Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors A tale of a derelict Savage 99 in .303 Sav

I have decided to document my play with a rifle if picked up for restoration and education purposes. Before I begin, I want to mention Jeff Germain and Mike Watson have been longsuffering through this with advise on parts and more. Thanks guys.

The overall condition of the piece was fair, to be charitable. The hammer was broken, extractor did not. Suffice to say a previous owner must have owned a pipe wrench, pliers, and a chisel and gunsmithed with them liberally on this gun. How can this kind of thinking be OK?

A new hammer and extractors were found, fit , and installed. (Thanks Jeff and Mike.) The feed ramp and rear of the barrel needed to be ground and polished to make any ammo feed. The chisel-gunsmithing the area has received had buggered things up very badly. I made a action and barrel vise and removed the .303 barrel. The condition of the barrel has always been a real question. After an inspection, it seemed better than I first hoped, but worn, oversized or both.

With all of the stars aligning I function tested the rifle at the range yesterday. It feeds and functions, but every single .308 diameter bullet keyholed at 25 yards. The few .311 bullets I had printed into about 3-4" and did not seem to keyhole. I re-slugged the barrel, again, finding the grooves measure .316 diameter. Lands are difficult to measure but appear to be .308. This somewhat explains the behavior with .308 & .311 bullets.

I have contemplated replacing, reboring, the barrel, but frankly the value just isn't there unless I just want to piddle with it. Still, the barrel has rifling the full length and my gut tells me it might just shoot Ok, That is, if I can find bullets large enough to gain purchase in the bore yet still fit in the .303 cases. Unsized, foreformed cases appear to accept a .315-.316 slug, but dummy rounds, so loaded are difficult to chamber and extraction.

Other than .32 pistol bullet the options for appropriate bullets are slim. I have considered 32 pistol bullets, the .316 Stopring bullet for the 8.15x46R, re-sized, .318 bullets (8mm J), even paper patched .308 bullets. Ideas are welcome.

Regard the project as a whole and if I can address the accuracy problem, it is at least theoretically possible to refurbish the rifle to a functional status, appropriate for a rifle built in 1903. I am good with wood and perform rust bluing in my shop, so the finish could be fixed. It is also good that of the appropriate parts are still still there and are all serial numbered to the receiver. So the project should not replace anything, unless there was no other option.

Alternately, if I can not solve the accuracy and functional problems, this may become a parts gun.

As I said when I started this post, the purpose was to document the project and to thank the good Samaritans who have been helping me.

Thanks for the story and I will "stayed tuned to this station" for updates. Best of luck!

I don't have the talent or patience to restore anything so admire your effort. I do have an early 1899b 30 SAV (30-30) that is at a gunsmiths. Someone had taken action apart and also totally messed up rotary magazine. Hopefully it is a functional firearm when completed providing years of service for owners down the road, the cost will simply be written off as part of Savage Syndrome.
BillR

Have the barrel re bored and chambered to 35- 303 sav? I know it's been done to a few 30-30s over the years that had worn out bores. A call to Reboreing by Jes would tell you if it's possible or if there are other options.

Lee.

Polecat,

I did speak to JES. Yes, a 35/303 is possible. JES gets $225 for the rebore. Not bad, but more than I paid for the rifle. This course leads me to thinking, "huh, if it do that then I should make it an Ackley improved version of the 35/303 to improver feeding and performance. That means custom dies, and a question whether it would require any changes to the the spool magazine. I don;t want to go there because the gorilla with the pipe wrench, chisel, and pliers buggered the screw holding the mag together so well, it is doubtful God could get them apart. Like BillR suggested this is probably an advanced case of Savage-itis combined with Ackleyism. Dan

Well, I truly admire your effort! It's a pleasure to work with someone of your apparent skill set.

I think this poor old relic belongs on the wall or such. It sounds like a money pit to me. There are probably more deserving projects ahead.

Wondering if you are using cast bullets?

That's great progress Dan! I'd vote for cast bullet experiments too. 8mm jacketed bullets seem kinda risky option for creating too much (disastrous!) case pressure. I think you've got it right about the cost of wild-catting, you'll throw a lot of money at a project that might be better spent on a new barrel (talk to CTW). If you keep your intentions on the learning it will all be well spent time and money.

