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Tahnka Offline OP
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Sometimes, guns find you.

This Farmingdale Shiloh Sharps was ordered by a retired gunsmith in my area, represented as a .40-65. Upon receipt, he actually managed to chamber a .40-65 cartridge in the gun, and fired it. What resulted was a fat-bottomed case with a VERY long neck. Upon further examination, he realized this gun was actually chambered in .40-50 Sharps Bottleneck (the very smallest original Sharps cartridge).

Returning it to the gunshop handling the shipping, the gun was awaiting being sent back to the seller when I walked in. The gunshop proprietor, knowing my interests, allowed me to look at it. I asked him to call the (disappointed) purchaser, and in a short conversation, I bought the gun, saving all the trouble and expense of the rifle going back east.

Initial loads and groups were disappointing: some "groups" spanning the length and width of the 8x10 sheet of target paper. After much experimentation, and especially after trying a very long and very heavy 400g Snover-style bullet, all came together in dramatic and rapid fashion. The addition of MVA sights allows this gun to produce groups easily in the 1" neighborhood consistently. It is now what I call a "boring" gun, since it does exactly what it is told all the time.

My goal this year was to carry this unusual gun, and fill my Montana goat tag with a nice buck. I missed a good one on opening day (he was at 130-140yds, and I had only targeted this gun at 100: at least that is my excuse). Five more days of carrying the Sharps on each and every stalk, resulted in this nice buck. The shot was at 110yds. The 400g Snover-style projectile rocketed out of the muzzle at a blistering 1186fps, caught the buck perfectly behind the left shoulder, and exited in the forward section of the right shoulder (the exit can be seen just under the forearm of the Sharps, giving entire new meaning to the phrase, "eat right up to the hole"). The Pronghorn tried to depart with the rest of the herd but his extension cord pulled out of the wall at about 30 yards, and he went down hard with all four feet in the air.

And "That's how we do it in the West!"

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Nice job! Great buck and fine shooting.

Now you need to master paper patched loads..:)

I have only owned 45/70 Shilohs to date..I have an order about to come up at the factory and am thinking about a 45/50BN as a low recoil Silhouette rifle..

What barrel weight is your rifle ? What powder did you settle on? Any compression?

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Beauty! And nice shot!
Great story too.! Thanks for sharing!

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Never, never, ever underestimate the killing effectiveness of a long, heavy for caliber cast bullet at a moderate velocity. Seen it entirely too often to question it...and on game a lot bigger than a prairie goat!!!!!

Wonderful story, thanks for sharing, nice goat and the rifle is a Shiloh...what's to add?


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Tahnka Offline OP
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I believe this is what is called a "Standard Weight" barrel, measuring exactly 1" across the flats. The bullet (as supplied by Buffalo Arms) is a .408 Snover-style, weighing 400grains, with SPG lube, over a Walters .060 Wad. The charge is 50grains (imagine that!) of Swiss ffG, over a Federal Gold Match 215 Magnum primer. OAL is 2.73". Compression is what I would call "moderately firm", with a roll crimp applied in the 3rd grease groove.

My notes say:
"Neck size/expanded (once-fired Starline formed brass) just .366 from mouth to achieve seating depth to be roll crimped in 3rd grease groove (from front). Exposed grease grooves require care in handling of loaded cartridge. Seating and crimping done seperately: die will not accomodate doing both at once."

Regarding bullet to case size ratio, for those old enough to remember a certain 7up ad campaign, this might be called "The Un-Weatherby".

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/galleries/12416332/40-50-sharps-bottleneck


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T,

Thanks for the loading specs. I have talked to other folks who have usèd the 45/50 BN for target work and your load is very similar to most others for use out to 500 yard Rams in Silhouette.

I wonder, if your rifle is an early Farmingdale gun, does it have the longer paper patch style throat in the chamber? My previous measurements led me to believe that most current spec 40/50 BNs have similar length throats to 46/65 s and would require a reduced diameter front driving band slug to get a 410-420g bullet that far out of the case.


