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Feathered Friends.

Most people seem to be about like that. Lots of clothes, usually quality ones, but none of them really work together. As I said I really try to limit how many layers and actual items I carry and wear.

I care nothing about camouflage for hunting (have killed quite a few deer with a bow on the ground in a tie dyed shirt) and usually choose good mountaineering cloths, however for better understanding of how clothing systems can work for you or against you, any podcast with John Barklow of Sitka is worth listening to. As an aside- I don't wear much of it, if any at all, but Sitka's mountain line is about the only hunting company who's clothing is about on the same level as top mountaineering brands like Arctyrx. Sitka is making really good gear these days.

I don't recall if it is Barklow, but one of Sitka's chief designers used to work for Arc 'Teryx, and it shows in the quality of Sitka's clothing -and in the price, also! 😬

The regular Kuiu Super Down doesn’t have a whole lot of down. I think it’s under 3 oz. The Super Down Pro has 5, and I tested it in single digit temps this year. It did well enough.

The synthetics simply won’t beat 800+ fill down for weight and packability to warmth ratio.

I noticed they weren't very substantial after looking at a couple of them. I did notice the Pro series has alot more down. I was looking for 4.5-5.5 oz down in anything I bought. The one I bought is supposed to have 5+oz of 800+ down. We'll see.

Interesting and very informative discussion.

A question about the layering system some people are using. I have some FL pieces and some Kuiu pieces, but as others have stated, I don't think I am using them as a system correctly. I understand the synthetic layer when using body heat to dry out. My question concerns the mid weight. Are you saying fleece, like the Sitka Fanatic, is better than a merino wool layer, like the Kuiu Ultra Merino or the FL llano? If so, what properties does the fleece have that the merino wool does not?

I like my Kuiu Guide Jacket so hopefully I can still use it in my layering system.

thanks

Yes. Synthetics like fleece for the same warmth/weight absorb almost no water, and dry significantly faster than merino due to merinos ability to absorb water into the fibers. Merino absorbs water into the fibers, while the outside does not. That's why if both a synthetic and merino both get a little damp- the merino will feel drier. The problem is that it takes about twice as long to dry a merino versus a synthetic, and merino is not near as good at drying with body heat going from high activity to no activity.

I swore off synthetics a number of years ago (in favor of merino) - mostly due to their becoming rather odoriferous in a hurry.
But I'm back to synthetic layering for the moisture aspect alone reasoning I'd rather be drier in a hurry than a little smelly.

Formidilosus Thanks for the reply and all I can say is "well crap".

I thought that the easy solution for me was to add a synthetic layer (like the patagonia capiklene crew) under my smartwool or other merino wool layer and be good to go. But I see that is not the case.

So would wearing merino over synthetic totally neglect the benefit of the synthetic?

I've just read the entire thread and none of you has mentioned length, size or color. Being a northern guy, I've got a closet full of feather jackets, but chicken feathers come to mind when they start poking through the seams. The truck has a leather seat but before the bun warmer comes on, it is cold and I want a down puffy that is long enough to cover my butt. Normally I'm a 200# large, but those Chinese guys making my jackets are very small larges, so I can be an XL at their place and if they work at the North Face place, then I'm an XXL! Down compresses and I think that I should error on the big side for range of motion and to keep from compressing the insulating layer. Then color... I've got the bright orange mountain climbing parka and pants that goes in the stuff sack, but I can't wear that outside of my deer stand and if someone wears camo in public, people look at them like they are a terrorist. My parka has a hood, but I'd want one to zip off or be non-existent. Is there such a thing as a long down puffy thing out there that can be used in public and as an outer warm layer in a deer stand?

Don’t give up on your merino wool just yet. While it’s true that synthetics don’t absorb water, I’d much rather have merino if I’m going to be wet due to feel. My Patagonia R1 fleece feels wet and cold when it’s wet. My merino doesn’t. While it’s true the merino dries slower, it’s more comfortable to wear. So you have to decide what is best for the situation. If I’m day hunting and mostly hiking, I’d rather have the merino because I’ll be sweating and wet pretty much all day. If I can’t dry my clothes out each night, then the synthetics might get the nod.

The best place for merino is as a second layer. If you don't care about it drying, than it is "warmer when wet" than synthetics and if you have a light synthetic next to skin then it's not bad.

