Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Youth longer range hunting caliber?

6.5 Creedmoor. Load it down at first then go full bore when he’s ready. It’ll take any hooved game animal in North America with the right bullets and hardly kicks at all.

I’ve owned and used the .260 and 6.5x284 for years and would definitely recommend the Creed.

Remember children's needs are different in as far as length of pull, and a lighter trigger.

Most children will need a length of pull that is around 11" so that they can see through the scope easily. Children's fingers are not as strong as an adult's, so replace and adjust triggers accordingly.

Range time to a child is as good as hunting with their dad.

A 22/250 loaded with 60g Nosler partitions is a dragon slayer, they may never want more. Then a 243 with 100g Hornady BTSP or Flat base, or a Nosler partition will take out large frame deer at 300 yards with ease.

There is a lot of difference between an 11 year old, 13 year old, and at 15.

A common brand of factory rifle, where you can get replacement stocks, cut them and fit to the youngster as they grow will keep them and you interested in shooting.

We used Thompson Center Contenders in 30/30 and 7/30 waters with some of the nephews, they are light, unreal accurate, and they are easily handled by a youngster due to length and weight.

We grew up poor, dad had a rule, no children shooting full size guns till we were 15, then many rifles and shotguns would fit the children(they could handle them).

Easy way to measure Length of Pull for a youngster is to get them to bend their trigger finger, then measure to the crease in their arm where it bends...get ready for a shock!

Physics don't change even if we are small or not as strong as others.

All bullets slow down as they go through the air, and that means every bullet looses power as it gets farther from the muzzle.

So a "youth long range gun" is the same as a "big mans long range gun."

A cartridge and bullet that is so-so for killing game at 300 yards is not somehow better at 800 yards.

Such a question is parallel and analogues to asking "what barbell is best for my young son or daughter to compete with in the world champion weight lifting contest?" The answer is simple. The same one the biggest man uses.


First off, we do a disservice to the kids by teaching them to shoot at very long ranges at big game. That's the opposite of hunting. It's simply shooting, wounding and killing. Best to teach such marksmanship skills on gallon milk jugs.

I do like to shoot long range and I have done it of about 45 years, but "long range hunting" is like "light weight lead" or "Clinton honesty". There is no such thing.

2nd, by shooting at game at long range just to say you did it, is to give the anti-hunting foes more and valuable leverage against hunting for us all, all over the USA.

But if you insist on doing it, keep in mind that the bullet wound does the killing. The depth and diameter of the bullet hole, breaking bones and going through. If your rifle and cartridge combination does a good job at 300 yards, and results in quick humane kills you need something that gives the same size and depth of wound at the range you want to shoot.

So if we look at 100% penetration (which is far more important at 600-800 yards then it is at 200 because you will most likely NEED a good blood trail, and you will not be able to walk right to the exact spot of the hit as easily) and lets say, a cavity of at least 1" in diameter.

What gun will do that?
Well not ANY that are light, short and have low levels of recoil. NONE!!!!

The ones that do well are the 300 mags with bullet of 200 grains and 220 grains, some of the biggest 8MMs the big 338s and the 9.3X62 does well. So does the 375H&H.and the very best ones are the 416 Barret, 408 CheyTac and the 50 BMG.

So the kids needs to get tough, so recoil is not a problem, and strong enough to carry a heavy rifle, and probably both.

"Long range" is a term that needs to be defined. Is long range 400 yards? or 600? Or 800? Or 1400?
There is often a very notable difference in the effects of a bullet at 400 and 600. There is ALWAYS a big difference between 400 and 1000 yards.

And the target............ is that a 140 pound deer or a 900 pound bull elk?
Elk need bullets that break MUCH bigger bones, and go about 50% to 75% deeper then deer bullets. An elk doesn't die easier just because he is farther away. In fact it's harder to put them down at longer ranges.

And your rifles needs to do the job well if you jump the elk at only 50 yards instead of seeing it at 600. Your rifle needs to cover all the bases. But in reality, such a rifle has not been invented, so we get as close to the "perfect rifle" as we can.

If you self-impost a max range of about 500 meters you'll find that about 85% of the common deer rifles do just fine if you load the right kind of bullet in them. Past 500 meters the game starts to change and it changes a LOT at much longer ranges.

Such guns are the big ones, with the big bullets. Standard deer rifles with excellent bullets are all you need out to about 450, but beyond that, the power lever should go up a LOT and/or your bullet's performance! Bullets that work well at longer ranges usually blow up and do vert poorly at mid and close range, and the real truth is that 85% of all the game you'll kill in your life is at close to mid range. 50 to 300 yards.

If you insist on doing this, the best way to proceed is to have the kid shoot so much that he/she can put a 1st round from a cold bore on a milk jug 100% of the time. At any range they miss is a range they are not stable enough, and they should not shoot from that position or that range.

