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Originally Posted by Starman




Quote
Jesus is fully God...


Jesus is a subordinate and not equal to God the Father.

"

Jesus was God veiled in human flesh.
There is no giving up of any powers, He said He could’ve called legions of angels to help Him at any moment.
God and Jesus are one.


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Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Jesus gave up some of his divine attributes while on earth. He said he was subordinate to the Father while on earth but that doesn't necessarily carry over to while he's in heaven. Outside of the 30 some years that Jesus was human, we see him and God intermixed. John 1:3 says Jesus is the creator and in Gen 1:1 it says that God created the heavens and the earth. John 1:1 says that Jesus and God are the same. Jesus said that God is spirit and can't be seen so we know that when God was meeting men face to face in the OT, that was Jesus.
So, outside of his short time on earth, Jesus is fully God.

I understand what you mean, but he was fully God while on earth, too.

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Fully God, yes, but he did give up some of his omniscience anyway. He said he didn't know the time of the end. We're not capable of understanding exactly what his relationship with God was during that time.


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Originally Posted by R_H_Clark
Originally Posted by OrangeOkie
Originally Posted by jaguartx
And every eye shall see him return in that cloud of glory, even those who pierced him.


So here is my question . . . if this passage is literal, and every person on earth was to actually see Christ coming in the clouds of glory, with their own eyes, simultaneously, and that the resurrection of all the dead who had ever lived on earth, all the way from Adam and Eve to the day of Christ coming in the clouds, . . . . then how were these people over in 2 Tim 2 having their faith overthrown by Hymenaeus and Philetus claiming the resurrection was past? If every eye was to literally "see Christ return in the clouds of glory" someone claiming this had already happened would be laughed to scorn, no?

We need to answer these questions, and not just gaze past them and go on with our beliefs about the second coming.



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Here is an interesting take on the "resurrection."

2 Tim 2:15-18

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.


Question: If the resurrection in the New Testament refers to the simultaneous 1) coming of Christ in the clouds, 2) on the day of judgment, 3) the end of time, 4) the burning up of the sun, moon, and stars, and 5) the resurrection of all the dead of all people from the beginning of Adam and Eve, to be 6) judged by Christ, sitting on the throne of judgment, separating the good from the evil, like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats . . . then how could the faith of some be over thrown simply by Hymenaeus and Philetus saying that "the resurrection is past already?" How could these people possibly believe "the resurrection is past already" if all of these visible and astonishing things were to happen in front of their very eyes? Is it possible that many of us today do not understand what was the Resurrection of the New Testament?

I contend the "Resurrection" mentioned in the New Testament is the resurrection of Israel form "spiritual death" and the transformation of God's people from the fleshly Israel to the " Spiritual Israel" which was fulfillment of the promise made to Abraham, and it occurred in 70 AD with the physical annihilation of the earthly vestiges of the Mosaic economy.




Oh,my brother,we would have to sit down and talk about these things for hours if not days before we could completely understand. Just as a quick note,I think you read too much into the phrase "and overthrow the faith of some" by giving it substance it may not necessarily contain. I think the point is rather that the Resurrection had not come yet,and so the teaching was in error.


Okay I'm confused.

First, Hymenaus and Philetus, whoever these people were did not impress the Apostle Paul much so that is a giant, colossal, big ass, honking, red flag right there that whatever they believed was wrong. He made a negative statement without detail about them in One Timothy as well.

Next, tradition states that Paul was murdered by the Romans sometime around AD 67 so he wrote both One and Two Timothy before then. So if Hymenaus and Philetus were teaching that the resurrection had already happened in time for Paul to write about them, they were doing it before the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 when the "spiritual resurrection" was alleged to take place by these folks. So that would make them wrong about it even if it were true. So my question is, can the people espousing this theory not count?

