Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats A custom '06' w/ a 26 inch barrel ?

No way. Jack O'Connor once wrote that he preferred his custom rifles with 22 inch barrels, but that 24 inch barrels were "not bad." Hunting rifles with 26 inch barrels were "for the birds" according to old Jack. I've owned one 26 inch barreled hunting/target rifle, a Remington 700 SFVS in .308. 10.5 lbs. with a 3.5-10X Leupold Varix III. Too long and too heavy for serious hunting rifle.
It took several years, I finally noticed something. From field positions, I could shoot that rifle better than any other I'd ever shot...... I mean, I once shot a, five shot, 6 inch group at 547 yds. from a sitting position w/ a shooting sling. Hmm.
So, my custom '06' came to need a new barrel. It is suppose to be everything I want in a hunting rifle. All steel parts. Mauser 98, CRF action. 24 inch Pac-Nor barrel w/ .600 dia. muzzle. Leupold 6X42 scope. 7 lbs. , 4 ozs. empty. But the guy that built it messed up the chamber. Tried setting the barrel back, but there was not enough shoulder left on the barrel after he removed as much metal as he could get away with.
So, a new Pac-Nor barrel was installed. The barrel was left at 26 inches. Frankly, if they would have asked if they could do that, I'd have said no way. But I played with it before I realized it was left that long. And I liked it.
The rifle now weighs about 8 lbs. thanks to the MPI Kevlar stock.
I just gave it it's first range "workout." What I do is wrap myself up in the sling as I go into sitting position and see how fast it settles down before I pull the trigger. What a difference ! It's now almost as fast as my M1A Squad Scout. Probably because the M1A is about 16 ozs. heavier with the Leupold 1.5-4X Scout Scope.
This is just what I need from a big game rifle. All of the 4 yr. old bucks I've shot, or shot at, where I hunt now have all been running shots. I really need the rifle to settle down, and get the shot off quickly. It also needs to "follow through." That means make it tough on guys like me who have the bad habit of stopping the gun just as the trigger breaks.
So, you might say this old dog has had his eyes opened by this "for the birds" 26 inch barrel. E

All due respect to Jack, But look what you proved to yourself !!! Barrel contures have a lot of importance , i'm happy your happy Congrats,proper sling use also gives benefits to the shooter , Jack also taught that also, ive got no problem with my 5.5 conture Hart 1/10 tw,27.24 inch bbl. also a 30/06. never ran a Pac-Nor but their a great bbl maker also. enjoy and Great hunting with your o6 custom.

My 700 has a 22 inch barrel.

Oheremicus ,

Congrats on a fun toy. It looks like you discovered ignorant prejudice can interrupt some fun.

My Ruger #1B came with a 26" factory barrel (for all you birds)

Punched it out to .30 Gibbs and it moves bullets right along.

I'm a big O'Connor fan, too, and I chugged the 22"-barrel Kool-Aid by the gallon. But several years ago, I bought a no-name European Mauser sporter in 30-06 with a very slim stock and a 25" barrel. It weighed less than 7 pounds empty and pointed like a bird gun. At the time I was a big fan of the Scout rifle concept and I wrote it off because of the long barrel. I did not appreciate what I had.

Then a couple of years ago, my father gave me his uncle's old Remington 700 in 7 Mag with a 26" barrel. I hunt in very thick brush and didn't have very high hopes for this one, but again, the darned thing points like a bird gun. Then a few months ago, I saw Winchester's new Alaskan rifle with a 25" barrel in a shop. The clerk handed it to me, and I was again astonished at how well it pointed.

I feel like you don't notice the advantages of a long barrel unless you shoot offhand a LOT, and not many people do that these days. O'Connor hunted in the mountains, so maybe he didn't shoot as much offhand shooting as he did from a rest or from field positions.

Funny how we take as Gospel things that we really should try for ourselves.


Okie John

Had a 30-06 with a 26" barrel, a Model of 1917 that had been "sporterized." It shot rather well, I always liked the solid feeling of that rifle.

Eventually I had the barrel cut back to 21" and set the rifle into a lighter fiberglass stock. I found it much handier than the 26" version, but... I do fondly remember the handling attributes you've described about your own 26" barreled 30-06 rifle.

Most of my hunting anymore is done with a 24" 30-06 or 25-06, and I'm happy with that barrel length.

