Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Another Barnes BangFlop

I've seen the pic a few times Tom, and I just now noticed the Texas sticker.

Scott..I put that on just to bait Stick...I have since removed it

Gospel, by two of the most respected members of the Fire. And they reflect my observations as well.

Well, yeah. Things go flop when you play mafia assassin. Were you in Dallas, Nov '63??

Burned my tag on this one last week to remove it from the gene pool..6.5 127gr LRX from my Swede broke both shoulders at 310 yds and keep on truckin. They Do work !

My buddy always teases me and calls them "armor piercing" but they have worked well for me every time. Probably a hundred or so critters.

Which one reflects your observations? They have differing conclusions

My own experience of about 135 Barnes kills leads me to the same conclusion as Ingwe.

A. That I like what Ingwe says
B. That from what I have observed, I defer to John's experience.

Hard?

Get that man a Snickers...

Some comments, since my observations have been brought up:

I've been using Barnes X-Bullets pretty much since they appeared, including the original version, the blue-coated XLC, the TSX, and Tipped TSX. In fact I used Original X's exclusively in a 6.5x55, and frequently in other rifles, before the TSX appeared.

Have witnessed many of my hunting companions use them as well. Probably my wife has been the most frequently observed. Among other animals, she provided Connie Brooks with the first "field report" on an elk killed with the then brand-new TSX in 2003 (a 140 .270) but she's also used TSX's and TTSX's on a bunch of other animals. This includes her latest elk, taken a few weeks ago with a 130 TTSX from a .308 Winchester. But the other observations include a cull hunt in Africa with a dozen other hunters in 2007 where almost 200 animals were taken, at least a third with the TSX.

Have also used and witnessed other monolithics being used considerably. Probably most were Nosler E-Tips, since they appeared the same year as the TTSX, but also have experience with Hornady GMX's from the 70-grain .224 (which I used this fall on a pronghorn, taken at 350 yards) to 250-grain 9.3's. So far I've been unable to tell any difference in field results with any of the three different bullets, though shooting them into media can usually find some nit-picky variations in penetration and expansion.

During that period I've paced or measured how far animals went after pure rib shots, not involving the spine or shoulders, with a bunch of different bullets. I did find that monolithics result in a little longer run-before-drop than lead-cored bullets, especially lead-cores that expand violently. Maybe three years ago I averaged the results of hundreds of animals, finding the shortest runs were from Berger Hunting VLD's, averaging 18 yards, the longest from monolithics, around 50 yards. Other bullets ended up somewhere between those extremes. But those are averages, and individual animals varied, of course, though I also found more rib-shot bang-flops with Bergers than any other bullets.

It's always interesting to read reports of "bang-flops," since so many hunters fail to differentiate between pure rib shots and those that hit the central nervous system, and/or break shoulders. In my experience, the easiest way to guarantee a bang-flop is to shoot the shoulders about a third of the way down from the top, since this usually also hits the spine, or comes very close. This is indeed a good way to drop 'em with TSX's or other monolithics, but doesn't require a monolithic. I've done the same thing, and seen it done, with many other bullets, including some cup-and-cores that many hunters wouldn't recommend for the purpose. A couple years ago in Texas, as a matter of fact, I bang-flopped several culled whitetail does with the "blue box" 100-grain Federal .243 Winchester load, using the high-shoulder/spine shot--and all the bullets even exited.

The virtue of this shot with monolithics is it doesn't destroy as much meat as with lead-cored bullets, and while that's true on average I've seen plenty of meat damage with monos with shoulder shots. Eileen's elk this fall was a big cow quartering toward her at about 250 yards. She put the 130 TTSX in the near shoulder, the logical shot placement, and the cow staggered maybe 25 yards and keeled over. The bullet had broken the base of the scapula just above the big shoulder joint, and when butchering Eileen weighed the meat she considered not salvageable, which came to 5 pounds, and she isn't super-picky about what gets ground into burger.. Another bullet might have ruined twice as much, or more, but no, we could not "eat up to the hole."

There is a difference between bang-flops that hit bone or spine, and those that hit only ribs. My notes on hundreds of animals indicate rib shots result in far few bang-flops with monolithics than lead-cored bullets, and the animals go farther as well. The difference isn't vast, but it's there.

My experience with the original X bullets (blue XLC version) was they they were very unreliable when it came to expansion. I was using my 7mm RM exclusively with them, 3020fps M.V.

A broadside shot on a coyote at 100 yards gave straight-down-and-out results but no visible entrance or exit wound. Another coyote had a softball-sized, "U" shaped hole in its back - obviously from a spine hit. A buck antelope took two broadside at about 300 yards. I lay down abut kept its head up as if sunning itself. After I circled around to the back side for a closer shot, it struggled to its feet and took a couple steps. A third 160g XLC hit the heart and finally put it out of its misery.

