Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors Did all the Speigels have...

scroll engraving on the receivers? Any made w/o?

Serial range for the Speigels? TY

You can search past threads and there is plenty of info on Spiegels.

"Spiegel" seems to cover a group of rifles that may have been Spiegels, or salesman samples, etc.
Features varied, some checked, some scroll engraved, some D&T, some combo. (it's Savage, remember)

Mine happens to be 377xxx/ 1937. No scroll, D&T behind rear sight on barrel.

btw - it's an EG w/o checking, 303, handles nice and shoots great.

It gets a bit confusing when you get into examples that don't have the "engraving", since those look very similar to a regular EG and the extra holes could have happened after market (I have a prewar 99R in 250-3000 that has those d&t holes - obviously NOT a Speigel EG ).

But somebody did dig up a Speigel catalog page showing the EG with the d&t holes and sling studs but no "engraving", so there are some non-stamped Speigels out there.

My notes are at home on the variations, but Rick has detailed them a couple times in the past.

Here's one thread:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/9679134/1

The majority of Speigel's won't letter because there are no log entries for the serial range. What we call Speigel rifles as they appear in the Speigel catalogs have the roll engraving, one of two checkering styles, sling swivels in specific locations and factory D&T'd scope base holes.

There are rifles with different combinations of the above characteristics. Were they sold through Speigel...don't know. Were all Speigel style rifles sold through Speigel...don't know.

I use the Speigel term more as a reference for identifying what characteristics, plus or minus, that the rifle has. Even if it has a Speigel disc with it you can't be sure as the disc was not shipped attached to the rifle so it is possible that it came with another Speigel purchased firearm.

I asked because of this rifle.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/gu...-99/savage-99-30-30.cfm?gun_id=100954697

Speaking of variations, I know where two of these guns are in 30-30 and they both have checkering on the pads and a diamond checkered pattern around the fore,end screw. Both rifles are otherwise original in excellent condition. Again, the exception of the checkered pads and checkering around the screw. Both patterns are exactly identical. These two guns are 2000 miles apart, and within a 1000 of each other serial number wise. I have come to the conclusion that these left the factory that way. They are just too identical, and there have been so many combinations/variations of this particular gun.

I have 2 of them. One in 300 and the other 303. The 303, while wearing a stith, killed a nice buck 2 years ago.

I would like to get one in 30-30 someday. Or a checkered EG in 30-30.

Here ya go, Roy. You can decide if that gun matches this Spiegel ad.

Roy, note that Rick's (Southern_WI_Savage) rifle characteristics and serial range are very close to the one in your link.

Regardless of that rifle having been sold by "Herr Speigel", its a cool old 99!

Well crap, I'm into 420/430 shotguns and now I'll have to find the Speigel version. Crap, crap and double crap!

Here are some Spiegel pages with dates -speigel-99-related

Might be because they're logged as Spiegel's and not as Speigel's - take note Roy. PS, it took me awhile to remember just how it was spelled, probabaly still some old posts of mine out there with it wrong. I see Rick (from WI) had it right, even put it in quotes.

I did notice the error in my spelling Gene and thank you for helping! I appreciate it.

I will add that I recently acquired a 1933 Fall & Winter Spiegel catalog and it does not have any 99's listed, the 1934 listed a standard carbine so 1934 might have been the first years Spiegel started selling 99's, my next catalog is 1937 and by then they had 99's with some special features (not yet 'engraved').

Gene, "carbine" as in a barrel band 99-H? Any indication that any of these earlier 99's were D&T'd.

I'm guilty of misspelling Spiegel and a lot of other words...

Rick, no mention of 'drilled & tapped for standard scope block' like in later catalogs, other guns weren't listed as such either - they also did not have their own version of Mossberg scopes at that time. in later catalog where they offered scopes most of the guns were listed as drilled & tapped for standard scope blocks, the only way their offered versions of Mossberg scopes could be mounted.

