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Re: Can I shoot 375 Winchester ammunition in my 38 [Re: DaveKing] #1231150 02/04/07
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or Pugs (heck, even ME!)

No, there's a difference between aggressive but competent bold and "Hold my beer and watch this" bold.

I have met Yeager, Deke Slayton, "Hoot" Gibson, John Young, Bob Crippen, Joe Engle, Mike Smith and several other famous pilots and astronauts. I have flown and worked with a host of combat pilots. All of them were bold in the sense of being willing to push the corners of the envelope to achieve an immediate and pressing result. None of them were in any way "bold" in the sense of wildness or insanity.

But that's far from the point of this thread. The point being: Load safe and you'll shoot often. Load crazy and you may shoot only once.


Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.

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Re: Can I shoot 375 Winchester ammunition in my 38 [Re: RockyRaab] #1231246 02/04/07
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Best to let it go Dave. The intent of your original post is irrelevant; the thread no longer follows your question. It is unlikely current posters understand the intent of your original question.
The bending of your thread would have taken place without regard to the cartridge or action type under discussion. This is not a fault peculiar to this or any other Forum nor is it my intent to disparage the comments of those who have very real safety concerns over the advisability of loading cartridges to higher than SAAMI specifications.
Due to discussions on internet forums and writing in the mainstream press – as exemplified by Christian Helbig and his Gun Digest article – yours was a legitimate question with regard to bullet fit and high-performance loading data. The cartridge in question has been loaded to higher velocity levels for quite some time as is evidenced by examining data referenced by Phil Sharp in his book: Complete Guide To Handloading and by reading magazine columns such as the American Rifleman’s Dope Bag, as “orchestrated” by Al Barr.
All open forum discussions of high-pressure loading data for wildcat cartridges intended for use in lever-action rifles will take this turn sooner or later. And this is with posters on both sides of the issue having the best of intentions. I am not aware of an open forum where the discussion of reloading for wildcat or special use cartridges will not eventually become a heated discussion with the original intent lost in the swirl of dust from post and counter post. If there is a forum on the internet where a handloader is able to discuss reloading for cartridges such as the .25-35AI, .30-30AI, .30-.348AI or other high-performance wildcat lever-action cartridges, I am not aware of it.

William Iorg


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Re: Can I shoot 375 Winchester ammunition in my 38 [Re: william_iorg] #1240459 02/09/07
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Things have changed quite a bit since the time of phil sharpe.
In his day, 38-55s were loaded with special high velocity powders by the factory, for specific actions. There was lil thought or consideration for longevity of the firearm, an it was assumed that the user would be smart enuff to just use em in the offically sanctioned guns.
The 375 is not directly interchangable w/38-55. This should be obvious. There is nothin wildcat about the 375 nor 38-55, an those who load to +P+ levels are not makin a wildcat.
Even heavy loaded 38-55s were low pressure numbers compared to the 375. If I recall correct, the Western HV loads clocked at around 1750 fps with a 250 gr bullet. Using this as a baseline, even todays so called modest loads of 1850 seem a lil steep.
If you or anyone else has a burnin need to load a cartridge to the point of a grenade, an publicise it, then expect somebody to wave a red flag.
What is really irrelevant is tryin to turn every levergun cartridge into a competitor with todays short magnums for borin bolt guns.
It can be argued indefinitely about loadin levels, component choices, an action strengths, but the real value of leverguns an traditional cartridges today is their low muzzle blast, handy dimensions, fast aquisition, an effective-yep effective cartridges at what seems like crawling speeds in todays world.
Its the nature of man to always work to improve, but its also the nature of man to recall whats valuable, what works, an stick to it.

Re: Can I shoot 375 Winchester ammunition in my 38 [Re: Mak] #1240638 02/09/07
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Nicely done, Mak. Bravo.