Further, what pages of the Bible do you have to tear out in order to make this theory work? Perhaps One Thessolonians 4: 16-18. If the second coming has already taken place, are we waiting for the 3rd in which Jesus "comes down from heaven"? Anytime someone comes to me with some kind of new "revelation" that requires me to twist, edit, or omit other scriptures, I gong it pretty quick. No end to all manner of cockamamie stuff has been concocted based on one verse which could easily be dismissed as garbage if people would only read the Bible and think for themselves and apply its whole counsel. When you fail to do that you are liable to wind up dancing with a rattlesnake in some little church in the Appalachian mountains.......or some such mental equivalent.


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Originally Posted by RJY66

Okay I'm confused.

First, Hymenaus and Philetus, whoever these people were did not impress the Apostle Paul much so that is a giant, colossal, big ass, honking, red flag right there that whatever they believed was wrong. He made a negative statement without detail about them in One Timothy as well.

Next, tradition states that Paul was murdered by the Romans sometime around AD 67 so he wrote both One and Two Timothy before then. So if Hymenaus and Philetus were teaching that the resurrection had already happened in time for Paul to write about them, they were doing it before the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 when the "spiritual resurrection" was alleged to take place by these folks. So that would make them wrong about it even if it were true. So my question is, can the people espousing this theory not count?

Further, what pages of the Bible do you have to tear out in order to make this theory work? Perhaps One Thessolonians 4: 16-18. If the second coming has already taken place, are we waiting for the 3rd in which Jesus "comes down from heaven"? Anytime someone comes to me with some kind of new "revelation" that requires me to twist, edit, or omit other scriptures, I gong it pretty quick. No end to all manner of cockamamie stuff has been concocted based on one verse which could easily be dismissed as garbage if people would only read the Bible and think for themselves and apply its whole counsel. When you fail to do that you are liable to wind up dancing with a rattlesnake in some little church in the Appalachian mountains.......or some such mental equivalent.
Well said.

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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by RJY66

Okay I'm confused.

First, Hymenaus and Philetus, whoever these people were did not impress the Apostle Paul much so that is a giant, colossal, big ass, honking, red flag right there that whatever they believed was wrong. He made a negative statement without detail about them in One Timothy as well.

Next, tradition states that Paul was murdered by the Romans sometime around AD 67 so he wrote both One and Two Timothy before then. So if Hymenaus and Philetus were teaching that the resurrection had already happened in time for Paul to write about them, they were doing it before the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 when the "spiritual resurrection" was alleged to take place by these folks. So that would make them wrong about it even if it were true. So my question is, can the people espousing this theory not count?

Further, what pages of the Bible do you have to tear out in order to make this theory work? Perhaps One Thessolonians 4: 16-18. If the second coming has already taken place, are we waiting for the 3rd in which Jesus "comes down from heaven"? Anytime someone comes to me with some kind of new "revelation" that requires me to twist, edit, or omit other scriptures, I gong it pretty quick. No end to all manner of cockamamie stuff has been concocted based on one verse which could easily be dismissed as garbage if people would only read the Bible and think for themselves and apply its whole counsel. When you fail to do that you are liable to wind up dancing with a rattlesnake in some little church in the Appalachian mountains.......or some such mental equivalent.
Well said.



Yes,there's a few things I would have to omit as well to believe we are in the new millennial reign after Christ's second coming. One would be the new city Jerusalem coming down from Heaven,as spoken of in Revelation 21. Another huge question is,where is Jesus,if the second coming has already been? From what I read,the whole purpose is so that God can live with his people.

