the trigger press, increased the pressure and told myself the gun was going to dryfire instead of going BANG. The result was the shot to the left. What'd I do wrong? Forgot to pull the trigger straight back- that's what. So I repeated the process four more times making a conscious effort to press the trigger through the center of the grip. Those four landed around the edges of the black circle.

I'll disagree with most here and stay firmly in the triggercontrolisthemostimportant camp.

I also believe that the "7 Fundamentals of marksmanship" are nonsense for what 99.99% of the shooting people do. If you're not shooting offhand at the Olympics, your stance and breathing are the last of importance to me.

Grip the piss out of the gun, more or less align the sights, and press the trigger well. That will resolve 90% of people's misses.

I posted a thread here recently with a target that I shot with intentionally misaligned sights. Out to 7 yards I barely need the front sight anywhere in the rear notch at all to get an A Zone hit. Even to 25 I can intentionally misalign the sights and get hits. IF I have good trigger control. But it really doesn't matter how well my sights are aligned if I snatch the trigger, I'll easily miss.

And when we preach hard front sight focus for all shooting we end up inducing poor trigger control. People get so focused on the sight picture that they snatch the trigger when everything is "just right". And they miss. And they're told to focus on the front sight. And they do. And they snatch the trigger harder. And they miss. It's a viscous, unnecessary, cycle.

Ive seen time and time again, for hundreds of students, that when you demonstrate how little the sight alignment matters they immediately relax and begin to shoot better. But too few instructors have gone through the process of learning it for themselves.

But all this is really too dependent on what you're trying to hit, and how you're trying to hit it, to make any of this discussion super useful. "Accurate" is a pretty vague term that means a lot of different things to different people. And until you define exactly how accurate you want to be, in what time constraint you have, the answers you get will be all over the place. And since the goal isn't well defined all the answers may actually be right.

Trigger control and front sight concentration helped me the most.
Usually shoot center marked 9" paper plates at 25 yards.
Damn if my first shot doesn't hit deadcenter 9 out a 10 times...it's the
five or six shots after that I have trouble with ...until I reaquire what I did the
on the first shot and start putting them on the plate again. I'll be lucky if
I put another one deadcenter after a hundred rounds...
Slowly getting better accuracy...slowly

Definitely the way I shoot. Most of my focus is on trigger control.

This is important to remember for anybody starting to handgun.






Dave

I've taken a couple of courses/seminars taught by the U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit staff and they have preached that tight grip in every class. In fact, one instructor used the exact same words - "Grip the piss out of it!"

A quote from Jake Di Vita

"You really don't even need great trigger manipulation to make an accurate shot. Ultimately the only thing that matters is where the gun is pointed when the bullet leaves the barrel. One part of developing a high skill level with a gun is that as you get better your margin for error increases. It becomes easier to keep the gun pointed where you want even under conditions of difficult shooting positions, less than ideal grip, or poor trigger control. Robbie can slap the hell out of a trigger and keep his gun still while doing it extremely well. As shots get tougher or skill levels get lower, you're able to get away with less.
Ultimately what is best is to use whichever method gives you the highest rate of success for the target you are shooting. Personally, I only feel the reset for the most difficult of shots."


Conditions dictate, in speed rock, sights are used and grip is minimal (one handed), trigger control goes out the window, as wrist alignment is changed drastically.

Strong hand or weak hand shooting.

shooting through ports in barricades.

Again, it depends on what you're trying to accomplish. For unsighted, retention-type shooting to 5 yards I grip the pistol pretty firmly; but magnum-level revolvers aside, I've never had to grip a pistol hard to shoot it well. I do my best offhand shooting with a firm, relaxed grip. After training shooters of both genders and all sizes for 25 years, I am certain your level of natural hand strength and size plays a role in determining the grip that works best for you.

I disagree with Jake Di Vita, you dam sure need good trigger control. Bill Alared never missed a shot in a gun fight and he was very big on trigger control. Trigger control has everything to do with where the gun is pointed when it is fired.

Not familiar with Alared. Gun fights are a different animal.

Respect your opinion but unless your a Grand Master it must be "qualified"

He shot competively and was on the NYPD stakeout squad from its inception to end and was involved more gunfights than anyone else in NYPD history.