At that point I quit using the XLCs and never used the TSX on game. TTSX (and now LRX) have been excellent performers in every rifle in which they've been tried and on every animal on which they've been used. Still running over 50% bang-flops with them. Longest run has been around 25-35 yards and that was unusually long.

I can understand why people hesitate to use them but a bullet that performs the way they do, in the limited collective experience of my hunting group, and can run the length of a mule deer with an exit, is a bullet I'll keep using.

John,

Thank you! I don't have the discipline nor opportunity for such extensive documented research and I strongly appreciate yours. I've used several bullets and read about bullets for years and yet learned a new tidbit from this latest post of yours. Good stuff!

Watch "Wild Boar Vs 300 WSM 150 gr Barnes TTSX" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/1M09YPWCt_c

Watch "140gr TTSX bullet performance issues on Fallow Doe hit twice by a 7mm-08" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/CzUt_Mpwjxo

Hello from New Zealand

I have had experience with two Red deer shot with 140 TSXs out of a 7mm08. I don't know the specifics of the load as I was guiding a client and it was his rifle.

1. A red hind, 49 yards side on. I was watching through 10x25 Leica's at the time and the animal was feeding. The shot was through the crease half way up the body, I observed no impact at all and thought it was a clean miss. As the animal ran to cover it did miss a half step and that was all.
In such cases I generally sit down and eat my apple, which we did even though the client was all for the chase.
As we entered the bush I naturally started tracking down hill, the client went up. The long and short of it is the animal was hit exactly where the client aimed and had gone up a 45 degree slope for 80 yards before expiring. No bone was hit.

2. A large red stag. 180ish yards on dusk. The animal did not die well, but it did die so was it a failure? At the time I was very interested in trying them myself but based only on a sample of two to be fair I don't think they are for me.

Maybe the speed was to low or the weight too high, I don't know but the 140 Sierra HPGK's I have used in my 7mm08 and 270 have never acted like the above and as stated it is only a sample of two.

Like an old mate used to say "lead is dead".

Have a good day.

Troy_Tempest,

The TSX is not a TTSX. 140 from a 7-08 is not following directions. Should have been 120 or lighter.

I had an interesting experience yesterday with a 185gr .338 TTSX (2,750-2,800fps) and a feral sow that was maybe 180lbs. Double-lunged her at 160yds in an attempt to save the shoulders and it knocked her flat, which is unusual on these animals. I thought I'd maybe pulled into the shoulders or spine, but it was actually a rear lung hit. She got her feet under her after 3-4 seconds and managed to make it a few yards to the brush. Ran about 25 yards afterwards. Lungs were pretty much soup, but I was most impressed with the "whomp-factor" when no big bones were hit. I'm going to try to shoot some more stuff with this load and see what's what.

Thanks for that post John. Saved me that typing.I always get a lot of entertainment of guys posting the bang flops with Barnes,especially when they post photo of a spine shot. Cripes, don' t they think about it. My favorite is of course the double lung, missing the shoulder.Any animal hit dead center thru both the lungs,not too far forward and not too far back is going to run until all the blood stops flowing.They sure are not going to run several hundred yards.Any animal that takes out the spine is going flop. Any animal that has both shoulder broke is going to keel over,but can certainly take another round too end it's suffering.

Any bullet that does it's job to get there will kill and elk and it doesn't have to have a blue tip.

Heck,I could really start an argument by posting a photo of 7x8 bull I took with a180gr Game King that was bang flop.Base of the neck thru the spine. Everyone knows that Game Kings come apart and can't do the job.

After watching that video I've come to a couple of conclusions.

One is that the bullet was fully expanded to the base of the cavity. That would be pretty remarkable given the extremely shallow penetration.

The other is that the doe was probably not the first animal or thing hit by the bullet. My guess is that it passed completely through another animal before striking the doe in the neck. That would account for a loss of velocity consistent with the shallow penetration as well as the full expansion.

[Edited to add...]
After watching the video one more time on a larger screen, I could see the second hit was to the right ham. I also read the text below the video,which explained things. This bullet in question "passed through the entire length of the Doe, further damaging the lungs and was recovered from her neck". So, instead of an entrance wound as I previously thought, the neck wound was an exit wound with the bullet base leading the way.

Thought it was pretty strange that a TTSX would have such shallow penetration as my hunting group has never recovered one. Full-length penetration, that I would expect.

[End edit]

If i wasnt concerned about lead in my meat I would never run a mono metal bullet.