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Re: Can I shoot 375 Winchester ammunition in my 38 [Re: RockyRaab] #1241361 02/09/07
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I went back and re-read the entire thread. I don’t believe Dave King or I ever advocated the .375 Winchester and .38-55 are or should be considered, interchangeable. Dave King was pretty clear in his initial postings the question was out of “curiosity.”
I believe my comment about the high-pressure .38-55 being treated as a wildcat or special use cartridge is reasonable – loaded to higher pressure it is not the same cartridge. I express this thought as I think of writing in the main-stream press and in books of higher-pressure loading data for the .38-55, .250 Savage and .257 Roberts as examples. Special use cartridges such as Ron Carmichaels .356 Rimless are perhaps best described as a semi-wildcat as it utilizes a standard cartridge case (.358 Winchester) loaded to a shorter overall length with different types of bullets (flat nose Vs spitzer).
I don’t believe either of us suggested loading data that would produce a “grenade” when used in a rifle of recent manufacture.
I prefer somewhat heavy for the caliber bullets in my lever-action rifles and have experience with the remarkable killing properties of the heavy bullet driven at modest velocities. I do not agree that all lever-action rifles must be short in order to be handy.
Personal experience with two 26-inch barrel .30-30’s has proven to me these are powerful and quite handy rifles. I primarily hunt West Texas whitetail deer and pigs with my lever-action rifles. I use most of the modern lever-action cartridges. I have experienced more “one-shot-dropped-in-its-tracks-kills” with the .307 Winchester and the 170-grain bullet driven at 2,350 fps than with any other modern lever-action rifle. This is not a maximum load for the .307 cartridge. The words of Townsend Whelen and T. R. Truesdell – no one hunter can gain enough experience to make definitive statements on killing power are applicable here.
As a teenager I read articles by Ken Waters (1958 Gun Digest comes to mind), Dean Grennell, P. O. Ackley, Homer Powley, Frank Hemphill, H. V. Stent, Henry Stebbins and others comments on the killing power and handiness of lever-action rifles. The effectiveness of cartridges such as the .348 Winchester and its Model 71 rifle and carbine were discussed. There were a number of discussions of wildcat cartridges such as the .30-.348 and the improved version. The .25-35AI, ,30-30AI. .308/.444 and several other wildcat cartridges were discussed and I have played with several of them – recently. I see little difference in a discussion of one of these wildcat cartridges and the high-pressure loading of the .38-55, as long as the approach is tempered with caution and a definite goal is established prior to stepping outside the lines.
In discussions of this type my skill at communicating my thoughts often comes up a bit short. Shooting and reloading is simply hobby for most of us. It should be fun and interesting. If we cannot have a reasonable discussion of these questions on a well moderated shooting forum such as the Campfire, where can we?

William Iorg

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Re: Can I shoot 375 Winchester ammunition in my 38 [Re: Mak] #1241772 02/09/07
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Originally Posted by Mak
...If you or anyone else has a burnin need to load a cartridge to the point of a grenade, an publicise it, then expect somebody to wave a red flag.

...the real value of leverguns an traditional cartridges today is their low muzzle blast, handy dimensions, fast aquisition, an effective-yep effective cartridges at what seems like crawling speeds in todays world.
Its the nature of man to always work to improve, but its also the nature of man to recall whats valuable, what works, an stick to it.


I would have to reread the thread, but I don't think anyone was recommending loading a cartridge to the point of a grenade.

Is it reasonable to shoot a .375 Marlin or a Marlin in .356 Win, both of which have the exact same receiver as a .30-30 made in the same era - per Marlin's own parts lists for the respective models? Yes.

Would Marlin would have released rifles for the 52,000 CUP .375 or .356 cartridges if they were grenades waiting to explode? Not at all likely.

Did Marlin do enough research to know if these loads would be safe or not? Almost certainly.

Is the margin of safety less than for a 38,000 CUP .30-30 built on the same receiver? Of course. But that does not mean they are unsafe.

Is a person a lunatic if they take a modern Marlin in .38-55 and load it beyond the 30,000 CUP SAAMI spec? I guess that depends on how high they take the pressures.