Regards, Guy

i have built many rifles with 26in lighter contour barrels, the weigh they balance in field positions when your out of breath and in a hurry, there is no compromise, i see so many rifles in the classifieds that i would snatch up in a minute if they had some barrel on them,

i think a 20 or 22 in barrel belongs on a 30-30,,,,, i built a 270 on a g33-40 with a light 26in pacnor and gave it to a buddy for his birthday, he would of shunned anyrifle with more than a 22in barrel his whole life, wouldnt dream of shooting or carrying one of my guns,

this rifle has been on a few continents now and harvested a pile of game,

Ill take 22 over 26, and 18 over 22...and sure dont turn my nose away from a 16.

My hunting buddy has an old .270 Sendero that he named E. F., from the E. F. Hutton commercial, “When E. F. speaks, people listen”.

When his E. F. speaks, stuff dies. I asked him why he packed such a heavy rifle. He said he knew what it would do when he got it there.

He’s not a mountain hunter, hunts WT’s. Pronghorns and such.

So, IMO, the right gun is the one that produces for you, the one you can shoot well and have confidence in.

One size doesn’t fit all.

DF

I have several custom sporter rifles with 26” barrels and one with 27” barrel. I prefer them for the velocity gain.

In September while ostensibly bear hunting I spent 3+ hours on an oakbrush infested, steep azz ridge scouting for elk at 8000 ft. The entire time I was very happy to be carrying a sub 7lb rifle with 22" bbl that I was often threading through the brush..........

If I'm toting a 26" tube, the case is going to hold a hell of a lot more powder than the 06' case.

Just bought a stock 700 adl .30-06 22 “ barrel.. An old one.. I like it, but all my serious hunting rifles have 26 “ barrels... Had a 280 mountain rifle for about a month.. One hunt and it came to town and was traded off on something else, I think a 721 .270 with a 24 in barrel..

I tend to agree, but I would be curious as to what sort of velocity gains a guy could see with the OP's setup? IIRC, Mule Deer had an article about a 26" tubed 270 WCF he played with. Seems like he got some good chrono numbers?

My 30-06 with a 28" Pac-Nor is quite impressive.Here is some of the velocities I'm getting.

Good way of looking at it!

I've owned chronos continuously since 1981. One of the first things I learned was that bbl length makes a difference. A 20' bbl'd 300 Wby ain't much faster than a 22' bbl'd 30-06 (but the muzzle blast from a 20' bbl 300Wby is most definitely impressive).

And a long bbl'd 30-06 does indeed gain a fair amount of velocity. It won't come close to a 26' 300Wby, but still........

I have a 25' Douglas bbl on a 270W and it's not all that far behind a 270Wby.

Has anyone ever missed a shot in the field and immediately thought "Gee, I would have made that shot if my barrel was 4 inches longer"

Which is why I prefer a shorter, lighter, 22" bbl..............

And 22' barrels in magnums are not appealing to me. At all.

I have 2 338's in the safe. The pre 64 Model 70 was built with a 22" barrel and chronos at 2650 with 225 NPT's . The Classic Model 70 has a 26" barrel and chronos at around 2920. I'll take the extra speed any day, but the shorter barreled rifle hasn't been a slouch over the years either. In the relatively open country we hunt, I don't suffer from beating through the brush with the longer barrel. If I hunted the brushy Coast range, the shorter barreled rifle would be the ticket- but then the shots would be shorter also meaning I wouldn't need the extra velocity. Should also be applicable to the 06- the terrain you hunt in makes a huge difference in what you may want to carry. No reason a 26" barreled rifle can't carry as well as a 22" rifle if it is built right, IMO.

Bob

If I wanted more weight out front on a hunting rifle, and I mean one for western mountain hunting that I had to pack up and down, in a 30-06, I’d go to a thicker barrel not a longer one.

Given what you have in hand, if the 26” length isn’t bothersome, call it good.

I have become more sensitive to muzzle blast over the years. My 20" and under .223's are too damn loud for me without hearing protection. In my opinion, with most hunting rifles, the difference in carrying qualities between a 20" barrel and anything up to a 26" barrel is insignificant. (I'm sure those who seem to always be hunting in the thickest, meanest, thorniest brush in North America will disagree, but they will have a hard time convincing me that they can actually shoot anything in those places if it's that bad.) I do have some short barreled rifles, they balance and handle well, but they're not bolt guns. I think the average bolt-action, centerfire design benefits greatly in handling and shooting qualities with a little more barrel than what we usually see today. Given the shorter action length, I sure wouldn't care to have anything shorter than the 26" barrel on my 1-B in .308.