Thank you for sharing your experiences with us sir. They were informative and eye opening (especially about merino wool).

This discussion has been a bit of an epiphany for me. I used synthetics and wool/syn blends for 10-15 years. About 2-3-4 years ago I switch to all merino wool, not just any merino but the thicker versions (Ice Breaker 260 specifically). I've had 'mixed' results and it wasn't until Form posted and I started thinking about the issue that it became clear to me. For eastern TS sitting, the Ice Breaker 260 works excellent - not much walking, therefore no sweat, I stay warm and dry. The issue starts when I get into the hiking and sweating, then sitting that I've noticed the cold issue which is new for me. Thought I was just getting old. Putting the old part aside, my base layers were/are not drying out in the humid east unless I was able to maintain a enough body heat to do so. That's take 2-3 hours at times. Sitting in 20-30 degree temps with a wet base layer is what's making me prematurely cold. The give away is my legs and feet. I didn't develop a soaking sweat on my legs or feet, therefore they stayed warm while my upper body got cold. I knew something wasn't quite right because this is opposite of my entire life experience in cold. I was born and lived in NW PA for 40+ years, so I know cold weather.

Wearing the 260 in the west has kinda worked mostly because of less humidity but I've still gotten cold after a strenuous hike in to sit for a morning or evening.

When I recreational hike, I've noticed the same issue when I wear the Ice Breaker 260. I've worn an Outdoor Research shirt (80/20 syn/merino) that is probably 120-150 weight. It gets soaked hiking but dries fast. It dries in the length of time after I take a break and put on a puffy of some sort. Viola' warm and toasty after a brief sit.

I ordered a FL Aerowool shirt yesterday and dug out my OR lightweight syn/wool shirt. I'm wearing them hunting next week - lots of hiking, still hunting, sitting. We'll see what works.

As an aside, check out the Polar Tech website - they have pretty good descriptions of their products. I'm really curious about their Power Wool product. I'm trying a merino/syn mix first because I really like the feel of Merino against my skin. I'll trade a few extra minutes dry time for comfort - at least for the moment.

I love the Merino/Synthetic blend base layers they sold at Costco a couple years ago. It's something like %10 merino and %90 poly. Light, durable, dried pretty quick,nice weave that lets it breath fairly well, and didn't stink any worse than anything else I wear.

Cheap too. Haven't seen it in the store for a bit though.

ETA -Here it is.

https://costco97.com/paradox-mens-merino-wool-blend-base-layer-top/

Also they have a decent puffy for sitting and glassing. Not a heavy weight, but plenty for what I've used it for. Mainly sitting in temps from the low 20's up until it's too warm to wear.

Spyder Primo, or some such. Down, but not sure on the fill weight. It was about $60.

I'm a cheap bastard and a Costco slut.

ETA - This one, but in blk

https://www.costco.com/Spyder-Men's-Prymo-Down-Jacket.product.100354848.html

bwinters

I'm looking forward to your review on how those products work for you.

Thanks a lot to all of you. I wasn't even in the market but, after reading all this, I ordered myself a Kifaru Lost Park Parka. You people cost me nothing but money!

I received the EMS puffy today. I like it - its the real deal. I had a coupon and with the current sale, it cost me $110 delivered. It has 5 oz of 800 fill. Its a China product but appears solid. I'll be wearing it next week.

I also received a First Lite Woodbury jacket. First impressions: a bit heavy, less insulation than the FL Sanctuary. fit/finish is about what I've come to expect from FL. The exterior shell is very quiet. Still have residual concerns with the 'toughness' of the shell material - likely wear it next week as well.

I've been wearing several Kuiu products that fit this model. The Ultra 210 Merino hoodie is 50-50 merino to poly. I've washed it several times and let it air dry along with my Ice Breaker 260. No contest, it dries much faster than the Ice Breaker. I also purchased a Kuiu Peleton 240 hoodie. Its all synthetic and dries the quickest of the 3 mentioned. My first go-round next week will likely be my OR syn/merino lightweight shirt next to skin, Kuiu Ultra Merino 210 next. This should suffice for the hike in. A puffy and Kuiu Guide jacket be strapped/stuffed into my pack. I'll alternate for a couple of days with the FL Aerowool shirt under the Ultra 210 and see what happens.