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That's what I grew up thinking, but the advent of this "Primitive Weapons" season here in LA has us shooting single shot Whelens, .444s, and .35Rem rifles at several animals each fall and winter. I'm changing that notion to "Tissue Damage Kills".

[Linked Image]


This was another animal that fell to a 358win-level handload in my 35 Whelen Apex (225NAB at 2,430fps). It quartered through him and he made it about 5 yards before piling up. Looking at the 20 or so animals we've shot on our place in recent years with that Whelen load or polymer-tipped FTX Hornady loads in 444 or 35Rem, all have been handled just as well as a 7mm RM, .270Win, 30-06, or the like. Granted, we limit shots to 250yds or so with the single shots, but even lung shots result in lots of blood and fairly short death runs. So, in light of what I've seen, my perspective has changed somewhat. There really is more than one way to skin a cat, and 200-265gr at 2,200-2,500 get things done just as well as anything when the distances are not too far and your bullet choice allows for good expansion. Some guys I know who mostly hunt shorter-range spots have taken to hunting their Primitive Weapons rifles all season long.

As an aside, that hog slid out of my truck as I bounced through some pretty good mud holes last night coming out of the woods. After dragging him up a wooden ATV ramp once already, I said screw it and pulled him out with a ratchet strap through the hocks and looped over my trailer ball. Coyotes don't care about a few scuffs and some mud on their supper. grin



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Kinda why 7x57 with 175 grainers kills so well, as does a 30-30 with 170s... laugh


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And why those old-timers still hunt with their lever guns in .35 Remington. I've got a 336 in the back of the safe and a 2-7x33 Revolution that probably should get zeroed and hunted some this year.


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My 336/Weaver K4/180's is a hog crusher.


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Congrats JPro. Hard to argue success! I’m kinda of the Elmer Keith philosophy, “ big and fast”! So far.... I’ve had pretty good luck with .375 diameters at 2900 to 3100+ fps velocities. Looking forward to trying out my 45-70 Marlin GG in the Atchafalaya Basin! memtb


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My shoulder can handle the recoil up to Whelen and .444 levels, but a .375 at 3,000 sounds sort of miserable on both ends.....


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For my point and shoot 308 I just subbed a 165 Ballistic Tip for the usual 168 match bullet on top of a modest charge of 3031. A little high at 100, a little low at 200, right at the duplex thickness transition at 300.

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I love shooting .44 and .45 caliber bullets at game. They absolutely pound stuff.

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Originally Posted by JGRaider
My 336/Weaver K4/180's is a hog crusher.


I'm going to get this one going and see how it likes the FTX loads. It's un-American that I've never killed a critter with a lever gun. Probably need to remedy that.


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Right. arrows and ML can’t kill.


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Originally Posted by JPro
My shoulder can handle the recoil up to Whelen and .444 levels, but a .375 at 3,000 sounds sort of miserable on both ends.....



Yes....recoil will get your attention, but really is quite manageable. I finally started using a PAST recoil shield, when shooting from the bench. At just under 9 lbs. scoped, loaded, and slung....you wish it was a pound or two less when carrying, and a pound or two more when shooting! It’s been my only hunting rifle (to use) since 1990, so it’s not bad ....or I’m numb! crazy memtb


You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel

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I found that I tend to lean forward too much at the bench. That puts the recoil through my shoulder and straight down my back. A higher rest to let me sit more upright helps. My shoulder will get pushed back but not my back. I can handle more recoil by sitting upright.


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Rock Chuck, A big 10-4 on that! Though I didn’t mention it. I’ve also of firm belief that a small frame (light) shooter, should be able to handle recoil better than a large (heavy) shooter. My perspective is that, the lighter person will begin to “roll with the punch” quicker than a heavy person....thereby absorbing less recoil before the body moves rearward! Don’t know if that’s factual, but... that’s my story and I stick’n to it! memtb

Last edited by memtb; 10/27/17.

You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel

“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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Big, strong macho types can take a lot more of a beating at the bench by trying to fight the recoil. Just let it roll.


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It only hurts a little while.