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Originally Posted by Tom264
An answer to the question of resurrection.
There are more than one resurrection.
One happened on the day that Jesus rose from the dead, many were seen walking around in the cities after they were dead for years.
There will be more, one when those who are the bride of Christ will meet Him to live in that great city for a thousand year reign.
And the last when all those who denied Him will rise to be judged by God and the Saints.
3 resurrections and yes ALL will rise again whether to live in glory or be damned to hell which btw is not eternal like many think.
It will be utterly destroyed with all in it.
I've read dozens of verses used to support the idea that hell isn't eternal. Every single one of them can be as easily interpreted to mean that hell and it's inhabitants are separated from heaven, out of sight, out of mind, but yet continue to exist. All of these questionable verses are easily overshadowed by some hard evidence that leaves no room for interpretation:

Matthew 25:46, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into eternal life."
Mark 9:43, "And if your hand makes you sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched."
Revelation 14:11, "And the smoke of their torment ascends up forever and ever."

I also get tired of hearing about how Satan rules in hell. He won't. Hell was created especially for him and his followers. He won't rule, he'll be it's principle victim.



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Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Originally Posted by Tom264
An answer to the question of resurrection.
There are more than one resurrection.
One happened on the day that Jesus rose from the dead, many were seen walking around in the cities after they were dead for years.
There will be more, one when those who are the bride of Christ will meet Him to live in that great city for a thousand year reign.
And the last when all those who denied Him will rise to be judged by God and the Saints.
3 resurrections and yes ALL will rise again whether to live in glory or be damned to hell which btw is not eternal like many think.
It will be utterly destroyed with all in it.
I've read dozens of verses used to support the idea that hell isn't eternal. Every single one of them can be as easily interpreted to mean that hell and it's inhabitants are separated from heaven, out of sight, out of mind, but yet continue to exist. All of these questionable verses are easily overshadowed by some hard evidence that leaves no room for interpretation:

Matthew 25:46, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into eternal life."
Mark 9:43, "And if your hand makes you sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched."
Revelation 14:11, "And the smoke of their torment ascends up forever and ever."

I also get tired of hearing about how Satan rules in hell. He won't. Hell was created especially for him and his followers. He won't rule, he'll be it's principle victim.


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Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Originally Posted by Tom264
An answer to the question of resurrection.
There are more than one resurrection.
One happened on the day that Jesus rose from the dead, many were seen walking around in the cities after they were dead for years.
There will be more, one when those who are the bride of Christ will meet Him to live in that great city for a thousand year reign.
And the last when all those who denied Him will rise to be judged by God and the Saints.
3 resurrections and yes ALL will rise again whether to live in glory or be damned to hell which btw is not eternal like many think.
It will be utterly destroyed with all in it.
I've read dozens of verses used to support the idea that hell isn't eternal. Every single one of them can be as easily interpreted to mean that hell and it's inhabitants are separated from heaven, out of sight, out of mind, but yet continue to exist. All of these questionable verses are easily overshadowed by some hard evidence that leaves no room for interpretation:

Matthew 25:46, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into eternal life."
Mark 9:43, "And if your hand makes you sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched."
Revelation 14:11, "And the smoke of their torment ascends up forever and ever."

I also get tired of hearing about how Satan rules in hell. He won't. Hell was created especially for him and his followers. He won't rule, he'll be it's principle victim.





All good points. I feel the same way about people thinking Satan rules Hell. I know you know this but for anyone interested,the scripture actually tells us that Hell was never created for man. It was made for Satan and all the fallen angels that followed him in his attempt to exalt himself in Heaven.I think it's interesting that since Hell wasn't created for men,they wind up there anyway. Could it be that they do because there's no other place for them? I mean if Hell was just punishment for a little while and then the Spirit was destroyed,what's the point? What good is punishment unless it's to reform wrong doing? If there's nothing left after the punishment to reform,then what's the point?

I personally think that a spirit cannot be destroyed, and will live eternally,either with God who that spirit made Lord,or with Satan,who that spirit made Lord.

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I often hear folks say they don’t believe in hell because he’ll is not humane.
I point out to them that they are right but it wasn’t created for humans.
But if someone rejects Christ they have made the choice to be there.

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Humane and ultimate punishment can't be used together.


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This has been a very interesting discussion!


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Philippians 2:6

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:



1 John 5:7

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


John 1:1, 14 - 15
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.


