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I know it's a pretty big topic in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. Just wondering if modern logging operations have impacted hunting and maybe destroyed some of your old favorite hunting areas in other parts of Canada?

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The lack of logging has ruined a lot of our hunting..


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Originally Posted by WyoCoyoteHunter
The lack of logging has ruined a lot of our hunting..


Same here - so thick you can't see 40'

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Logging only makes my hunting better. The only thing I can't stand is the use of herbicides. But after a year the willows come back. My opinion log it replant it move to the next block.

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If done right logging can enhance hunting, but the use of chemicals to keep the willows at bay are not good. Access is the real problem. Logging roads means more hunters and that puts more stress on big game. Very few hunters are aware of how stress effects big game. It can actually kill them.

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Originally Posted by yukon254
If done right logging can enhance hunting, but the use of chemicals to keep the willows at bay are not good. Access is the real problem. Logging roads means more hunters and that puts more stress on big game. Very few hunters are aware of how stress effects big game. It can actually kill them.


Very true. The increased access has impacted the area we used to hunt much more than the actual logging did. A once great place to hunt moose and mule deer was completely devoid of wildlife. For many years we had enjoyed great hunting, then last year I drew a long awaited Antlered moose tag only to find no moose at all. We hunted hard for a week and saw no tracks, even after a fresh snowfall. There were a few new roads which had opened up country we previously had humped into and always found plentiful game.
I won't draw a tag in that WMU again as it was a 5 year wait.
Hard to access cut blocks are fantastic magnets for game, from grouse to bears, deer, elk and moose as well as furbearers. The cut blocks were there as were too many roads. A darn shame!

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Elelbean: Clear cutting and logging enhanced MANY areas I Hunted for Black Bear, Elk and Blacktailed Deer while I lived in Washington state.
Sadly logging became politically incorrect and Hunting opportunities began diminishing severely.
Now Americans buy more and more of their lumber/plywood from Canada!
Sad that.
Bring on the loggers keep our forests "healthy".
Hold into the wind
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Didn't hurt a thing when i had all the big trees cut out of the woods behind my house. Actually it helped. Started seeing a lot more deer.
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The comments here concerning how "logging" keeps "forests" somehow "healthy" are simplistic to the extreme and such nonsense is one aspect of the crisis in environmental management here in BC.

SOME types of timber harvesting, done properly, can and do allow for SOME species of wildlife to increase and others destroy habitat for other species. Perhaps, the best known example is the Mountain Caribou, extirpation in the Kootenay region of BC, one of the legendary hunting venues for big game since the late 19thC. While, the mature Engelmann Spruce-W.White Pine forests existed and relatively few apex predators, largely Wolves, were at minimal pop. levels, the Caribou, were healthy and at huntable pop. levels.

The clear-cutting, mechanized logging, destroyed their major food source, the "Cladonia" that requires these forest types to exist and that began the decline to the current situation, essentially extinction. Certainly, the logging road access contributed to this as the predators could more easily travel on the weather-firmed snow cover along these roads than the prey could/does.

I can describe other such devastating and unacceptable effects of logging in BC, especially the once-fabulous Kootenays, where the finest native trout and wild sheep hunting anywhere once existed, but, this example should suffice.

Can this be rectified and this paradise restored, well, IMHO, with 60+ years of bush experience there, NO, the damage is done and current game populations and fish stocks demonstrate this, IMHO.

I base this on my experiences in the BCFS, BCF&W, various conservation groups in the region and studies at the college there. My family lives there and will have for 125 years next spring and I discussed this with scores of oldtimers as a boy and young man, starting about age 12, 1958.

SOOOOO, we all NEED to reconsider our attitudes concerning logging and other resource harvesting and change our approach to such activities.

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The BEST places to hunt in SC are clearcuts that are from 2-6 years old... like a giant salad bar that the animals can live in and eat to their hearts content.


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Originally Posted by SNAP
The comments here concerning how "logging" keeps "forests" somehow "healthy" are simplistic to the extreme and such nonsense is one aspect of the crisis in environmental management here in BC.

SOME types of timber harvesting, done properly, can and do allow for SOME species of wildlife to increase and others destroy habitat for other species. Perhaps, the best known example is the Mountain Caribou, extirpation in the Kootenay region of BC, one of the legendary hunting venues for big game since the late 19thC. While, the mature Engelmann Spruce-W.White Pine forests existed and relatively few apex predators, largely Wolves, were at minimal pop. levels, the Caribou, were healthy and at huntable pop. levels.

The clear-cutting, mechanized logging, destroyed their major food source, the "Cladonia" that requires these forest types to exist and that began the decline to the current situation, essentially extinction. Certainly, the logging road access contributed to this as the predators could more easily travel on the weather-firmed snow cover along these roads than the prey could/does.

I can describe other such devastating and unacceptable effects of logging in BC, especially the once-fabulous Kootenays, where the finest native trout and wild sheep hunting anywhere once existed, but, this example should suffice.

Can this be rectified and this paradise restored, well, IMHO, with 60+ years of bush experience there, NO, the damage is done and current game populations and fish stocks demonstrate this, IMHO.