I came across a canvas case today that could have been a mate to the one in the ad above in a junk box. I can't swear to it because I didn't have this photo with me, but at least it's very close. Come to think of it it had a pouch with a wooden cleaning rod in it, so it may have been a little different. I picked up a leather folding knife sheath, a box of .358 brass, an uncheckered Savage 99 takedown forearm for a featherweight barrel, the Boone/Saturn boxes with peep and instructions, and a box of mixed 22 mag ammo all for $12 out of the junk box. I bet the canvas case would go cheap too.

behind, under, or in front of the rear sight?

Behind the rear sight dovetail.
Would be hidden if rear sight (flat top Sporter) is present.

I have a barrel band drilled the same as the spiegel serial number 357431

I have a gap in the Spiegel catalog info - missing 1935 to 1937 Spring & Summer - some where in that range they started having the guns drilled & tapped for scopes, so it's possible they may have offered barrel bands that way.

I was collecting this information to research the 22 pumps they offered - 1934 has the 'Stevens Peerless' theses were not drilled & tapped for scope block, 1937 Fall & Winter has the 'Stevens Model 29' - these were drilled & tapped for scope blocks, between these two models (based on serial numbers) I have the 'Springfield Repeater' (model 29 action) drilled & tapped and the 'Stevens Model 75-A' (29-A action) drilled & tapped, without catalogs I can't say for sure these were Spiegel guns but they share certain features not found on other models including being drilled & tapped the same and would fall in the 1935 to 1937 range based on model & serial numbers.

You could possibly letter that rifle.
It is believed ~371xxx is the low cutoff for the gap in the ledger.
Mine is 377xxx so I haven't tried. (yet)

"i before e except after c"

Gene , Wondering if there has been a conclusion on scope blocks or was it belding and mull?

When did Spiegel close down? Did they sell guns until the end? Did anyone here ever actually buy a gun from them?

We never had a Spiegel catalog in our house. We were a Sears and Monkey Wards family.

My 99R in 250 with the holes is 369,5xx. Been meaning to letter it..

My conclusion is no, others still think yes. The Spiegel catalogs have no mention of Belding & Mull, the pictures show Mossberg scopes, the descriptions say "drilled & tapped for standard scope blocks" - Belding & Mull took special blocks and the examples of their front blocks I have seen do not look suited to the hole spacing on a Spiegel. The few examples seen of blocks that fit these holes would not work with a Belding & Mull. If you look at the Spiegel catalog pages all of the guns drilled & tapped for scopes could be ordered with one of a couple special Mossbergs scopes already mounted.

Looking at the catalogs, although Spiegel never seemed to have guns made under their own name, they had manufactures make models with special features only offered by them, this is very apparent with the Stevens & Mossberg 22's they sold, They also had Mossberg make scopes with special features exclusively for them - I do not see them drilling & tapping their guns for a odd scope mount that they did not market themselves (Belding & Mull had been making scopes for about 10 years before the Spiegel's came out).

That ad shows scope blocks way out in front of the rear sight. I thought all the Spiegels had the holes under the rear sight. I'm confused.

That is an artists rendition, and is wrong. The instructions for the Spiegel Mossberg scopes (I have a copy courtesy of Groogle Deluxe) say the mounts should be about 7.5" maximum spacing (from memory, my not be exact but I know that's close) - that would put the front holes under the rear sight.

The B&M scope was very expensive so they would have surely mentioned it?

Interesting. If the hole spacing is 7½" it would be a simple matter to mount a Unertl/Fecker/Lyman (if the bases are compatible and if not, have custom ones made up). The spacing is compatible with the 7.2" required of those scopes to achieve 1/4MOA per click adjustment offered by those scopes. If the size of those vintage target scopes is a deterrent, scout up a 4x or 6x Small Game version of the Unertl and Fecker- rugged and short with excellent optics (but not tremendous field of view- but not worse than hunting scopes of the 30's-40's).

I have a B&M (no laughing) scope and mount that came off a Super Sporter and, though I am sure they made more than one type of mount, mine looks nothing like those in the ad. If B&M made expensive gear then I am perplexed as to why someone would have put one on a "hardware store" class rifle such as the 40/45 - given that the mount was purchased when B&M was still making them.

