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#12394946 11/13/17
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rost495 Offline OP
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I had a line on a used 458 Rem, it fell through best I can tell.

Have to buy a gun in the next year or so for Alaska. I am not at all concerned on looks. Accuracy has to be decent. Reliability for big bears a must.

Is the synthetic stock on their guns worth the money? Or just buy the cheapest CZ and put an MC on it?

Any other input about affordable 458s, leaning hard to the lott and be able to run standard 458 in it most of the time... is welcome.

Good and bad on the CZ also welcome.

Thanks, and sorry about interrupting the African forum with an AK question.

Thanks, Jeff


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Jeff,

The CZ's are big, solid, strong, dependable actions. I have owned a couple and they will feed anything you put in them. I did not like the factory triggers. The one I still have has the Number two upgrade from American Hunting rifles. One of the items Wayne changes is the factory trigger to a nice crisp one and adds a three position safety. The other downside to the CZ is they are heavy. The action is huge and perfect for a 505 Gibbs but really a little large for some rounds. However, you could probably put five 458 rounds down the magazine and close the bolt.

I like the Winchester Model 70s (or my left hand world the Montana Rifle version). People who own the Whitworths love them. Both of these options are readily available. this is an example this is a Whitworth listed on Guns International.

Whitworth

In regards to a Lott or Win Mag, if you find a rifle chambered in either one buy it and be happy. not enough difference between the two to worry about. Given the choice I would take a Lott, however would not even hesitate to buy a Win Mag.

The CZ is going to be heavy in the mountains or hunting moose in the thickets. The Winchester or the Whitworth will definitely be better to carry.

Have your considered a 375 H&H? Many more of potential rifles, lighter, less recoil, shoots a little flatter, etc.

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I've had two CZ 550s and found them very clubby, but they work all the time. Unlike many I love the set triggers, probably because I've used set triggers for over 50 years. I can well understand why many guys don't like the CZ triggers, however.

My CZs were a 416 Rigby and a 458 Win.

I have also had Whitworths, two in 375 and a 458 Win. I far preferred carrying and using the Whitworths. They pointed much better for me and were "faster". The difference was like pointing your finger or pointing a baseball bat.


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I have a mark X Mauser in458 win.(whitworth) . Much prefer it to any CZ I've ever handled,

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I have a CZ 550 American Safari Magnum in 458 Lott. I like the rifle and, also unlike many, like the set trigger when it works right. I have no regrets that it doesn't have a brake or that it's in 458 Lott rather than 458 Winchester Magnum. Any you can put 5 rounds in the magazine and close the bolt. Now for a list of the negatives:

1. The CZ 550 rifles in the heavy recoiling cartridges have a reputation for cracking wood stocks if they don't have crossbolts. I had the action in mine glass bedded which the gunsmith said should work fine. I've had no problems with the stock so far. Given the choice, I'd probably go with a composite stock.

2. A screw became loose that holds the trigger to the action. First the gun discharged when I set the trigger (an unpleasant surprise). Then the gun started discharging when the bolt was closed (downright dangerous). I was going to change the trigger but the one Timney sent me didn't fit and they said it was the only one they made for my gun so, I put Lock Tite on the screw and hopefully won't have more problems.

3. CZ 550 rifles sometimes need a little work to make them feed smoothly. If I were going after dangerous game with mine, I'd probably have a little work done since feeding isn't as smooth as I'd like but it feeds well enough for the dangerous Whitetail Deer I'll be hunting with it this year (LOL). Now my Blaser R 93 feeds smooth as snot.

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If you are open to a project rifle, I bought a CZ 550 375 on here a while back. The bolt was lost in delivery somehow. I'd sell the barreled action (minus bolt) for less than a bare action would run you if you're open to a project. The factory stock was cracked, but I picked up a B&C for it which is really well done. If that interests you, shoot me a PM and we can discuss details.

My plan was to send it to Wayne at AHR to put the finishing touches on. If you don't take it, that still might be in the cards in the near future.

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rost495 Offline OP
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Thanks for the feedback. Looks like its time to dump the CZ idea and look to whitworth etc...

Tarheelpwr, don't really want a project gun either at this time in my life. But as noted seems the CZ isn't where I should head anyway.

Jeff


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My two cents: If you're happy with the Whitworth two position safety, blued steel & wood, then the Whitworths are definitely worth a look. Nice Mauser action and a little lighter than the Winchesters. The Winchester M70 has the 3 position safety but the Safari Expresses tend to be a little heavy in the barrel. If you're intent on the .458, the M70s might be less barrel heavy that if you went with the .375 or .416. If you insist on getting a .458 Lott, either the Whitworths or the M70s can be made into a Lott with little trouble (I believe).

I'd personally look for a stainless/synthetic M70 Classic in .375 H&H if I was hunting bears in AK. That's exactly what I used the last time I hunted Browns up there. The rifle is admittedly heavier than it needs to be with that large diameter barrel, but it shoots great and the stainless/synthetic is well worth it in Brown Bear country.