Memory says the early 8x57 version used a .316 or .318 diameter bullet the 8x57J ?? Might be worth some research

A quick google search shows you can but the .316 cast bullet pretty reasonable

http://westernbullet.com/316oversize30.html

ctw sounds like he has a receiver wrench for Savage 1899, 99's. I wonder what it looks like. One gye uses two thick 1" slabs of aluminum on either side of the action for lever actions, likely supported in the middle w/a 3rd piece ,shoring up the inside of the action. I wanted to say I had a SRC .303 that had a pipe wrench used in a failed attempt to remove the barrel. It would be nice to think there is enough meat left around the chamber to support the likely lower pressures of the .303 Savage. Someday soon? I 'll put up a picture -pipe wrench teeth aren't too deep- - in my mind. ( Maybe if I peen everything back in place everything will be Ok ).

I agree with the cast bullet idea. You should be able to get some cast bullets swaged to the correct diameter somewhere. That's a whole lot easier and cheaper than a rebarrel or rebore project. Savage Syndrome, more properly Savage Obsession Syndrome, is a virulent disease! I know from experience!

Everything I've ever seen says the 303 Savage should have a .300" bore with .004" rifling. If yours is slugging out at .316" with good rifling, I'd be thinking somebody at some time rebored the rifle - or at least recut rifling on a shot out barrel. I can see being off by a couple thousands, but by 8/1000th is huge in the gun world.

I say rebarrel, rebore to 35-303, or make it a wall hanger.

I believe we are establishing why the 30-30 outran the 303. I just don't hear this kind of chatter with the 30-30.

Really? Odd, I had a WInchester 1894 made in 1898 that keyholed bullets at 50 yards.

Shot out barrels will do that.

Were Savage 303 bores always made to the same specs, and wear is accounting for the large variation in bore sizes we see?

I guess you'll need to give me more information on the large variation of bore sizes that we see. This is a sample of one, that the owner admits was bubba'd tremendously before he got it.

Bubba didn't change the bore size.

.308-.316 sound right?

I've got a barrel stamped 32-40, but it is a 32 Win Special chamber.

Obviously then, the factory chambering really sucked?

I wonder if the 32 special reamer will clean up a 32-40 chamber? Will have to look into that

I'm sure it will, Chris.

There's a special place in hell reserved for all the Bubbas who re-chambered Savage .32-40's to .32 Special. I can see the utility in it, but still...

Me again. Next evolution. I will try to address as many of the comments as I can. Cast bullets, barrel/action vise, etc.

Cast bullets are an obvious go to, but cast bullet shoot best out of a s-m-o-o-t-h barrel and this one ain;t. So, today I cast up a bunch of bullets out of pure lead with the intention of firelapping the barrel. I know this is a controversial technique, but I have done so on different project with good results. The first hurdle was how to get bullets big enough to lap, well, anything in this .316 barrel. Sooooo, I smooshed them in my vice until the .310 bullets fattened up to .317. It was surprisingly easy to get them consistent by watching the position of the vice handle. I used LBT fire lap goo, which is extremely fine, maybe 2000 grit. rolled the bulelts between two plates and loaded in the case in front of 2.5 grains of IMR 7625. The goal with firelapping is to move the bullets as slowly as possible and still exit the bore. fired 20. the bore seems to be shinier and smoother. Whether it is smooth enough, time will tell.

A couple of places appear to offer cast bullets up to .314-.315. I am tempted to try a few, but logic suggests they should be at least .3165 to shoot well from this barrel. Another idea would be to paper patch a generic .308 bullet up to .316. .308 bullets are everywhere, and I have lots of paper, and obviously way too much time.

Barrel and action vise. - The receiver "vise" was made out of soft"1 pine boards routed out to fit the profile of the receiver. These promptly cracked until I epoxied a could of layers of plywood on the back. So, soft pine to face the receiver and plywood for strength. The barrel "vise" was made out of two hunks of hedgwood (locust). The is the biological equivalent of iron. There are two blocks with a hold down the center.
The receiver side has a 7/8 hole and the other side 3/4. The four corners have 5/16 all thread with huge washers and nuts on both side. The idea is to sandwhich the receiver in the vise and the barrel between the two locust block and turn. I failed to get enough leverage so I epoxied a 5 ft 2x4 onto one of the locust blocks. Then it wanted to turn on the barrel, so I glues some .220 emery cloth into the cavity of the blocks.
Voila, that increased the purchase on the barrel enough. The barrel came off and nothing broke. Pure Rube Goldberg engineering, but the price was right and it worked.