We've noted before that those scope bases shown don't match with what came on the Spiegel rifles.

And love "Groogle Deluxe"!!!

Gene, a few notes:

I asked about the D&T'd because the earliest 99 I've seen that has the odd D&T holes is a 1934 R (no others till 1936).

The 99-H that ctw referenced is one of 3 that I have in my 99-H data, all made 1936. This is of a sample size of 1934,12 ea; 1935, 14 ea; 1936, 19 ea and 1937, 13 ea. I also have one from 1938.

I had a Spiegel set up with Lyman blocks and a Lyman 438 scope using the odd D&T holes at Rick's Savage Fest. Lyman made a rear block that was designed to be mounted where the back two holes are located. It has allowance for the cocked indicator which it mounts over.

The earliest roll engraved rifle I have data on was shipped 11/1936. The major group of roll engraved rifles are from 1938, 1939 and 1940. I have a few non-roll engraved 99's in the 1938 data but non in the 1939 0r 1940 data.

Hey Gary, I've got 10 1899's, and if you throw out the two I got for under $200, and the 2 I got for over $1000, I'm within a couple bucks of that average, good calculator, Joe.

I picked up my 99F with 3x9 Redfield scope for less than $400, I feel lucky.

Not bad, I like the Redfields, I have a 2-7 on my 250 R, Joe.

That 99H in the ad for $40 was pretty pricey for its day. In today’s $, that is right around $750. Not a cheap rifle.

In the "real" world of collecting, $750.00 is chump change.

Yeah, I agree. No offense to anyone, but in the real world 750-bucks is no chump change for anything. Selling new firearms in the Great Depression must have been a great challenge.

True statement. Cost calculators are N/A.

99 production dropped from 12,000 in 1928 to 1300 in 1934. Yes it was hard to sell firearms then and I'm sure a lot of Savage employees got laid off.
On a similar note the wife of one of Harley-Davidson's top executives had to clean houses for a living during the depression. It seems like he was working for no salary just to do his part to keep the company going. David

Yea, we're OT here but, I lived on Lake Ripley in Cambridge WI for ~20 years and the "Davidsons" place was across the lake. Still is. Harley Davidson HQ is an hour east of here.
Additionally, Ole Evinrude and family lived here as well and there is a historical marker documenting the invention of the very first outboard boat motor. (google Paul Harvey story, for "the rest of the story")Not to mention the state record large mouth bass caught here. I'm a history buff, what can I say?

During the depression, I would guess that Savage laid off many employees and kept the best of the best employed ... perhaps that is why those rifles of this period are so nice. I think some of the highest quality 99s were made then; I expecially like the Rs, RSs, Ts and Hs of that period.

I have three EG's that I consider to fall into this category, two have the roll engravings and one does not. They are all drilled for the same type of bases. They all have the same sling swivels, which I believe to be unique to these rifles .I have not seen any other firearms with these swivels . The rifle not engraved is the earliest(359xxx) which ill letter as soon as savage catches up with the lettering. I fitted a weaver base on the front that brings the ring rearward over the top of the receiver and just used the regular #14 weaver on the rear utilizing just one screw and this works fine

plab

Keith, very good point about the quality of the rifles during that period. I have several made in that period and will have to get them out and look them over. David

Yeah, interesting thought about Savage keeping on it's best hands and letting the rest go. On the other hand, you might speculate they kept the cheapest labor on hand and let the old timers go.

But I bet you're right.

Seniority may have entered into who got laid off rather than ability.

Yeah, and how could that kind of thinking ever go wrong huh? Fast forward to today with all the entitlement mentality we have running rampant.

Possibly, however a business in financial distress first priority is $$$. High dollar cuts are what is made.
Also, it is pretty hard to argue that rifles 1899 - WWI were anything short of fit, form & functional art.

I have been with the same company since 1975. May will make it 43 years. I have never once been laid off. I got my seniority BECAUSE of my ability.