This schit is always fhuqking funny.

I've never had a rifle not get better,with a Barrel Chop and ONLY a Barrel Chop will extrapolate velocity "loss",at like pressure...given the courteous assumption that The Chopper is gunning identical ammo Post Chop. I've chopped a bunch more than a fhuqking schit load of rifles,to purposely extrapolate velocity differences and I've never seen anything even Remotely close to what many folks "believe". 'Course,comparing two different rifles,of two different barrel lengths/types/throats/bore dimensioning assuredly is NOT the same,as The Chop and it's findings. Hint.

If only because Facts and Physics is handy,it is a constant that rigidity is increased,with The Chop. That being said,accuracy tends to improve Post Chop...even on the heralded Anschutz "choked" barrels. Crown Myths abound and that schit cracks me up too,mainly because I shoot a smidge. Hint.

Balance/handling can be tuned many different ways and the LAST fhuqkin thing I'd do on the chamberings thus far cited,is to add barrel length,to "help" them thangs or "add" velocity. Handy/dandy will RELIABLY bear farrrrrrrrrrrrr more fruit and connect more dots,than adding length. Ask me how I KNOW. Dare ya'. Hint.(grin)

Now as Performance/Precision goes,projectile selection is a HUGE variable,that most if not all are in a haste to overlook. There is NO way to make a 308 or '06 "fast",but it'd take a Cross-eyed Drooling Fhuqking Retard,to not be able to discern a halfa fhuqking foot less of spout,while schlepping same. Many platforms GAIN velocity with a Chop and that REALLY fhuqks with heads,especially upon Rimfires(I've Chopped a few of them too).Hint.

I'm quick to Chop and toss Retard Barrel Length stubs offa fhuqking cliff and tend to give boolits a thunk. POA/POI is very fhuqking easily arranged and wind drift do tend to matter more than a smidge. Throat/twist/COAL also have a bearing and that pun be intended,but everyone is in a hurry,to poke carts in front of the horse. Couple them Facts and Physics with glass selection and most are schlepping Train Wreck Goat Fhuqks unknowingly,while being "convinced" they "know" what in the fhuqk they are TRYING to talk about,but missing all by miles. Hint.

I've shot every chambering thus far cited and a LOT that ain't. I'd much rather have a 21" Kreedmire,than a 26" 308,if only because I've got both. I'd rather have a 21" 308,rather than a 26" 308,if only because I've got both. Etc,etc,etc,...yada,yada,yada and I can extrapolate 100's of spouts through the years and a schit load of chamberings,throats,twist rates and COAL,with bajillions of boolits,whistled through various chronographs,into distant Zip Codes and Critters. Most folks are AMAZINGLY Clueless and just love to expound upon same obliviously. 'Course,that is THE funny part.(grin)

An erector that tracks with it's windshield,is THE greatest eye opener and nobody that touts adding barrel length,has a First Fhuqking Clue about same,nor an inkling to Performance/Precision or defeating Atmospheric Influences ala boolit selection. Hint.

Never been tough to cypher,who shoots and who don't...though I enjoy folks obliviously quantifying same.

Bless their hearts.

Hint.

Gotta load for a coupla new barrels and go gun come-ups.

Re-hint.(grin)

Oopsie...was laughing soooooooo hard,I forgot to hang some pics.






Started at 28",finished at 21".


'06 Chop. Hint.



26" start...21" finish. Hint.



Am thinkin',I've a "few" more.

Hint.(grin)

Damn....I find myself agreeing with Boxer more and more...

Geez Larry, you could at least invest in a bandsaw. PM me your address and I'll send you an old portable bandsaw I have laying around for your experiments....

Bob

Look close, Sheister....those ain't his hands. An apprentice is the best power tool.

I too have come to prefer a little more weight in the barrel over the years. If you are shooting prone or on a pack over a rock or off a bipod, it doesn't matter much, but the extra barrel weight sure helps me off hand, sitting or off sticks.