Don't think much of PPC--- they won't let civilians shoot in them, kind of one sided don't ya think

But since your name dropping

was taught revolver by Ed Cantrell, in Rock Springs. Wyo, before he shot Rosa in the sheriffs car, hunted antelope with him and Jordan

moved to Colorado was taught ISPC by Seyfried and Paul Miller

Shot in World IPSC championships
MastersTournament
Soldiers of Fortune against DOE teams, and NYPD, LA swat teams
Bianchi cup
Steel challenge

have watch literally 1000s of shooters jam the trigger in matchs under different stress, still hit the target.

got old.

Etoh consistently says more wrong stuff than nearly anyone here.

Speed rock is stupid.

Civilians shoot PPC.

You can learn a lot from people that aren't "Grand Masters".

Shooting at a match really doesn't mean a lot. Lots of people shoot them.

Shooting competitively 30 years ago has nearly no bearing on what competitive shooters are doing now.

Thanks I'll remember you in my prayers.

Civilians couldn't shoot PPC back then.

Yes you can learn a lot from non Grand Masters, in Jerry Miculeks words,,, "old guys know things"

Shooting at a match certainly puts more experience to a shooter than internet gun webs. Lots of people pick their noses.

Competitive shooting has "matured to special interest" groups.

Jew guys have fun and just keep trying.

The skill that the Sights vs. Trigger debate is hinting at is the ability to call your shot. A good shooter knows where the muzzle is pointed the instant the bullet leaves the bore. That knowledge provides the shooter with the ability to apply corrective actions. Without that knowledge spent bullets are piling up randomly. A shooter that can call his shots knows instantly why that shot went high-left and can specifically address the issue. The other shooter looks at a crappy target after-the-fact and can only guess.

Synergy.

Have no idea what you mean by "jam the trigger" but I can guarantee with certainty that they had excellent trigger control and could do so very fast.

Whatever they did, it was appropriate for that particular shot. And I doubt "jamming" would describe every particular shot.

Well said Blue. I remember that post about misaligned sights, good stuff; it aligned (pun intended) very well with my own experience.

What I see from the average shooter, whether I'm teaching, competing, or just watching, is group sizes that can't be accounted for by poor sight alignment; they're a result of poor trigger control. It sounded to me like the OP was probably in that group too, which is no shame because that's where most shooters are regardless of how long they've been shooting. Unfortunately a lot of guys in that camp just try harder and harder to focus on that front sight, and never improve past a certain point of basic competency.

SargeMO - that's some dang nice shooting; fine work and a great example of the importance of trigger control.

Thank you Yondering. Trigger control got the rest of those shots where I intended them to go; but if the sights hadn't been aligned properly, they would have been in a nice little cluster somewhere on the logpile behind.

Yup certainly all of it is important.

Hitting thrown objects or moving targets using sustained lead IMO, firing a single projectile, Ive still had the best results by making the sights the primary focus and the moving target the periphery, long gun or handgun.

Same for shotgunning using both sustained and follow through leads. I always make the bead the focus. Just what works for me.

I should note how bad shotgun triggers can be, but I think its universally understood!

Well said...

Keep it coming guys......lots of good info.

I'm shooting between 30 and 50 rounds a day and slowly but surely improving.

The hardest part for me is still trigger control but I'm working on it.
I'm starting to understand why so many say it's so important. It clearly is.

I find the front sight / trigger control argument interesting because you can't have one without the other. You can't hit when the sight moves from where you want to place your shot, and you can't keep the sight on the target with poor trigger control. So I say both are equally important and impossible to separate.

One of the best ways I've found to improve my handgun shooting is dryfiring. You remove the distraction of the recoil, noise and the action cycling and you can clearly see where your sights are pointed when the sear breaks. I'd suggest for one week stopping your live fire practice and dry fire for 50-100 times a day. Treat each and every trigger break with full concentration. When you find your fatigued and can non longer concentrate on the trigger break, stop your session for the day as you only want to practice quality trigger breaks. I predict you'll be pleasantly surprised by when you return to live firing the following week.

If you want the ultimate handgun trainer, get a quality air pistol. It's just like dryfiring with no noise, recoil or action movement to distract you.