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I'm a fan of the Whelen, 358 Win, and 35 Rem for easy killing. No need to push them hard, bullets perform well, stuff dies quick. Blood trails are usually impressive. They give up a little range and have a little more recoil but there is something I enjoy about 35's.

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Shot placement kills.


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Originally Posted by rost495
Shot placement kills.


Very true. Watched a hunter shoot a big grizzly this past season with a bow. The bear was an old boar, very skinny, worn teeth, all the toes on one foot were gone and he only had one ear. The other presumably chewed off in a fight at some point in his life. Anyway the bear was walking along a river bank and a guide friend of mine hid next to a bush with his hunter in an ambush attempt. The bear spotted them at about 80 yards but kept coming. He was popping his teeth the whole way in after that....a bad bear no doubt. At 22 yards my guide friend figured that was close enough, so he stood up with his rifle at the ready. The bear lifted his head slightly and the hunter slipped an arrow through his chest. The old boar turned and went 4 yards before piling up. He was dead before the hunter recovered from his shot.The hunters wife filmed the whole thing and it is by far the best hunting footage I have ever seen. The point to the story is that the arrow killed the bear as quickly as any rifle would have, only because the arrow was placed perfectly. Im not advocating using archery equipment to stop charging bears, but accuracy is still the most important thing when it comes to killing big game.

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300 grain bullet from a 405 win @ 2200 fps lays them out with little meat damage, and a huge entrance and exit hole.


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I like both my 35 Whelen and the 358 I used to own. They gave good and short blood trails every time. So does my 50 caliber TC Firehawk throwing .429 300 grain Nosler HP's at 1600 fps. A recent neck injury has sidelined the Whelen for now as all my reloads are top end and a couple shots makes my neck hurt for days.


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Anytime you plant any kind of bullet in the vitals of an animal at 2x the speed of sound or greater... it's gonna die. Doesn't matter if it's a .223 or a .458.

That being said I have a whelen project in the works right now =]

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Originally Posted by JPro
That's what I grew up thinking, but the advent of this "Primitive Weapons" season here in LA has us shooting single shot Whelens, .444s, and .35Rem rifles at several animals each fall and winter. I'm changing that notion to "Tissue Damage Kills".

[Linked Image]


This was another animal that fell to a 358win-level handload in my 35 Whelen Apex (225NAB at 2,430fps). It quartered through him and he made it about 5 yards before piling up. Looking at the 20 or so animals we've shot on our place in recent years with that Whelen load or polymer-tipped FTX Hornady loads in 444 or 35Rem, all have been handled just as well as a 7mm RM, .270Win, 30-06, or the like. Granted, we limit shots to 250yds or so with the single shots, but even lung shots result in lots of blood and fairly short death runs. So, in light of what I've seen, my perspective has changed somewhat. There really is more than one way to skin a cat, and 200-265gr at 2,200-2,500 get things done just as well as anything when the distances are not too far and your bullet choice allows for good expansion. Some guys I know who mostly hunt shorter-range spots have taken to hunting their Primitive Weapons rifles all season long.

As an aside, that hog slid out of my truck as I bounced through some pretty good mud holes last night coming out of the woods. After dragging him up a wooden ATV ramp once already, I said screw it and pulled him out with a ratchet strap through the hocks and looped over my trailer ball. Coyotes don't care about a few scuffs and some mud on their supper. grin




Is this an inside joke, or does LA consider those calibers primitive weapons?


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They do consider them 'primitive'. Mississippi also. I've seen more 35 Whelen ammo on the shelves in MS than I ever saw in AK.


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I've been hunting slow this year, and have been pleasantly surprised. Not so premium bullets perform nicely launched a bit slower, so it seems. I've been shooting the old 140 interlock out of my Creed, and it's been great for bucks. Need to kill a few more these next few weeks to really get a good look at it, but I've been surprised at good exits and the lack of blowing shoulders to smithereens like I did with more speed.