Have them shoot many many thousands of rounds of good hunting ammo with bullets made to work at 25 to 500 yards, Then have them shoot enough of the "long range bullets" to be able to hit the jug 100% of the time with that load at the long range you have in mind. HUNT with the rifle loaded with the standard ammo. When you decide to take the long shot you have time. So unload the standard ammo and re-load with the long range load. And remember that what is marketed to you as a "long range bullet" may only be a market scheme. Most of the LR bullets I have seen used are a farce to be right out front with it. (there....I said it) The bonded ones do work OK in most cases however. Remember..and EXIT wound is what you will really need want when you make a hit at long range.

"Youth gun" and "long range big game" are 2 things that don't mix well. They mix exactly as well as "Long Range Hunting" and "Hunting Rights". Since this has become a national fad I am seeing a lot more wounded game in the fields and I have found a lot more dead ones that someone lost. Found 4 of the just this year.

The anti-gun and anti-hunting folks know it too---- and they will take full advantage of it.

You are way better off teaching the kid to hunt when he/she is hunting, and to shoot at long range on other targets.

The best hunter doesn't need the latest or hottest cartridge of the day. Forget the 6.5 Creed and all that other fad stuff and get him that 243. It has been satisfying hunters of all ages and skill. You can always find a box of ammo in any hardware store wherever you may go and seeing you are in Montana, that is a consideration. There isn't anything newer than the 243 that will kill any deader!

While I don't agree with how the vast majority do "long range hunting".... I'm not sure which is more ridiculous- that you need a 50bmg to kill past 500 yards, that anti-hunters care what distance you shoot an animal at, or that "long range hunters" are wounding more game.


It's fine to not like certain things, but you actually should have a mediocum of experience before ranting about it.

Well now, you are 100% with in your right to have an opinion, but before you say so in print, you should have asked if I have a "mediocum of experience." (Modicum is what I think you meant to write)

I do. And a lot more then a modicum. Including several years in military service, doing exactly that.

I also, didn't write that you need a 50 BMG to kill past 500. Go back and read it again.

Your "several years in military service" says that the 300 mags with 200 and 220gr bullets and bigger are best?

No, that's from about 40years of my life being a hunting guide. In my day we didn't have 300s. Only 308s.

And I didn't say "best". I said "they do well."

"Best" is more a function of the marksmanship of the shooter, and the ability of a bullet to penetrate in a relatively straight line without blowing up or veering off.

Shooting long distances is something I have a lot of experience at. I have a range in my front yard and by walking sown the road onto public ground I can fire to 750 yards any time and any day I want to. In a 15 minute drive I can be at a place we can fire out to 1 mile.

But shooting is not hunting. And hunting is not sniping.

Assuming I have a student who has the desire, (and the money for the ammo,) I can turn about anyone into a good long range shooter. "Long range" being out to the trans-sonic range of the shooters load. I don't say I can make a world class competitor, not one but the shooter can do that, and most of them can't. But a competent and proficient shooter is what I am talking about.

I was invited to a conference about 15 years ago in New Mexico as a guest speaker. It was a "Sniper's Invitational Competition". I was asked to be in the "think tank". We hashed over guns, bullets, cartridges gear, clothing and so on, for 3 days.

When I was asked about a training course I told the others there that my idea of the Ultimate Sniper Training course" would be a bit different than what we taught in the USMC, and also what was taught in the Navy and Army. I think very highly of the courses that are being taught today, but if I were in charge (and if the budget was there for it) I would take sniper training one step farther.

If I could work my will, the course would induce the Shooting/Ballistics and Field craft, Land-Nav, Photo-Recon and Sketching, Scouting, Winderness Survival/S.E.A.R. and so on, but one thing I would add is a mandatory requirement of archery hunting.

I got a lot of shocked looks when I said that.

I then went on to explain.

Train a man in all of the above, but then give him a recurve bow, about 1 DZ arrows and let him practice on targets until he can shoot all arrows into a 6" circle at 20 yards. No sights, no triggers, no wheels and nothing too modern. I want to make this a weapon and ammunition that is not good for long range.
If I were in charge, no one would get his final sniper's badge until he could kill 6 white tail deer with that archery equipment. He has to know how to move and HUNT and not be seen by deer. Deer don't shoot back, but they have ears and eyes that makes a mans look pretty primitive. Give me a company of men that can kill Whitetails at 20 yards and closer,, with primitive equipment, and do so on demand, and then let me give them rifles that reach to 1000 yards and communications equipment that can reach Com/Sats and have all the other training too, and then let me integrate them into the Fleet Marine Force with missions that use them the way snipers should be used, and I will give the people of the USA a VERY frightened group of enemies.

I got a standing ovation.

(Too bad it will never be implemented into the course of instruction.)

But back to the OPs question.
I do have a background in long distance shooting. But I grew up hunting since I was in grade school. I am also someone what some history of political activism and I know how laws and regulations come into being. It's not done (unfortunately) by men and women that often know much about the subject they regulate. If you doubt this take a look at some of the weapons restriction I see coming out of various states.

I am 100% for the idea of a Trained Citizens Militia, and I know historically what that is supposed to be. I would LOVE it is most of our young men and girls coming out of high-school were far better at shooting and gun handling then they were are driving a car.