SAAMI MAPs
30,000 CUP .38-55
38,000 CUP .30-30
43,500 PSI .450 Marlin
44,000 CUP .444 Marlin
52,000 CUP .356 Win
52,000 CUP .375 Win

Then there are the 40,000 CUP .45-70 loads offered by various powder manufacturers that are specifically for Marlins, with Marlin's tacit approval. And the new .308 Marlin is expected to be in the mid-40's KPSI.

Seeems to me the modern Marlins can handle well above 30,000 CUP.

Does it make sense to shoot .375's in a .38-55? Not to me, for several reasons. Is it dangerous? Given the .375 bullet in an oversize .377-.378 bore, I'd say probably not.

The real value of leverguns varies depending on who is doing the valuing. I enjoy my .375 and .45-70 a lot, in spite of the additional blast and recoil compared to a .30-30 or .38-55, and I load 130's to 2500fps in the .30-30 for plinking clay pigeons at 200 yards and beyond - hardly a "crawling speed". They all have scopes, which is heresy to some folks. Not that I give a rip what others think about my levers or how they should look or what loads should be used in them. So far they have been 100% effective on game, from antelope to elk, with loads and acoutrements of my choosing.





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No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
Re: Can I shoot 375 Winchester ammunition in my 38 [Re: william_iorg] #1242309 02/10/07
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Remember how many rifles turned to shrapnel that were chambered for the .30 Newton?
Remember how howlin mad folks got when Rem released the .35 Whelen? Seems folks were overloadin that number. Read any of the threads here about folks shootin, an some of the velocities claimed? Seems I recall a recent thread where the poster was talkin 2500 fps out of a 45-70.
Folks, you have to be aware that reloading is a safe an rewarding discipline only when it is that-a discipline. I have personly known several folks whose only qualification for reloading was that they had the daneiro to buy all those nice shiny tools.
You can't talk about 375 velocities in the 38-55, for instance, without taking those steps into this zone.
Sorry, guys, but this to me is a hairs breadth away from the proverbial grenade.
One of the reasons we still admire Phil Sharpe is that he brought some science to the alchemy. Unfortunately, we still have to contend with folks who think the bigger the case, the more powder they should pour in.
These days, there are so many good cartridges, the slots where wildcats can fill is pretty small, but if thats where your at, thats fine. I've heard that Texas has a few really good ballisticians, and they have the advanced equipment to study things like pressure an which powders work best. Why not look em up, you might be on to the next fun thing-your wilcat.

Re: Can I shoot 375 Winchester ammunition in my 38 [Re: Coyote_Hunter] #1242317 02/10/07
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Well, it happened again, just heard about another gun blow up and yep-it blew up with reloads. The first five or six went just fine, but somwhere in the next series of shootin, kaboom. Yep, there was injury.
I've got to say, that the pecieved strength of the reciever is but one part of the equation.
I've got say, that nothin here is indended as a personal attack, it is intended as a call to responsibility, to discretion and to sound practice. Accidents can happen to anyone, but when we follow safe procedures, we minimize that chance.
Weve already covered the pressure issues, weve already covered the 375/38-55 and right now, I have little to add about it.
Its not about scopes, guys, its not about huntin, an its not about about bein onery. Its about SAFE SOUND PRACTICE.
Good luck n good shootin

Re: Can I shoot 375 Winchester ammunition in my 38 [Re: Mak] #1242595 02/10/07
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Mak -

I don't know anything about the rifles that were chambered for the Newton, nor are they relevant, except its a reminder as to why I don't shoot antiques. The question at hand regards Marlins of modern manufacture.

By the way, 2500fps out of a .45-70 is perfectly reasonable - depending on the rifle used. In a Ruger #1 a 300g can easily be pushed that fast. Under 50,000 CUP according to Hodgdon. Definitely not something I would try in my Marlin.

On another forum I was blasted by the owner for suggesting that someone might find that .38-55 brass , resized in a .375 die, fit their Marlin .375 Win better than .375 brass, as it does mine and several other Marln 375's of which I am aware. He also blasted me for suggesting velocities that might be obtained by doing so, even though the velocities and pressures I was discussing were well below maximum for the .375 Win. The owner later admitted he had no idea what pressures or velocities were or what the situation was with Marlin 375 rifle chambers as he had no experience with the caliber. He was just blindly working off the idea that you don't fire a rifle using brass with a different headstamp than what is on the barrel. (Guess all the guys reforming brass into a different cartridge are doing something dangerous, regardless of the situation.) The owner looked like a fool and later deleted the entire thread.