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On private land in Mississippi you can use any legal firearm,
Ronnie
Primitive Weapons
Weapons legal for use during the Primitive Weapons season are all archery equipment and primitive firearms. "Primitive firearms," for the purpose of hunting deer, are defined as single or double-barreled muzzleloading rifles of at least .38 caliber; OR single shot, breech loading, metallic cartridge rifles (.35 caliber or larger) and replicas, reproductions, or reproductions of those type rifles with an exposed hammer; OR single or double-barreled muzzleloading shotguns, with single ball or slug. All muzzleloading primitive firearms must use black powder or a black powder substitute with percussion caps, #209 shotgun primers, or flintlock ignition. "Blackpowder substitute" is defined as a substance designed, manufactured, and specifically intended to be used as a propellant in muzzleloading or other black powder firearms, excluding modern smokeless powder. Metallic cartridges may be loaded with either black powder or modern smokeless powder (cartridges purchased at sporting goods stores). Telescopic sights are allowed while hunting with any primitive firearm during the primitive weapon seasons. During any open season on deer with primitive weapons after November 30, a person may use any legal weapon of choice on private lands only, if the person is the title owner of the land, the lessee of the hunting rights on the land, a member of a hunting club leasing the hunting rights on the land, or a guest of a person specified above. If the person is required to have a hunting license, the person must have a primitive weapon license, Sportsman's License, or a Lifetime Sportsman's License.

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Quote
Is this an inside joke, or does LA consider those calibers primitive weapons?


Copied from La. Hunting Regulation handbook


LEGAL GEAR
Legal Gear for Primitive Firearms Season
includes:
–
Rifles or pistols, .44 caliber minimum, or
shotguns 10 gauge or smaller, all of
which must load exclusively from the
muzzle, use black powder or approved
substitute only, take ball, shot, or bullet
projectile only, including saboted bul
lets. All of the above may be fitted with
magnified scopes.

Single shot, breech loading rifles or sin
gle shot, breech loading pistols, .35 cali
ber or larger, having an exposed ham
mer that use metallic cartridges loaded
either with black powder or modern
smokeless powder. All of the above may
be fitted with magnified scopes.

–
Single shot, breech loading shotguns,
10 gauge or smaller, having an exposed
hammer, loaded with buckshot or slug.




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That's a good one, JPro.

I posted the Primitive hunting specs above and the 30-30 is not considered a primitive weapon. A friend of mine had a 30-30 single shot and had it bored to a .375 Win., so he could 'primitive weapon' hunt with it.


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I think it's really just a way to put extra fees on a license and generate more revenue. It made a little more sense back when we could shoot single shots of .375 or greater. A 444 or 45-70 isn't that much different in performance from in-line muzzleloaders. But in reality, a full-house Whelen is a 400yd rifle with the right bullets.


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Speed flattens trajectory. But bullets don't kill. Speed doesn't kill. Guns don't kill. Shell casings and powder charges don't kill.
Bullet HOLES kill. This is the premise of the OPs post and he is 100% correct.

Many US Service men walk around alive today with metal in their bodies. I know from personal experience! Many of those metal pieces were put there at velocities well over that of rifle bullets, but if they hit someplace non-vital, they can be survived.

Bullet holes that penetrate vital places are what kills!

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Originally Posted by rost495
Shot placement kills.



Case closed.


I am..........disturbed.

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The .35 Whalen is fairly fast. I love my .38-55 WIN. It does a nice job. But it drop them as quick as my 257 WBY. Speed does some amazing things.

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So my single shot 7mm 08, break action, is primitive? Somebody has too many deer.


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7mm-08 is smaller than .35 Caliber.


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Penetration kills...with speed it kills quicker.

Dan

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Originally Posted by rost495
Shot placement kills.



This

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My 45-70 has the trajectory of a brick thrown off a cliff. But I guarantee it will kill anything I point it at.

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JPro,

When Mississippi originally went to the primitive weapon rules everybody down there that new me was calling because I had an in at H&R and could help them get a 45-70 or .444. Gun shops down there was putting buyers on a waiting list for the next one they got in. I had both and actually preferred the .444.

Just before I retired and moved back down there, Mississippi changed the rules to allow the Encore and 35 cal. rifles. I got 35 Whelen barrels for mine and eventually gave one to my brother. He liked it so much he's one of those guys you refer to. He hasn't used another gun for almost eight years. Last year he finally gave it a break and used I .308 Win. I bought him.