I believe the next effort to get some accuracy will be to try the patched bullet idea and to lay in a supply of the cast bullet as close to .3165 as I can find. Frankly I am not expecting much because both patched and cast bullets want a smooth barrel. But what the heck. We'll let the testing tell the tale. More as it happens. Dan

Sometimes, counter intuitively, cast bullets will shoot ok in a rough bore. The drill is to shoot ten soft ones with normal lube at low velocity, clean with Ed's Red, dry patch, shoot ten more, repeat cleaning, repeat shooting, etc., until you have about 80 shots down the tube. The idea is to season the bore by filling the rough spots with lead. Under no circumstances take a wire brush to the bore during the break-in process, and not ever again afterward. The trick afterwards is to choose a bullet alloy and velocity that won't lead a normal barrel because from here on out you don't want to impose drastic cleaning measures that will disrupt the "seasoning". Not a guarantee, but it can't hurt to try it. Certainly jacketed bullets are verboten too unless you want to start the process all over again.

As for paper patching to get your cast bullets up to diameter, good luck. The rough bore will likely shred the paper off and wreck accuracy. But, nothing beats a try but a failure. See what happens!

Oversize bullets are available, but I would measure the throat first (chamber cast or pound cast) and try bullets sized to fit that. Anything larger, in an appropriately sized case neck may well not chamber. If say the throat is .310 (typical) I would try some dead soft .310 bullets at low velocity (1100-1200fps) and see what happens. A fast burning pistol powder might spank the base of the bullet hard enough to bump it up a few thousandths to seal the bore, something you won't get with a medium or slow burning powder.

Do keep us posted. I for one am interested anyways!

I have a Martini Cadet with a pristine .316 groove diameter, which some goofball ran a .32-20 chamber reamer into undoubtedly to circumvent needing to make/find .310 Cadet ammo. Normal soft .312-.313 diameter 100 grain pistol bullets bump up sufficiently upon discharge to seal the bore well enough to give very good accuracy and no leading.

CTW. This link was very helpful. Montana Bullet works also makes bullets up to .314, I believe. Believe I will check out both and report results after getting some of those bullets.

Next evolution.....

First thanks for the posts. Since my last I have had contact with the western bullet guy about his .314 -.316 offerings. More on that later.

I cast up some .310 bullet out of pure lead and smooshed them to .316 in an attempt to firelap the barrel. I was surprised how well I could control the diameter by the turn of the vise handle. Got them to .3155-.316 pretty easily. These bullets would seat into fired cases and just barely chamber in the throat of the rifle, so I assume I have found the upper limit of the bullet. Fire lapped 25 of the above using 2 grains of IMR 7625. Meticuously cleaned. The barrel looks better......I think.

Meanwhile a friend gave me a few Hornady .312 bullets to try. The working theory has been since the .308 bullets keyholed, the 7.62x39 .311 bullets did not keyhole and sorta kinda grouped, I would try the next size I could readily find. The goal being to see if the barrel had any accuracy potential, if fed the correct sized bullet. Today shot 5 into about 2" at 25 yards today. It was from a sitting position with elbow on knees and no other rest. The group was 8 " low, but that is a separate issue. The load was mild, 28 grains of H4895 and a 150 grain SP Hornady jacketed bullet. (Hey they were free) In the end, the shot into a group, not a pattern, so I believe the barrel might just serve.

I think the next step should be to order some cast .314-.316 bullets in a heavy-for-caliber-weight and give them a try. Like gnoahhhh suggests, it make take some tinkering to find the right combination, but we hope the long bearing surface will work well in the worn barrel.

BTW, gents, there surely must be a way top load pix on this site, but I have not yest found the tool. somebody advise me?

Next time.

Wheelerdan, go to the image gallery. upload your pictures there
right click the image you want and copy image address
paste here with [img] address...........[/img] and it will put your pics here
even i ( a cave man) can do it!

Easy to do if you use a PC/Mac. If you use a phone or tablet, it sucks.

Other choices are things like imgr.com, flickr.com, etc.

Western would have been the go to guy a decade ago but seems to have trouble filling orders lately.

Ebay could be a source of the same molds that Western uses. Unsized bullets from similar molds could be used too.

wheelerdan,

IF it was mine, I'd check out the "junk tables" at the local gun shows for another barrel for the old 99. = I've seen perfectly serviceable barrels, of various sorts, around The Alamo City shows for as little as 10-30 bucks.