No disagreement here, they certainly go hand in hand. In my experience more people have trouble learning proper trigger control.

Obviously both of those, along with all the other fundamentals, are important. They aren't impossible to separate though, sight alignment and trigger control are different skills that can be practiced separately. My disagreement is with those saying focus on the front sight comes above all else, which is hogwash and bad advice for a new shooter who needs to develop all of the fundamentals correctly.

Also as I already said above, arguing against focus on the front sight does not mean I don't use sight alignment. I shoot much better focusing on the target, especially small or hard to see targets in field conditions; that doesn't mean I don't align the sights. The sights don't have to be in focus to verify alignment. That goes for rifle, pistol, or shotgun; I shoot them all the same way, regardless whether they have beads, irons, or optics.

I just don't see how one separates concentrating on the front sight and trigger control. I know my trigger control is off when I see the front sight moving with the trigger break. I can tell when my trigger control is improving because the front sight doesn't move when the trigger breaks.

I'm not going to argue about what is the best advice or bad advice, I can only relate to what has worked for me. People learn differently and have different weaknesses, so taking a dogmatic approach to helping someone out might not be the best approach as what is holding him or her back might not be what you think is holding them back.

If you can separate steering a car and working the gas pedal, you should be able to separate sight alignment and trigger control. Of course they go together, but they are different operations; the point being that you can do one right but get the other wrong. If you can't use good trigger control without concentrating on the front sight, the trigger control probably needs more work.

When I teach someone to shoot, we work on the fundamentals individually at first - trigger control, sight alignment, grip, stance, eye dominance, etc. Then we move on to working everything together, but knowing how to do the fundamentals properly first helps them to identify what they're doing right and what they need to improve.

As a side note, the comments in this thread are a good illustration why some people's shooting improves so much when they use a red dot sight and realize they can focus on the target.

The whole 'focus on the sights/target' thing is an individual journey in itself. From youth to about age 32, I had 20/10 or 20/15 vision depending on who checked it. By 39 I was ready for glasses. Optometrists who are not pistoleros tend to over-correct and my first one (a trap shooter himself) did just that. I could see scoring rings way out there but my sights were a blur. I finally found an eye doc who shot pistols & things got better fast. And oddly, my vision w/o glasses has improves and I rarely wear them anymore; almost never when I shoot a pistol.

I acquire a sight picture as the pistol comes into my line of sight. If I'm not pressed for time I check for equal light on either side of the front sight and make adjustments to correct that and insure they're level across the top. I then place that sight picture on my aiming point and take up any slack in the trigger. When the sight picture is as good as it's going to be I think 'dry-fire' and increase pressure on the trigger while watching the sights.

I'm just relating the process, not suggesting it's the best way for anyone else.

A better analogy would be separating steering the car from looking at the road to see where you are going.

An even better example would be to actually go out and shoot. Deviate your sights. Intentionally misalign then and get a clean trigger press. All the way back to 25 yards you can misalign your sights and still get good hits.

I think someone mentioned this already but maybe defining the necessary accuracy for Charlie's purpose would help the discussion. Defensive shooting and making good hits fast out to 15 or 20 yards on a paper plate size target is one thing, head shooting a squirrel at 40 yards is another.

Best training advice I've read here so far. I've trained with a Feinwerkbau and later, a Steyr air pistol daily, when I couldn't shoot live ammo. My 50 yd slow-fire scores improved dramatically over the course of several months of practice. The dry-fire idea is also spot-on and what the USAMU does daily, whether shooting live ammo or not. Good stuff.

I've learned from 30 years of shooting bullseye as well as standard, air and free pistol that sight alignment is critical at 50 yards (or meters). At 25 yards/meters it reverses, and trigger control and cadence become critically important. For instance, shooting 230 grain hardball rapid fire in a service pistol match teaches you to accept less than perfect sight alignment in order to break the shot without hesitation. You still see the sights (and are intensely focused on them), but you must break the shot when the pistol comes down out of recoil without pausing to gain perfect sight alignment. You see the sights, but accept less than perfect alignment in order to break the shot on time (5 shots, 10 sec).
Bob

I would agree.

I hardly ever shoot a handgun under 25 yards. Most of the time its 30-40.