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Originally Posted by R_H_Clark
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Originally Posted by Tom264
An answer to the question of resurrection.
There are more than one resurrection.
One happened on the day that Jesus rose from the dead, many were seen walking around in the cities after they were dead for years.
There will be more, one when those who are the bride of Christ will meet Him to live in that great city for a thousand year reign.
And the last when all those who denied Him will rise to be judged by God and the Saints.
3 resurrections and yes ALL will rise again whether to live in glory or be damned to hell which btw is not eternal like many think.
It will be utterly destroyed with all in it.
I've read dozens of verses used to support the idea that hell isn't eternal. Every single one of them can be as easily interpreted to mean that hell and it's inhabitants are separated from heaven, out of sight, out of mind, but yet continue to exist. All of these questionable verses are easily overshadowed by some hard evidence that leaves no room for interpretation:

Matthew 25:46, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into eternal life."
Mark 9:43, "And if your hand makes you sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched."
Revelation 14:11, "And the smoke of their torment ascends up forever and ever."

I also get tired of hearing about how Satan rules in hell. He won't. Hell was created especially for him and his followers. He won't rule, he'll be it's principle victim.





All good points. I feel the same way about people thinking Satan rules Hell. I know you know this but for anyone interested,the scripture actually tells us that Hell was never created for man. It was made for Satan and all the fallen angels that followed him in his attempt to exalt himself in Heaven.I think it's interesting that since Hell wasn't created for men,they wind up there anyway. Could it be that they do because there's no other place for them? I mean if Hell was just punishment for a little while and then the Spirit was destroyed,what's the point? What good is punishment unless it's to reform wrong doing? If there's nothing left after the punishment to reform,then what's the point?

I personally think that a spirit cannot be destroyed, and will live eternally,either with God who that spirit made Lord,or with Satan,who that spirit made Lord.


Nowhere in the Bible does it say there is an eternal hell.
Hell was created.......therefore it has to have an end.
There is only one form of eternal life and that is God who had no beginning or end.
And no there is not going to be punishment in hell for a certain amount of time then be able to go to heaven, that’s a rediculous statement.
Also not mentioned in the Bible.


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Hell can be everlasting without technically being eternal, just as the human soul is everlasting, even though they have a creation point in time.

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I have a hard time following much of this stuff. To be sure, I believe that God exists. If we made up God, then we have made up any moral rules, and there would be no absolutes, only whims. Society could not exist based on everyone’s whims.

But I have a hard time following the abstruse parts of some Christian philosophy. Here’s why.

If those who do not believe in Christ must serve infinite life sentences of cruel punishment, then (obviously) God wants us to believe in Christ.

But if God wants us to believe in Christ, then why hasn’t God told us anything or given us any unambiguous sign that would cause us to believe in Christ for 2000 years now? No sign. Nothing.

God is supposed to be all powerful. God could easily SAY SOMETHING that all could hear. But God does not. God is silent.

Now some say that we should believe in Christ on faith. But why say that? If someone who spent every day with Jesus for a couple of years, like the Apostle Thomas, could doubt the resurrection until shown proof, how can we be criticized if 2000 years later we doubt it, we who have never seen Jesus in the flesh? Let alone the billions of Moslems, Jews, Hindus, Budhists (spelling?), and atheists.

Doesn’t God want to help THEM to believe in Christ?

Is God deliberately withholding the proof that Jesus is the Christ, knowing that such an action would condemn billions to eternal punishment? Such a thing would be deliberate obstruction of justice.

Jesus was obviously a good and dedicated person. After he died, something happened that upset the prior beliefs of a heckuva lot of people. And a Jewish Roman citizen named Paul went around to the largest cities of the eastern Roman Empire and said something that caused thousands of sophisticated Romans to throw out the religion of their ancestors and take up that of Paul. That’s amazing.