Again,,,If I were in charge marksmanship would be as important in school (or more-so) then PE and at least equal to Driver's Education. I'd love to be in a nation where at least 75% of the teens could hit a man sized target at 1000 yards coming out of high school, and were taught the history of what and why a "well organized Militia" is so important to a "Free State". Government is SUPPOSED to fear the people!!!!

But deer and elk are not our enemies. They are a blessing given to us by God and we should show them the respect any good Stewart should show.

Just because I can hit a deer at 1000 yards doesn't mean I should.

What is to be gained from doing that? A deer? What hunter can't get closer than that to a deer and still call himself a hunter? That's not a hunter, it's a selfish person wanting to brag, and it's like bragging about how well you can drive drunk. Or bragging about how drunk you got so that you had to sh-t yourself. It's the mark of a fool to brag about such things. Killing a deer or elk at 1000 yards is not something to brag about. Killing one at 10 yards is.

Brag about your abilities to hit a target ON DEMAND with your rifle (and do not be exaggerating) and that is impressive and will get well deserved complements from many, except corrupt politicians and those that follow them.

Such marksmanship is an outstanding skill for warfare and something tyrants fear to a huge degree. But we don't eat them and they deserve no respect if they are fomenting the destruction of your rights and the rights of your children.

But big game is not the enemy.

Respect the game as the blessing it is. They are not score cards. If you shoot, kill them clean, and never risk loosing one to try to build up your ego.

That's how I see it, and that's why I see it that way.

I goddammed near stood up and ovulated, my ownself......

6.5 Creedmoor with 140 Bergers would be a sweet rig. Glad the OP has his kid shooting. Good luck with whatever you choose.

I got a standing ovation, that one time at band camp.....

Join us on the 24hour campfire for This weeks round table discussion of children’s rifles / cartridges, our panel of experts features lively debate between a high level DOD scope drop tester, a guest speaker from The Sniper Convention Think Tank, a couple guys who were children themselves until just a few weeks ago and several gentlemen who, while well versed internet discussion texhnique and theory, haven’t been around rifles much or children at all. Let’s tune in...

You hit the nail on the head there, buddy.

Narrated by a pompous ass hole?

It’s just my narrators voice that sounds that way. I just skimm d the highlights there at the end of the thread. If you posted on your results with your kids- I’m sure there are actual pearls of wisdom in here somewhere- and apologize for not crediting you in my post!!! If this is your first contribution- I like it- we can take turns taking cheap shots at each other as we deliver color commentary. Either way is good


I posted and deleted a few times before I made that first post. Finally came back and like a dumb a s s went ahead and posted. I don’t feel that bad- one look at my post count VS time on the board will tell you I’m not the one clogging the campfire up with useless BS- but I am as human as the next guy and every once in a while I’ll go ahead and add a useless post too.

I thought it was a pretty accurate post.

Yeah- possibly it was- but that’s not the point- in the context of the discussion it was just junk that people have to filter through. A couple folks might get a laugh, a couple might get butthurt, And that’s all. It serves no purpose as far as advancing the discussion.


Sorry guys.

Sounds like 95% of Fire’ threads to me.

I know I gotta laugh out of it.... and the “pompous narrator” comment was a tongue in cheek shot back across the bow.... kinda like your post....

Back on topic.... I’ve watched close to 100 Kids make hits at 500+ yards, as young as 8 years old, running our 8.5lb .260 wearing a 3-9 Leupold. I see absolutely no reason to go anything other than .243/.260/Creed.... unless it’s an heirloom piece.

PLEASE do not take this as an arguement for the bob. First of all.

My son never liked shooting the 243. Always like the bob. That’s in otherwise identical platforms. I blame The high operating pressure, as well as the overall case design- the same as it eats barrels it makes the 243 more obnoxious for a young or inexperienced shooter. Now please try not to bog down there- I’m guessing as to why the 243 was that way for him, but I’m telling you what he told me about why he didn’t like it. Anyway the 20” 243 always had enough muzzle blast/flash etc to make it more dramatic than the bob. He just got a creed. Since it is LIGHT and short at 20” tube I’m going to load 120-123 grainers middle of the road instead of 140 and up initially. I don’t know if the slight difference in recoil between 120 and 140 will bother him but in a 6.5 lb 7mm08 I can tell a difference between 120s and 140s- so there is a difference. To this point it’s always been the blast and flash that bother him not recoil.


All that was just Long way to say 6.5mm is overall better for a kid than 6mm, noise/blast/flash/pressure probably matter more than recoil and a 6lb rifle kicks 33% harder than a 9pounder. So that’s a some things to consider. Obviously you know your kid

I’m thinking 120s or 123s- I’m ordering a handful to try- at 2800fps gets you out to 600 -650 with only about 5 mils depending on the bullet- with plenty of starch left. Probably not transonic til 800ish, maybe like 750 or so it’s pretty light. I’m hoping it’ll work well from about 50-250 more so however