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Bought an H&R 444marlinn off a buddy a few years ago , really like it for some reason . Short stubby w/a 1.5x6-36 Bushnell 4200 firefly reticle scope , it shot 1'' groups at 50 yards with some 225gr, FTX starting loads .
It's going to be my close range treestand/blind/night hunting gun , going to try the shade tree ceramic coat paint on it .
Got some 300gr. pistol bullets sitting on the shelf , should really knock the stuffing out of a big hog .

As I mature [get older] these type guns appeal to me more and more b/c they appear to work just fine .

JPro you're being way too nice to those coyotes ..
Nice hog !


PRESIDENT TRUMP 2024/2028 !!!!!!!!!!


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Rifles are like cars. When you're young, you want fast and sporty. As you get older, you want comfort and reliability.


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Originally Posted by ol_mike
Bought an H&R 444marlinn off a buddy a few years ago , really like it for some reason . Short stubby w/a 1.5x6-36 Bushnell 4200 firefly reticle scope , it shot 1'' groups at 50 yards with some 225gr, FTX starting loads .
It's going to be my close range treestand/blind/night hunting gun , going to try the shade tree ceramic coat paint on it .
Got some 300gr. pistol bullets sitting on the shelf , should really knock the stuffing out of a big hog .

As I mature [get older] these type guns appeal to me more and more b/c they appear to work just fine .

JPro you're being way too nice to those coyotes ..
Nice hog !


I want to get an H&R .444

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Originally Posted by Dantheman
Penetration kills...with speed it kills quicker.
Dan

Originally Posted by Skatchewan
Originally Posted by rost495
Shot placement kills.

This


Speed not only kills quicker AND
Speed helps make shot placement easier AT distance.

Try this -- throw a heavy bullet and hit a deer ANYWHERE and see if you can even wound it !

Even a 45-70 has speed.


Jerry

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Originally Posted by Steve Redgwell
Rifles are like cars. When you're young, you want fast and sporty. As you get older, you want comfort and reliability.



Agreed. You could throw women in that mix also.


The chances they come, and the chances they go.
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I killed two Louisiana does last weekend with my .38-55 WIN in H&R Target Classic. 75 yards and 110 yards. Broadside pass thrus. Both went about 40 yards. 255 grain Buffalo Bore bullets.

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Originally Posted by a12
I killed two Louisiana does last weekend with my .38-55 WIN in H&R Target Classic. 75 yards and 110 yards. Broadside pass thrus. Both went about 40 yards. 255 grain Buffalo Bore bullets.



Sweet!

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Originally Posted by ingwe
Kinda why 7x57 with 175 grainers kills so well, as does a 30-30 with 170s... laugh

160 grainers in a 6.5x55 and the 220gr/30-06 comes to mind as well.

I have 400pcs of Hornady 175gr RN ready for my 275Rigby.

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Originally Posted by moosemike
Originally Posted by ol_mike
Bought an H&R 444marlinn off a buddy a few years ago , really like it for some reason . Short stubby w/a 1.5x6-36 Bushnell 4200 firefly reticle scope , it shot 1'' groups at 50 yards with some 225gr, FTX starting loads .
It's going to be my close range treestand/blind/night hunting gun , going to try the shade tree ceramic coat paint on it .
Got some 300gr. pistol bullets sitting on the shelf , should really knock the stuffing out of a big hog .

As I mature [get older] these type guns appeal to me more and more b/c they appear to work just fine .

JPro you're being way too nice to those coyotes ..
Nice hog !


I want to get an H&R .444

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mike ,

I went on aldeer.com [alalbama deer] and looked up a sale ad from a couple of months ago H&R 444 but he wants too much IMO . $375 , I'll keep an eye out and alert you if I see a good deal on one .


PRESIDENT TRUMP 2024/2028 !!!!!!!!!!


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So 30-30, 6.5 Sweede, 7 and 8x57, or 30-06 are not as primitive as 35 Whelen or 358?

The first few listed were 60 years old when the 358 was born!


Nice to see the PAGC has company on the short bus.


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