I base this on my experiences in the BCFS, BCF&W, various conservation groups in the region and studies at the college there. My family lives there and will have for 125 years next spring and I discussed this with scores of oldtimers as a boy and young man, starting about age 12, 1958.

SOOOOO, we all NEED to reconsider our attitudes concerning logging and other resource harvesting and change our approach to such activities.


While I do agree with some of this, I strongly disagree with your take on the caribou in the Kootenay region. Wolf populations were low because they were managed, primarily by outfitters and trappers. I saw a piece on CBC news where they tried to say snowmobiles were the problem, much in the same way you are saying logging roads are. What they were claiming was that snowmobile trails made it possible for wolves to access areas they couldn't before. Supposedly these were areas where the caribou wintered. These claims are nothing short of absurd, laughable really. Wolves can go anywhere a caribou can, they don't need logging roads or snowmobile trails. They have been doing it for centuries. Any trapper knows this. Ever seen a caribou trail in the winter?? Wolves follow those trails, or make their own. I have seen wolves travel for miles through 4 feet of fresh snow. They travel single file and switch out often. Their trails often look like one animal made it as they step in each others tracks. Trappers call this "trailing". The wolves will use these same trails all winter. They become highways and are great places to make sets. In an average year I will spend 6-9 months out on the land, hunting, trapping. There are zero logging roads up here. Wherever you find ungulates you will find wolves....period. Just about every caribou herd in Canada are in decline ( moose too for that matter) our biologists go out of their way to point their fingers at anything but the real problem....the real problem is quite simply predators. Both bears and wolves. Logging has its problems no doubt, but until more people realize just how bad our predator problem is, nothing will change. Alaska is a great example as to how effective predator control can be.... just look at what they have done with the 40-mile herd.

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Sorry, you need to read more carefully and, frankly, CBC, is about the LAST source I would trust on ANY issue in Canada, especially any aspect of environmental management, social/cultural factual truth or correct English usage and grammar.

There WERE wolves back in the day, they WERE there since before my experience began and NOW are FAR more numerous. As to trappers, etc, my cousin has one of the largest lines in the area and his observations from these and his flying agree with my comments.

One very frequently sees bears, wolves, cats and so forth, ungulates included, using the networks of resource roads to travel as the terrain and understory is SO difficult and dense in the Kootenays, which is what I am discussing and the sign left is very obvious in winter or even summer.

I have no personal bush experience in the Yukon or AK and so do not comment on the situation there, and am ONLY commenting on what I have experienced where I was born, raised and worked for decades.

I might also ask just how much time you have spent in the Kootenays, as snow machines have been and are a concern there as they have been and still are used to harass animals and their noisy presence can move elk, for example, when doing so can cause stress to these animals at a very difficult time of year.

So, predators ARE a problem, but, there are different issues in the Kootenays to those in the Yukon, in certain respects.

I do not share your seeming problems with bios., but, certainly SOME are dorks and we have those here by the dozen....."Raincoast"?

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The forests will recover from logging, but game animals won't recover from the roads left from logging..............


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I don't know about other areas, but where I get around, logging has been going on for over a hundred years.


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In the Northeast small time logging operations that used horses and eventually small machinery opened up areas and increased a lot of game populations. This all changed in the 1980s when modern machinery allowed corporations to cut large swaths of land. I'm talking several square kms in no time at all. A lot of deer wintering areas are now gone. It's sad to see.

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Originally Posted by SNAP
Sorry, you need to read more carefully and, frankly, CBC, is about the LAST source I would trust on ANY issue in Canada, especially any aspect of environmental management, social/cultural factual truth or correct English usage and grammar.

There WERE wolves back in the day, they WERE there since before my experience began and NOW are FAR more numerous. As to trappers, etc, my cousin has one of the largest lines in the area and his observations from these and his flying agree with my comments.

One very frequently sees bears, wolves, cats and so forth, ungulates included, using the networks of resource roads to travel as the terrain and understory is SO difficult and dense in the Kootenays, which is what I am discussing and the sign left is very obvious in winter or even summer.

I have no personal bush experience in the Yukon or AK and so do not comment on the situation there, and am ONLY commenting on what I have experienced where I was born, raised and worked for decades.

I might also ask just how much time you have spent in the Kootenays, as snow machines have been and are a concern there as they have been and still are used to harass animals and their noisy presence can move elk, for example, when doing so can cause stress to these animals at a very difficult time of year.

So, predators ARE a problem, but, there are different issues in the Kootenays to those in the Yukon, in certain respects.

I do not share your seeming problems with bios., but, certainly SOME are dorks and we have those here by the dozen....."Raincoast"?






I grew up in BC, am very familiar with the area, and the caribou you speak of. Yes I agree snow machines ARE a problem....but not because of the trails they leave. Snowmachine traffic can stress animals to the point that they will die. Caribou are especially susceptible to that. There is a small herd that winter right near my house...I see them daily. The snow machine traffic here doesn't bother them because nobody chases them, and the traffic is light. Down your way its another story altogether.