But I think too many Christians get tangled up in their underwear when they try to split hairs. Worry about doing good, not about Hell.


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If you knew the correct answer to the questions posed here, and discovered which of the competing views was correct, WHAT WOULD YOU DO DIFFERENTLY TOMORROW in comparison to today?

The spiritual life is made up of action, not theory.

Intellectual Pride practically drips from the posts on this thread.

I don’t believe arguing theology equips a man to better obey the Two Great Commandments.


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Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Jesus gave up some of his divine attributes while on earth. He said he was subordinate to the Father while on earth
but that doesn't necessarily carry over to while he's in heaven.
.


(Ref. John 5:22)
Jesus will be assigned and sent by the Father as the final Judge.
The authority-appointment for the task of being judge comes from the Father ,

Jesus will then report back to the Father to personally vouch for those written in the Book of Life.

All indicating a level of subordination.


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Originally Posted by IndyCA35
I have a hard time following much of this stuff. To be sure, I believe that God exists. If we made up God, then we have made up any moral rules, and there would be no absolutes, only whims. Society could not exist based on everyone’s whims.

But I have a hard time following the abstruse parts of some Christian philosophy. Here’s why.

If those who do not believe in Christ must serve infinite life sentences of cruel punishment, then (obviously) God wants us to believe in Christ.

But if God wants us to believe in Christ, then why hasn’t God told us anything or given us any unambiguous sign that would cause us to believe in Christ for 2000 years now? No sign. Nothing.

God is supposed to be all powerful. God could easily SAY SOMETHING that all could hear. But God does not. God is silent.

Now some say that we should believe in Christ on faith. But why say that? If someone who spent every day with Jesus for a couple of years, like the Apostle Thomas, could doubt the resurrection until shown proof, how can we be criticized if 2000 years later we doubt it, we who have never seen Jesus in the flesh? Let alone the billions of Moslems, Jews, Hindus, Budhists (spelling?), and atheists.

Doesn’t God want to help THEM to believe in Christ?

Is God deliberately withholding the proof that Jesus is the Christ, knowing that such an action would condemn billions to eternal punishment? Such a thing would be deliberate obstruction of justice.

Jesus was obviously a good and dedicated person. After he died, something happened that upset the prior beliefs of a heckuva lot of people. And a Jewish Roman citizen named Paul went around to the largest cities of the eastern Roman Empire and said something that caused thousands of sophisticated Romans to throw out the religion of their ancestors and take up that of Paul. That’s amazing.

But I think too many Christians get tangled up in their underwear when they try to split hairs. Worry about doing good, not about Hell.

God said nothing? For starters, Jesus rose from the dead to save us all. Then he appointed 12 apostles to organize the spreading of the word throughout the world. They, plus other converts, churned out a bunch of writings called Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Act, and many others. These works have been preserved for nearly 2000 years and have been carried to every country in the world. Everything you need to know about the Lord in order to be saved is in there. EVERYTHING.

Then we have this:
Mat 12:38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."
39 He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

The sign of Jonah was he descended into the sea and 3 days later was resurrected although he didn't die. Likewise, the son of man would descend into the earth, dead, and 3 days later rise again. Jesus did it and still the pharisees didn't believe him. That's all the sign anyone will get. God sent the biggest and brightest sign that's possible - resurrection from the dead.

We all discuss the finer points of Christianity but all that's necessary for salvation is found in this one single verse:
Ro 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


All the other stuff we're discussing here is gravy like the nature of Christ, the fine points of scripture, how long hell lasts, etc. None of it is necessary for salvation. You only need to truly believe that Christ is God and that he rose from the dead.



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Originally Posted by Tom264
ALL will rise again whether to live in glory or be damned to hell which btw is not eternal like many think.
It will be utterly destroyed with all in it.


Yes, Scripture clearly indicates a final 2nd death and destruction that awaits sinners who do not appear in the Book of Life.

yet some like to carry on about an eternal torment.





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