The Marlin 1985 is chambered for the 28,000 CUP .45-70 cartridge, yet 40,000 CUP data abounds and Marlin doesn't complain. If the 40,000 CUP data was dangerous you can bet that Marlin would insist that the data providers not list the data as being safe in Marlin rifles.

It might be that Marlin, when Marlina was making 38-55 Cowboy rifles a few years back, went to the expense and effort of designing completely new receivers and made them substantially weaker than the receivers used in other 336's, when the raw recievers Marlin was already using would have worked just as well with no or only minor modifications to the final dimensions (like perhaps a slightly longer ejection port). The economics of modern manufacturing dictate reusing the same basic receiver, just as they have done before.

The situation is very much like that with my .257 Roberts, a Ruger M77. The .257 Roberts has a SAAMI limit of 45,000 CUP yet Ruger chambers the same receiver for cartridges that go as high as 54,000 CUP or 65,000 PSI. It is little wonder that I feel perfectly safe using +P data provided by powder manufacturers when loading for the Roberts.

There are a couple points here. The first is that the modern Marlin .38-55's are not necessarliy a grenade waiting to go off if the 30,000 CUP .38-55 SAAMI pressures are exceeded - it depends on the pressure being reached. Do I recommend doing so? No. The second is that each reloading situation needs to be evaluated on its own merits. Using +P data or loads is not necessarily unsafe simply because it is +P.

Is it possible to safely obtain .375 Win velocities in a Marln .38-55? I wouldn't try it for a number of reasons. Do I think firing a .375 Win in a .38-55 marlin is going to cause it to explode? Not likely, for a number of reasons, including the .378" bore diameter Marlin used in the .38-55s and resultant lower pressures. Could it? Its possible - stainless Sako rifles were blowing up with factory loads, too. Are the results likely to be satisfactory. Probably not.




Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
Re: Can I shoot 375 Winchester ammunition in my 38 [Re: Coyote_Hunter] #1243737 02/11/07
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CH
I brought up the Newton an the Whelen to point out that wilcats often enuf operate at wilcat pressures, an that as I said before, this can lead to fireworks of the wrong kind.
I dunno about this other forum, an if you are drawin a parallel, be corrected that I'm not personally attackin anybody, an if the other parrallel is that I'm an idiot like this other guy-well, you are welcome to your point of view.
I'm gettin to the point of repeatin myself again and again here, but I do it, cuz folks on this electronic gizmo seem to think that like the guy with the 45-70 Marlin, that anything goes.
I'm gettin to think that we have a large number of suisidal reloaders in this country.
Headstamps can be a convenient method for organizing cartridges according to pressure, it all depends on your system.
Pressure for any hobby reloader are at best an indirect estimate, I wont go into all the variables, I'm gettin too tired to delve back into it all.
Pressure variations are common even with factory loads, we need to expect it, thus we need to cut the potential for accident down-for high pressure loads, my opinion is to use suitable heavy duty brass.
I've worked with a friend who I consider to be one of the best hobby reloaders I've ever known, and the thing about this hobby to remember is that everything effects everthing else-get it right an you'll take home the lever action silhouette trophy, do it wrong, an well...
So, if you want get your 2500 fps. I could say go get you a 458 Win mag., leave the 45-70 alone. I could say the 38-55 will do anything its supposed to do at 1500-1700fps, but it won't matter, there'll still be some suicide jockey whos smarter n me, who will justify the desire for extra speed, an who will argue about it till the cows come home.
I'm tired of this thread, but I still need to reiterate to any who are reading this that reloading is potentially dangerous, potentially deadly, an if you follow the rules, you'll stay safe, and that if you really think your smart enuff to break the rules, well, youre probably not.
Said my piece.