You can get the feel of forward balance without going 26". A slighly heavier 22" or 23" will give about the same effect.

A lighter stock will also give more forward balance. It's a relative thing.

DF

i wouldnt walk across walmarts parking lot with a 22in or shorter barrel, i have a 454 casull if i want a short barrel,,,,, a 26 or 27 in 2 or 3 contour has never hampered me in the least, hell my mules dont even mind it the longer barrel makes a good jack handle in an emergency, leverage and all,,,,,,,, and the shot out ones make good tomato stakes,,,,,

Exactly!
One can build for nice forward balance without having to carry a musket.

The only reason I see for a really long barrel is the extra reach for bayonet use. Since as of late I haven't had to defend the mission station at Rorke's Drift from an Impi of Zulus, I'll stick with my short handy rifles.

Laughing....

Never understood long barrels myself...

An Edge stock can really change balance and handling.

26 oz vs 42 oz can really transform a rifle.

DF

I have a M700 Remington SS in .338 Win. Mag. It has a muzzle brake (from the factory) and is 25.5" long. Surprisingly it seems to be one of the handiest of my rifles. And this despite the fact I am only 5'5" tall! As one and one-half inches of the length are made up of muzzle brake there is no velocity advantage in this length. Doesn't matter since I have never loaded it up to factory maximums and it still kills quite effectively.

Jim

All of my target rifles started out with 26" barrels for the simple reason that as I wore the throat out on the chamber, I wanted to be able to cut off the chamber and set the barrel back. Interestingly enough, my best long range scores were shot with barrels which had been set back. I don't know if the thousands of rounds that went through them honed them down to perfection, or whether the shorter stiffer barrel contributed to the accuracy, but for some number of years now bench rest shooters have preferred shorter stiffer barrels.

Jack OConner hunted from horseback frequently. In a scabbard any extra length makes it hard to with draw while mounted. Since I get off the horse it doesn't matter too much. Don't trust horses enough to shoot from the saddle. I would, A miss & B land on my ass most likely.

A 26 inch barrel can do great things for some cartridges. The 270 win. with a 26 inch+ barrel and R26 becomes a virtual magnum. Like Mule Deer's Seven and seven combo (whisky & 7RM) the 26 & 26 doe's wonders. I think the 30-06 will not gain as much due to expansion ration but don't know. What I do know is it is no problem cutting a barrel back if it doesn't work out but I have yet to figure out how to add on more barrel. Yes a replacement would.

I am itching for a 257 Wby. with a 28" barrel probably in a Ruger No. 1 or B78 configuration. I figure anything less than 26" I might as well stick with the 25-06.

lily',

You suck a mean ass.

Congratulations?!?







Bob,

I've chopped,hacked,burned through barrels in every way that there is. PortaBand's are handy,as are Sawzall's,but they rob a certain satisfaction that only a Hacksaw will lend. Plus,a Hacksaw is easy to schlep along and aids in helping folks see the light on locale...with chronograph in tow.

The inverter in my crummy,don't wanna power either the PortaBand nor Sawzall,though LedZepplin volume will go to 11,while running a Hacksaw. Hint.(grin)

Chopping spouts on the fly,gets alotta minds right,about more than a few thangs. Them thangs include Precision,balance/handling and Wives Tales associated with .000000001" runout crowns.

Retrostalgic Old School laughs,for Dissenters. Pink Powder,168 Sugars,lopping a 308 from 26" to 21" and a purty crown that is part double-bevel Oberg and the balance RCBS deburring tool.





First trio on 100yd paper,if only to prove more than a few points and I remain at ease on ANY given day,to do so as per whim for Dissenters.



Though in fairness...I'm more than a touch whole bunch great with a rifle,but wouldn't wanna shoot a pistole or scattergun against me either.(grin)

Just sayin'.







'f7,

By God...I'm thinkin' you'd prolly onto sumptin' there,in Mitt Matchin'.(grin)

Got piles of Choptitude on 'bucket,but it don't wanna play nice,even after adding jingle.

A Hacksaw will reliably make a sound rifle,MUCH fhuqking better.

Seen it and have all the T-shirts!

Hint.







Desert,

It was a great joy andHUGE fhuqking improvement,to hack on my 1717D HB's spout. Losing nearly halfa foot of spout,put it into another realm of Hind Legged Magic.