I also agree with you that there always have been wolves, but they are more numerous now. The fact that they ARE more numerous is a big part of the problem. Just a couple of decades ago there were a lot more active trappers, and old school outfitters did their own predator control. That practice was quite common in northern BC until the early to mid nineties. Anyone who hunted that country in the 80s or 90s will have witnessed some of the highest game densities Canada has ever seen, including predators. Im not suggesting that logging has zero effect, I just don't believe it is the main cause for the herds decline.

Yes I have a big problem with our wildlife managers ( bios) they are doing a terrible job, from coast to coast. Ive worked with a few and have been involved with a few programs. Ive watched them outright lie and change the results to suit their own opinions on more than one occasion. Of course there are good biologists that do great work, but a lot of them have preconceived opinions and are loathe to change them. As we speak one of Yukons carnivore biologists is trying to cut our wolverine season even though her "study" clearly shows our harvest to be balanced AND sustainable. I knew what her end game was from day one and voiced that opinion at the time....now Yukon trappers find ourselves fighting a fight there is no reason for.

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Originally Posted by yukon254
If done right logging can enhance hunting, but the use of chemicals to keep the willows at bay are not good. Access is the real problem. Logging roads means more hunters and that puts more stress on big game. Very few hunters are aware of how stress effects big game. It can actually kill them.

yukon254;
Good evening to you sir, I trust all is well in your part of the world tonight.

I've not been up to the Yukon since the early '70's and mean to get up there to visit some friends who live in Whitehorse but somehow every year goes by and I've not yet made it, which means I can't speak for that part of western Canada.

Here in the south Okanagan however, we're seeing very much what you describe. Not only do the logging roads mean more hunters, but there's been a huge jump in the number of off road vehicles over the last 15 odd years. By that I mean we used to see folks hunting on quads before that, but now we're seeing motorcycles, quads and side by sides year round.

More people enjoying the outdoors is good on one hand, but for sure and certain it stresses the local wildlife and we've seen number plummet in areas which are heavily used by the off road riders.

Speaking broadly I'd say fires have been much more beneficial to wildlife than the logging, but the logging has of course created habitat and feed too. The old timers used to tell me there were no moose here in the late '50's until the larger logging blocks started and the hardwood regrowth gave them something to eat.

Anyway I'm not anti logging by any stretch, but we should be deactivating the roads much quicker than we are now and doing it in such a way that only D8 can go back up the road when they're done. A ripper behind said D8 should be able to do that I'd think - they do it in some places and it works.

Lastly the bio question is one deep and wide to be sure - some I've thought much more of than others that's for sure and certain. wink

All the best to you this winter sir.

Dwayne


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In BC logging in itself is great for game and hunting, the roads aren't, the wolves dont need the roads but they sure use them to hunt on.
Logging is good but fire is better for game and hunting, roads built during either operation are bad news.

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Removal of all the bug wood has opened up B.C no doubt.. But if we didn't remove those infected trees our fire season would be so much worst. It's bad enough now fire wise.

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Originally Posted by BC30cal
Originally Posted by yukon254
If done right logging can enhance hunting, but the use of chemicals to keep the willows at bay are not good. Access is the real problem. Logging roads means more hunters and that puts more stress on big game. Very few hunters are aware of how stress effects big game. It can actually kill them.

yukon254;
Good evening to you sir, I trust all is well in your part of the world tonight.

I've not been up to the Yukon since the early '70's and mean to get up there to visit some friends who live in Whitehorse but somehow every year goes by and I've not yet made it, which means I can't speak for that part of western Canada.

Here in the south Okanagan however, we're seeing very much what you describe. Not only do the logging roads mean more hunters, but there's been a huge jump in the number of off road vehicles over the last 15 odd years. By that I mean we used to see folks hunting on quads before that, but now we're seeing motorcycles, quads and side by sides year round.

More people enjoying the outdoors is good on one hand, but for sure and certain it stresses the local wildlife and we've seen number plummet in areas which are heavily used by the off road riders.

Speaking broadly I'd say fires have been much more beneficial to wildlife than the logging, but the logging has of course created habitat and feed too. The old timers used to tell me there were no moose here in the late '50's until the larger logging blocks started and the hardwood regrowth gave them something to eat.

Anyway I'm not anti logging by any stretch, but we should be deactivating the roads much quicker than we are now and doing it in such a way that only D8 can go back up the road when they're done. A ripper behind said D8 should be able to do that I'd think - they do it in some places and it works.

Lastly the bio question is one deep and wide to be sure - some I've thought much more of than others that's for sure and certain. wink

All the best to you this winter sir.

Dwayne


Dwayne, our part of the world is a wee bit chilly tonight. -37 as I write this. Very little snow yet - only an inch here at home so I am stuck tending the fire until we get enough to use sleds on the trapline.

In regard to forest fires, my experience mirrors yours. They are much more beneficial than logging. Moose in particular love old burns. Luckily we have a lot of them in southeast Yukon. I own a fishing lodge, and a trapline in that part of the country and its a rare summer that we don't see some fire activity. Forestry won't fight them unless a building is threatened so we get a lot of new moose pasture each summer!

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