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You may be absolutely correct regarding the throat. Serial number here in the 4 thousand range. This would explain perfectly why the "disappointed purchaser" was able to feed it a .40-65 (and being a veteran gunsmith most probably would have had more radar up if doing so was difficult). It would also explain perfectly why my initial experiments with bullets in the 300-350gr range produced dismal accuracy (such "freebore" may be the secret to Weatherby's success, but in the "un-Weatherby" a potential detriment when using normal weight bullets-and no paper patch).

Have not (and probably won't) do a chamber cast, but your morsel offered here is I think valuable. As to paper-patching, no plans to go there either. The gun currently averages 1.25" groups (100yds), with a number of clusters produced in the .85 range (and probably my fault...also a number that approach 1.5"). Since I am a hunter, not a competitor with these guns, such is sufficient, and I don't need another arts and crafts project. Plus, that extremely top-heavy cartridge is downright weird looking, and therefore appeals to me. I do want to play with it at 200 (perhaps 300) yards, just to record readings on the tang sight, and see if MOA results remain consistent, fall off, or (as in some cases) even improve.

Also have a .45-70 Montana Roughrider with fancy options that would qualify it in Texas as a "Barbecue Gun", ordered in the early '80's, and a Jaeger Rifle in .30-40 Krag that was bought from Wolfgang personally. Both have taken Pronghorns, and the Jaeger makes Rockchuck hunting a whole different game. It is my observation that these early guns with more hand-work done exhibit fit and finish that is not seen in the newer stuff. No flies on Shiloh's current quality, but I wager anyone familiar with the guns could pick out an older one from a newer one pretty darn quick with no help from a serial number.


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Well T , given that serial range ,I bet you do indeed have a paper patch throated rifle....And its darned heartening to hear that grease grooved bullets can be made to work in them if someone is willing to do a bit of experimenting.

I am glad it all came together for you in such a fine fashion.

Thanks for your detailed replies and info. I will file it away in my data bank with the rest of my mental notes on " All things Sharps".

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There is a worlds difference between the wet dream cylinder free bore old Wolfgang came up with over the original funnel transition used in the original sharps. Don't confuse the two.

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Originally Posted by Kurt71
There is a worlds difference between the wet dream cylinder free bore old Wolfgang came up with over the original funnel transition used in the original sharps. Don't confuse the two.


I never said I confused them..but thanks for the warning:)

And Wolfgang was not the one who dreamed it up....John Schoftstall did.

That silliness was stopped once the guns only had Shiloh on the barrel .

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Pedersoli also did a fine job copying that chamber with their early 74's smile

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Originally Posted by Kurt71
Pedersoli also did a fine job copying that chamber with their early 74's smile


LOL yeah..I know. They had a bit of a learning curve.

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In my load notes it specifies a .366 depth of expander (after sizing neck and in preparation for seating). This is as a result of something elementary to veteran BP cartridge loaders that I learned with my .45-70:

With accuracy the goal, no soft lead bullet can be pressed into a case in a fashion that deforms the bullet in the least manner.

In the case of this cartridge, a precise neck expander puts the neck in a diameter of no damage to the bullet when seated.

The detriment is that the brass actually does NOT hold the bullet. It is merely put there.

If we "size" (undersize) the neck in the big die, then perfectly expand that neck with our perfect diameter expanding die, there is only mild "press fit " for the bullet.

The .366 measurement here is a cheater backstop. I set the die to put the bullet's base at the bottom bevel of where the expander reached when the heavy bullet was seated with a slim wad and moderate compressiion on the powder charge..

Only the bottom bevel in the neck, supporting the base of the bullet, working against the moderate roll crimp in the 3rd grease groove, hold this bullet in this brass to make it a transportable cartridge. NO neck tension. Just two purchase points on this bullet.

I am a Babe in the Woods with this stuff, learning all the time. too damned willing to learn on my own, and I take advice from others with hard consideration.

Last edited by Tahnka; 11/26/17.