IC-B

Re: Can I shoot 375 Winchester ammunition in my 38 [Re: Mak] #1244613 02/11/07
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Mak -

It was absolutely NOT my intent to suggest you were a fool. In fact I think we agree on much more than it might look like to some reading our posts.

Pushing a 300g bullet to 2500fps in a Marlin is suicidal IMHO - a point I was not clear on in my previous post.


Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
Re: Can I shoot 375 Winchester ammunition in my 38 [Re: Coyote_Hunter] #1426914 05/11/07
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Dave,

Here is a link to a very interesting thread on the Lever-guns board.

The new unprimed .375 Winchester cases run 2.010” as I measure them but some list them at 2.020”.
The current production Winchester .38-55 cases measure 2.080”.
The few original .38-55 cases I have measure 2.129”.

I wish this poster would have measured the center case in the picture and given us its length.
This will certainly warrant some caution on the part of those who have anxiously awaiting the original length Starline .38-55 brass. A chamber cast is a necessity prior to proceeding with over length cartridge cases.

This particular example validates the view taken by Rocky with regard to shooting .38-55 ammunition in the .375 Winchester. I still believe that your well thought out approach to this question is valid but the picture is a good example of the result of shooting the original length .38-55 cases in the shorter .375 Winchester chamber.
I still believe Winchesters conservative approach with regard to bullet diameter and case length was well thought out and will prevent accidents if a .375 Winchester cartridge is inadvertently fired in a .38-55 rifle of modern construction.

Here is a link to the thread and very interesting – if limited - comments.

http://leverguns.sixgunner.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=29427


Slim
Re: Can I shoot 375 Winchester ammunition in my 38 [Re: william_iorg] #1468743 06/04/07
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Interesting thread, glad I found it.

Dave, I haven't tried 375 ammo in the 38-55 CB since I hardly ever use factory stuff. But I can offer the following data fired in a CB with .3809" grooves.

All loads use Benchmark:
Horn 220FP 375"/37 gr =2001 f/s
Barn 255FP 375"/35 gr =1847
Barn 255FP 377"/35 gr =1892
CP260LFNGC 380"/36 gr =1989

The low sigma and small group with the Horn indicates that they may be slugging up somewhat.
The 377 Barnes grouped much better than the 375 version though the Cast Performance is the overall winner by a long shot. Pardon the pun.
As you discovered, OAL is best kept well controlled.

SOS
And yes, I still have all my fingers, and the cases extract effortlessly, though I consider the above loads max in my rifle.


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Re: Can I shoot 375 Winchester ammunition in my 38 [Re: Savuti] #1469840 06/05/07
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Has anyone tried 32 Special cartridges in a 38-55?

How about 30-30 in a 32 Spec.?

.

Re: Can I shoot 375 Winchester ammunition in my 38 [Re: JBLEDSOE] #1470129 06/05/07
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There are stupid people and there are people that are stupid. Argue semantics all day long and it still ends up the same.

All this post does is point up the fact that...no matter what is said...it will be mis-construed, mis-interpreted, mis-read, mis-understood and mis-spelled.

No matter the amount of rhetoric or how well or poorly presented,after a few people have uttered their tripe, it turns into a bunch of people running around with their puds in one hand and a keyboard in the other, beating both to death and not getting any satisfaction from either.

Some mindless people think it is great fun to keep the pot boiling either by jerking others around, others by showing just how knowledgeable they are, and/or others by not having anything positive to do with their time and living on the net vicariously.

Oh, by the way, I have a NEF 45-70 Buffalo Classic 32" barrel that runs 300 gr Sierra, Speer or Hornady bullets well over 2600 fps using several loads out of the 2006 Hodgdon Manual at Marlin levergun pressures. When I posted that fact on one site people went nuts. It was patiently obvious that NO ONE who went berserk really read or understood the words. I pointed out ALL the facts yet those without a clue started jaw flapping. I don't post ANY reloading information what-so-ever now.