'Course,sanding that Teutonic Bluing so it sweetened the pot and paint would stick...added an extry 27fps to the equation.(grin)



The 75MOA rail and 10x MQ,don't hurt Distant Dastardly Pursuits either,whether they're Hind Legged or MPAJ generated.

It's inherent abilities,REALLY fhuqks with heads.

Hint.






'farmer,

I never knew balance/handling could be skewed,with stock fill weight or careful contour selection!?!

Who'da' thunk?(grin)

I'm gonna try me one of them there MacaMillion stocks and build a Custom Rifle some day.

Laffin'!







'stw,

I've never built a 300Super/30STW/30-8mmRemMag over 30"(Heavy Palma). Hint.

Pardon my having shot/got it all and then some...which affords me the "unfair" advantage,of not being forced to guess. Hint.

Never been tough to cypher who shoots and who don't.

Hint.







'goat,

An extry long barrel,is handy for reaching a fish's ear,from over the top of tall gunnels. Seen it.

Hell....done it.(grin)

Hint.







Greg',

I'd not want a 14" 7STW,but had no love for my 27-incher and a vast preference for the shorter spouts,I had so chambered.

The less one has,sees or does...the "better" everything is.(grin)

In the Pre-LRF Days,The Game was played by hedging a bet,to eek all the velocity potential available,to help with a UKD Guess. There ain't too fhuqking many chamberings I've not shot/got and I've lonnnnggggggggg been at ease in The Chop,if only to see WTF do what and more importantly WHY.

Tough to beat the Sweet Satisfaction,of The Chop and the vast improvements associated with them Facts and Physics.

Seen it.

A fhuqking LOT.(grin)





'Jim,

Ray Charles could IMMEDIATELY extoll upon the unfortunate maligning of schlepping a 25.5" spout,over a lesser lengthed version of same. Though in fairness,Helen Keller could quantify upon both versions of same,with and without The Loudener. HINT.

Humor Points awarded for packing Stupid Schit and watering it down,so as to reliably not connect a single fhuqking dot.

VERY "impressive".

Laffin'!






'usa,

I go through lotsa barrels and am not into Polishing Turds. If/when they foul,throats load up or throats go away...I'm installing new. 'Course,I don't run re-treads on my crummy either and just never was any good at fhuqking around.

Barrels are cheap and my time is worth more than a little something to me. I tend to keep extry extry barrels on hand to boot,because it speeds transition from Old to New.

Could I correlate that rigidity is conducive to Precision? Assuredly. That being said,I fret a barrel's interior(land/groove geometry,Smoothicity and mannerisms),a whole fhuqking bunch more than it's exterior(contour).

If/when someone gets lippy,I'm gonna unlimber a 20" Montucky OEM contour duped(reduced shank) 1-8" 6BR(no-turn set up for Lapooey brass) and Rule the roost. Reliably.

It breaks hearts,hurts feeling and is an oft copied Blueprint,after the Dissenter's tears settle.(grin) Though I've got lotsa platforms,guilty of same.

Less IS more.

Hint.









'jano,

Boolits matter more than headstamps and a 270 will ALWAYS suck ass,due that simplistic FACT. Hint. A 21" Kredmire in a S/A will simply crush that Goat Fhuqk. Re-hint.

I've only built (5) 257Wby's,though none longer than 27.5" and only (4) at 26". I've shot a "smidge" of 25-06 and 25-06AI too,along with 25-284 and them spouts run from 21" to 26". You are DUMBER than fhuqk,if you "think" any of them .473" chamberings will approach a 257Wby. Though in fairness,they all suck ass too...again due to boolits. Easy for me to say,if only because I've shot/got it all. Re-hint.

Have only had a coupla B-78's(pistol grips,as I HATE the Engleesh "grip's" ergos) and too fhuqking many Numbah One's too. Again,a 21" Kreedmire will fhuqking throttle any/all Goat Fhuqks your Imagination and it's Pretend can concoct. The faster you start focusing boolits,the quicker you'll attain your FIRST Fhuqking Clue. Hint.

Someone who "knows" as "much" as you,is always gonna be BEST served by asking questions,rather than giving "answers". Hint.

Not that I don't appreciate the HILARITY of your AMAZING Stupidity,as you do the best you can,with what incredibly little you "have" to "work" with.

Bless your heart.