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Originally Posted by Tahnka
In my load notes it specifies a .366 depth of expander (after sizing neck and in preparation for seating). This is as a result of something elementary to veteran BP cartridge loaders that I learned with my .45-70:

With accuracy the goal, no soft lead bullet can be pressed into a case in a fashion that deforms the bullet in the least manner.

In the case of this cartridge, a precise neck expander puts the neck in a diameter of no damage to the bullet when seated.

The detriment is that the brass actually does NOT hold the bullet. It is merely put there.

If we "size" (undersize) the neck in the big die, then perfectly expand that neck with our perfect diameter expanding die, there is only mild "press fit " for the bullet.

The .366 measurement here is a cheater backstop. I set the die to put the bullet's base at the bottom bevel of where the expander reached when the heavy bullet was seated with a slim wad and moderate compressiion on the powder charge..

Only the bottom bevel in the neck, supporting the base of the bullet, working against the moderate roll crimp in the 3rd grease groove, hold this bullet in this brass to make it a transportable cartridge. NO neck tension. Just two purchase points on this bullet.

I am a Babe in the Woods with this stuff, learning all the time. too damned willing to learn on my own, and I take advice from others with hard consideration.


Well, during the time was clawing my way up in NRA BPCR silhouette classifications, I found that the four things that affect start pressure are powder charge compression, neck tension, case mouth crimp and how far the bullet is off the lands.
I went the easy route by sticking with 45-70 rifles that all had modern spec chambers . My BPCR loads usually used 1-20 Alloy


In my hunting loads with grease groove bullets Iwould usually fully seat and crimp the bullet over a heavilly compressed charge of 70g or more. They always shot very well( about like your .40 loads). I always use a powder compression die to pre compress my overpowder wad and powder charge before I seat the bullets.I am also very careful to set up my seater die so the bullet JUST rests firmly on the wad with no extra pressure appied to the nose. I also am careful to make sure the bullet seater stem precisely fits the bullet nose. I usually had a seater stem for each bullet shape and often "bedded" the seater stem cavity with JB weld to exactly fit each design. When everything us set up right, there us no bullet deformation even with neck tension on the slug.

For my.match loads over time, I preffered to simply slip fit my bullets. It was done not to improve accuracy, as I had many fixed bullet loads with neck tension that shot with match grade accuracy. I did it to avoid such involved bullet seating proceedures and overworking the brass so as to not have to mess with annealing cases after many firings. I used a clean as fired case with a slightly belled mouth with no crimp. Since I had no neck tension or crimp with my slip fit loads , I used powder compression and seated the bullet engaged into the rifling to help get a consistent start pressure and clean powder burn . I always did seat the bullets out so about half the front driving band was pre-engraved by the rifling. The exact amount was dictated by how much of the case rim stuck out from the chamber that the breech block had to cam over when the gun was closed.

Bear in mind those were in factory 45/70 chambers with relatively short steep throat leades.
Given the fact that you most likely are dealing with a long gently tapered PP thoat , in terms of bullet seating depth your hands are pretty tied for hunting ammo that must withstand handling in the field.

I would experiment with various brands of 3F grade powder in your 40/50 and various amounts of conpression using a compresion die and maybe trying a smaller expander for a bit of neck tension.

Also , Saeco makes a great mold # 61740. 410g .40 cal bullet that is a longtime BPCR standard. As I recall it has about the same bearing surface as the Snover ,but has a longer bore rider section on the nose. As much as your rifle likes the Snover, it might shoot the Saeco even better. Also the Saeco 410 is flat pouinted spizter shape. It might track better in flesh too, should you ever try your 40/50 on something bigger than an antelope.

For a hunting load, are pretty much there..If you want solid MOA from the gun you have many more tricks to try out to get there.
And given your rifle's throat, a 400g straight sided Paper Patched bullet seated about as you are now seating the Snovers would be interesting as well. The only thing you would have to do different is apply a taper crimp rather than a roll crimp...

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The paths you describe certainly beat crawling on hands and knees blind. This is one of a very few guns I load for that has its own box of loading gear, components, and documentation (because of its needful attention). Printing your post and it gets tossed in the box. Thanks.


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Well done Sir!


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