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I have a 4 H shooter that lives in AK as a guide. I take his word, that a 375 in the wrong place, can be a bit on the light side. So I"ve written off that gun. Have a 338-378 in a #1 thats almost as big as one anyway...

Just want an stopping repeater with no questions asked.

Will look more for Whitworths. I don't like 3 position safety at all so I'd prefer not to end up with a 70... if at all possible.

I agree on SS/Synthetic. OTOH living there in AK in a few years I can probably figure out how to maintain a blued gun if need be.... salt bath nitride would be the first step. Everything costs though. LOL.

FIgure I could find a used 458 at some point, someone that didn't like the recoil or just bought for a single safari or such etc....


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Well, based on your latest response, I believe you're on the right track with the Whitworths. Yes, you can coat the blued steel and yes you can find a synthetic stock to put on it. That will almost equate to an all-weather gun. Of course, like you say, a blued/wood stock rifle, properly cared for, can do just fine. Not like no one ever hunted before stainless rifles showed up. I understand also about your desire for a .458. I've got several .375s and my .416, but still have a hankering for a .458 someday. I'd get the Lott as well, or have it converted to the Lott, just because! Good luck in your search!

Oh yeah...I forgot to mention that the CZ set trigger can be adjusted so that the factory trigger becomes a single stage trigger and you can set it for a hunting pull weight of 3 lbs. or so. I'm also positive that you can get a synthetic stock for them as well, so I wouldn't necessarily write the CZ off. The action and barrel might weigh a bit more than the Whitworth, but I wouldn't think it would be that much more.

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My brown bear guide had a CZ 458 Lott with the barrel cut to 20". He used the open sights. Pretty slick package.


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I have a ZKK 602 re-chambered to 450 Ackley. I think it feeds better now than when it was a .458. Barrel is pretty light due to the big hole in it so to me, at least, it doesn't feel any heavier than the Whitworth. CZs are pretty tough and normally shoot well.

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My earlier comments were about the CZ550. I have no experience with the 602.

For all practical purposes a stainless steel 375 H&H (or Ruger) with a composite stock would be the better choice, but the heart wants what the heart wants, it is why I hunt with a 470 double in Africa.

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If I wanted a nice wood stocked 458, an AHR CZ would be up on the list.

If I wanted a utility stopping rifle, I’d get a 416 Ruger Alaskan or similar.


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Originally Posted by MadMooner
If I wanted a nice wood stocked 458, an AHR CZ would be up on the list.

If I wanted a utility stopping rifle, I’d get a 416 Ruger Alaskan or similar.



The Ruger 416 would be an excellent choice, IMO.

I bought one dead-nuts cheap on line when they first became generally available, just to try one out. It was a T H M P E R !! eek
I passed it along to a younger fearless buyer. With its 416 Rigby/Rem mag ballistics and 400gr bullets you would be well served.

Good idea, Mooner.


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Interesting comments on the stopper stuff.

I tend to trust my guide buddy who has been guiding the big bears spring and fall for enough years now that I can't recall how many, over 10... mostly with a 338 Win mag but he has made the comment that 45 cal is very obviously the one that does the best.

That said he now carries a 416 Ruger that was a tip.... but he would have preferred 45.... But he shot his own big bear with his 338 and said after that one, he'd never use the 338 agian. LOL.

Its all fine until its not. And I've never seen an issue with a bullet to wide.

And now all this and I get an offer to buy a 338 Lapua at a pretty cheap price... wants and needs.. may have to buy the Lapua and put the 458 off another 6 months or so.


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I can't comment first hand on the stopping ability between a .416 and a .458, but I personally wouldn't hesitate with either.

I like the CZ's. They are just big and heavy. Riding around in a Land Rover, I'm sure they are great. Crawling through Alaskan brush with 10#'s of gun and 25" of barrel, maybe not so much. Chop the barrel at 20" and put it in a decent synthetic and it would probably be great.

I might be tempted to find a PF or classic M70 in 458 and do the same to it. I like M70 triggers and likely more stock choices inletted for a Win M70 .


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rost495 Offline OP
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I've loved the 416 Rem mags I've shot, both 700s... but I hear Rems suck... LOL. Would not hesitate if I found one of those under a grand I suspect. Good luck there.

But if I gotta pay more, may as well get more. 458 wins are not hard in the recoil area, while I hear the extra speed of the Lott sucks. LOL.


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Rost - I enjoy your posts. Have you shot one of the great bears? Just wondering.

I'm a fan of the good ol' Rem 700 push feed, and how well it works. Action is big enough to take a pretty danged big cartridge too.

Thanks, Guy

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Well known Alaska Peninsula outfitter Dick Gunlogson, retired now, and all of his bear guides carried .338 WM Model 70s and shot 300 grain Winchester ammo in preference to all other choices. Worked or im. I don't think the 300 grain is still available in factory ammo, but other bullets will do.. I like the .416 idea but I really think anything from .338 up will work if properly bulleted. BTW the .378 Waatherby is a bear thumper.


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