Way too many people don't have a real clue about reloading, a limted understanding of the basic principles of how to go about reloading, yet will argue incessantly using their limited knowledge, interminably...while the "experts" do the opposite...argue interminably from an elitist position...neither perform any kind of usefull service to and for the reloading community...just to their own highly inflated egos.

Wonder which ones will go to hammering in response to this post? I would bet on all.




Re: Can I shoot 375 Winchester ammunition in my 38 [Re: NFG] #1470286 06/05/07
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Forgot to mention, Buffalo Bore makes a 38-55+P load listed as 255gr cast @ 1950 f/s. Must have rifles blowing up left and right.

SOS


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which cannot be broken by woman.
Re: Can I shoot 375 Winchester ammunition in my 38 [Re: Savuti] #2169433 04/25/08
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Dear Dave King;

I don't know if you're still around, but I thought I'd tell you my experience with this question.

20 years ago, handloaders increasingly loaded the 45 Colt cartridge to warmer levels than the old SAAMI specs for the cartridge. When this happened, we heard those handloaders were crazy. Eventually, though, the loads were standardized in 'modern firearms', and it became normalized within the shooting community. Reloading manuals included the data, all of them eventually accepting it. There are very few people interested in your question so it is unlikely the 38/55 warm loads will ever become standardized.

There is no difference in the situation regarding the 38/55 and the 375 We are talking about pretty much sraight walled cartridges that headspace on the rim. In a modern firearm, I decided to load the Marlin 336 chambered in 38/55 more robustly than the ancient SAAMI specs. It is a personal decision.

Of course there are insults waiting for one who goes off the path. All the reloading manuals tell you the two cartridges are not the same, and the 375 loadings are not safe in 38/55 rifles, making no distinction between modern rifles and ancient ones.
Thus naysayers have the documentation to back up their position. There is no point in discussing this. They'll tell you you'll blow your rifle and go straight to hades- exactly what Bowen and Linebaugh and Keith and others were told when they warmed the 45 Colt. And they'll tell you exactly what nay sayers to the warmed up loads for the 45/70 were told 20 years ago when that ancient round was reexamined. All the loading manuals at the time said not to warm the 45/70, that the rifles and brass could not take it. Well, we see where that went; there are now 3 or even 4 levels of load data for the 45/70, depending upon shooting platform.
Ken Waters is not bad company to be in today.

I would watch the brass carefully. I've experienced no problem, and have been doing this for years. I'm the quality assurance for my decision, and as I said, it is a personal decision. Your
original posts raised all the relevant points.

munk


Re: Can I shoot 375 Winchester ammunition in my 38 [Re: munk] #2169464 04/25/08
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People urging caution regarding this matter are correct. We've all seen reloaders who just can't leave a cartridge alone, and push it past its limits. For years the 45 Colt was used as an example- every other reloading manual showing a blown cylinder out of a Ruger blackhawk. Reloading manuals are our Bibles. We trust them. There is a plentitude of people proposing unsafe reloading practises, so we don't allow change to the reloading manuals unless it is very carefully thought out and turns the test of time.

35/55 warm loads will not have a sufficient 'lobbying' group to move the peg forward.

It is because of old rifles that Marlin made the 450 marlin. It is because of old rifles that Winchester made the 375 Winchester.


I will not make any reccomendation for others, but I've reached my own decisions regarding the 38/55 and warmer loads.

It is a difficult topic and I don't anticipate a resolution.

Does anyone here have experience loading the 32 H&R mag to equivelent SAAMI pressures of the 357 and 41, 44 mag in a modern handgun? Does anyone say that is unsafe and dangerous? It is a common practise among knowledgeable re-loaders. It cannot be done in a HR firearm. I doubt anyone is going to publish data nor reccomend it.

Are many aware that the 32/20 was loaded hot in suitable firearms for the NRA hunter shooting classification? Was this a bad thing? Several reloading manuals used to have this data.

There is even warmed data for the 45 acp!!

The truth is the 38/55 simply does not have enough fans to get this issue seen clearly.

I think the bottom line to this and other reloading questions are, "Who is doing the reloading?"

munk

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