LOTS of "modern Americans" wouldn't give 10 cents for a usable barrel in an "obsolete" caliber. = At the last "big show" here in SA about 1600 on Sunday I bought TWO perfectly suitable "take-offs" for 10 bucks each. = One is a Mauser sporter barrel in 9.3x57mm (The 9.3x57 has collected many moose/red deer/caribou in Europe for a century or more.) and the other was a 29" military barrel in 7x57mm off a Spanish Mauser.
(Both barrels will be used for "a project", sooner or later. - Perhaps I'll find a good 1893 Mauser action & then look for the other furniture to make-up a SA War Mauser from parts??)

yours, tex

Sounds like a great project!

Take a look at NOE Moulds. They have a number of .316" diameter moulds available.

Here is a link for the 155gr bullet selection - LINK

Ed

I would go to the image gallery, but I I don't see it. That is why I asked where to upload pix. Where it he picture uploader?

under the "Forums" link, scroll all the way down to the last group of links "Miscellaneous Topics". You'll find it there. Here is a link to it:
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/forums/80/1/image-gallery

Continuing in the saga.

I loaded up 16 rounds of .313 pistol bullets ahead of 10 grains of IMR 7625. This should have produced about 1350 FPs. The day was cold. really cold. it was -8 F so the session was short. Good thing, too. There were no keyholes, but also no accuracy at 25 yards. The "pattern" had to be 15" and all over the paper. When I got home the bore was rough enough a cleaning patch would not pass. I switched to a brass brush. A few passes smoothed things out, so I conclude some leading must have occurred. Since the .312 jacket bullet grouped into about 2" @ 25 yards, these bullet must have stripped in the rifling or were too soft or both. This was a failed test. Onward to the next.

i have a 303 barrel that has been shortened by 1/2 " at the mussel .
you pay the shipping if it does not work so be it if it does trad me something

norm

Norm,

Thanks for the offer. I'll PM you if i can figure out how.

click on my name and a screen comes up with private message and other stuff.

norm

Norm, I sent you a PM.

NO PM on my computer try again

norm

Members, I have decided not to pursue this project any further and sell the rifle as "functioning parts." Where is the classified section in the 24 hr campfire? Can somebody please direct me. The post will be for a complete savage 99 in .303 Savage, a resizing die and <20pc of brass.

To the best of my knowledge, Originally Savage 1895, and 1899 bores were .311 groove diameter.
This was changed to the 30 WCF standard of .308 around 1904.
J.R. Mattern's book "Handloading Ammunition" from 1926, notes this, and also states that many ammo manufacturers
Dropped the diameter of the bullets in their loaded cartridges from .311 to .308 around the time the book was published.
I have a mint 1920 vintage 1899 takedown in 303 Savage(Last year for the 1899 Model) and it will group .308 handloads in an inch or so at 100 yds with no keyholing at all, with original open sights. The bore slugs right at .308-.309
.
I have about 10 boxes of original Winchester 190 gr Silvertips, and at the time I acquired them there was a partial box as well, I shot those
Up on Targets and a couple of Deer , and 1 Hog and they were quite accurate as well. Also killed well as all 3 critters I shot with them were DRT.
My micrometer show the ones I have left now are .308 diameter.
I have read a number of stories over the years about variance in .303 bore diameters being rather large. Can't say as I ever heard or read of one as large as .316 before.

Daltond,
Thanks for the feedback. I had heard it both ways; .308/.311. Assumed mine might have been the .311 as it is from 1904. I have decided to part company with this rifle to make it a parts gun. Its all there. Number match and it functions/fires, but not very accurate. The external cosmetics/condition are fair to poor, but if a guy needs parts it is OK. Its all there in this post-stream. Know anybody who needs parts? Also, If i could find the classified on 24 HR campfire, I would post it there.

PM sent Dan,

Here is the link for the classifieds ( https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/forums/14/1/free-classifieds )

Thank you Jeff for the direction on many fronts. I posted the rifle for sale in the classified.

check your PMs

Norm

Lots of "reports" of how the early 1895's and 1899's were .311, but the large majority of rifles that have been checked have been .308. I'm not saying it's a final determination, but it seems to point to most rifles being .308 bore. Even early ones.

In 1918 Townsend Whelen wrote in his book that the 303 Savage was bored exactly the same as the 30-30, just the chamber was different.
In 1920 Horace Kephart wrote that the 303 Savage bullet is of .311 diameter, but the barrel is only .308.

Both of those guys were pretty knowledgeable.

Check PM I need parts.

i think he started a feeding frenzy

but i was here first smile face.

norm

did he respond to anyone?

Yes he did. I was second just by a few min. Right in my backyard.

thought maybe he was "snowed under" by the rush!
i got no response .

taken care of.

norm