Just sayin'.

Laffin'!

I've never seen a post that said that SH. What I noticed over time is the more weight the rifle has, particularly up front, the faster they settles down so I can take the shot. Took a long time to get there. I am definitely not one who likes carrying any more weight around in rough country. But anything that helps me make the shot at one of the really nice bucks I encounter is worth considering. Trying to get on a big antlered buck as he dodges in and around Ironwood and Palo Verde trees is far harder than any other game shooting I've ever done. They give one very little time.
Ever see a serious trap shooter who preferred short barreled shotguns ? Not me. Never met one that liked light shotguns either. E

Never really cared much what trap shooters liked....I like a short, handy rifle that easy to tote, and easy to swing in a blind, stand, briar, or pickup cab.

im only on my 11th 8lb jug of rel25 in my 300stw's i got along way to go to catch up to you pros,,,,

i hope i can get there some day,,,,and see the light,,,

my wife carries a 7.8 lb 7x57 mauser with a 25 7/8in long barrel this year,,, she practiced all summer 630 rounds or so, 4 days 3000 ft elevation rain sleet wind,, after the 70 yd shot, she looks at me and says, i hate that other gun you been making me shoot,,,,,

her other gun that she has taken 37 head of big game with is a 600 remington with a 22in mtn rifle barrel in 260 rem ,,, she says, that gun is to hard to hold still, it weighs a hair under 7lbs,,, so its for sale for all you short barrel guys,

us non shooting no field experience guys will keep makin due i guess

Very well said 300stw,thks for the great writing and the Great pixs , congrats to you and Wife, Thks Oheremicus great post topic!!! theres more of us here then I thought what a good feeling that is .

I remember an old sporting JP Sauer LR M98 ( .270win) I viewed with a slender factory original 26" full octagonal
with full integral rib... weight, balance and OAL were fine....for many situations the barrel length is not a problem.

Old sporting mausers in 7x57 often had 25" barrels and old mausers in .318WR often had 26"
I don't recall african hunters of past (who used them in all kinds of country) bagging them out in
their memoirs or publications.

Well, one thing you seem to have are pieces of barrel`s....I can`t afford to do that to all mine. I have used barrels in 22 to 26 inch range with various cartridges, and have seen examples in print of varing volocities at different barrel lengths. Your posts indicate that longer barrel length may be an old wives tale and have data to suggest such. I, for one would like to see such detail as you may have, so I could learn something. I would find that interesting.
Cal`s I shoot, .22cf,.25, 7mm, .30, 8mm.
Thanks

I get 2960 from my 24" Vanguard with a 24" barrel. You may have a slow barrel. But if your happy run with it.

IIRC the story correctly, Old Jack got his 26-inch "mountain rifle" hung up on an overhead ledge while sheep hunting and got the pooey scared out of him. Also, on the same day he went through a bad brushy patch and the long barrel got snagged on everything. He had it chopped and lived happily ever after.

On the other hand you like the long barrel, give it a fair try and see how it goes. You can always have it chopped later. Cutting it because of what someone else likes, thinks, or says would be stupid. Your gun, your situation, your decision.

That's exactly what I'm going to do. Try it out. Doesn't matter what I think or feel. It's what gets those big, old, running bucks that counts. E

Maybe it’s just an esthetic thing but I just don’t like the appearance of a 26 inch tube. I do have several rifles with 24 inch barrels in .243 and 30-06, as well as my 7mm and 30 caliber magnums that I like very much. That extra 2 inches leaves me cold, but beauty is certainly in the eye of the beholder.

I have only a few with long barrels....my long range deer rifle in 300 wby....and my long range coyote rifle...a 6-284...both are hard to hunt with as the carrel is always getting caught on branches and they don't Handel as well in and out of a truck....for carry in the woods and walking I always carry somthing with a shorter barrel . A mod 70 FW in 06 or 308 an 88 or lately it's been the manlicker 257 Roberts...
I always thought 22 was a tad short for 30-06 but 23 or 24 might just be perfict..

A longer barrel allows standard cartridges and powder charges to duplicate shorter barreled magnums. Go to Hatcher's Notebook if you don't believe a 29" barrel will help .30-06 velocity, even with the powders available a long time ago.

I dont think anyone debates that fact.....the issue is that it really doesnt make a tinker's toot.