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Hmmm...

You keep slapping up a bunch of partial/cherry-picked verses.

What is your REAL point for posting here?

I didn't write it. God did. He has his reasons and who am I to dispute them?
Resurrection from the dead is the most incredible sign anyone could have. It's so big it doesn't need to be repeated. So big that thousands of Muslims are indeed being converted. We don't hear much about it because in many Muslim countries it's death to be a Christian. It's all done under cover but it's happening. There are lots of missionaries risking their lives to live and work with the Muslims. I've read that the women, in particular, are converting. Their lives are pure hell under Islam and their spirits are being set free. They find that the Bible is plenty of evidence. It's as true today as it was 2000 years ago.

Jesus is the appointed conduit that the supreme Father operates through.

The universe was created by the Father through the Son

Hebrews 1:2
http://biblehub.com/hebrews/1-2.htm
( The Inheritance Jesus received is dependent on the Father bestowing it upon him.)

One finds their way to be under the Fathers roof only through the Son.

John 14:6
"Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"

John 14:2-4
" 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to
prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”




Hebrews 1:3
"The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.
After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven".

^^Interesting that Jesus is at the right hand of 'the Majesty'..which suggests supreme to the Son.

Hebrews 1:8-9 goes on to say...

8 But about the Son he says,
“ Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

^^God the Son has a higher God, The Father refers himself as 'the God' of the Son of God.
How could Jesus receive his inheritance unless a higher God had supreme authority to grant him such?

Matthew 25:34
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance,
the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.


^^ Jesus is fully fledged King through his inheritance, yet he says blessings still come from the Father.


Matthew 16:27
"For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person
according to what they have done".
Matthew 25:31
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne."


^^ Jesus is King on his inherited Throne, but comes not in his own glory, but is representative of the glory
of the Father, suggesting he is still in service to his Father/The Majesty.

"Moral rules" aren't absolutes, but are creations of culture. Societies may abide by a particular set of rules, but even within a society there can be variations in the particular rules or interpretations of rules. For example, even among Christian societies there are really quite significant differences of view as to the proper interpretation of even the most basic of rules, such as the Ten Commandments, and quite significant differences as between individuals as to the way they apply those rules in practice.

And then there are societies for whom such rules as are (more or less) followed by those adhering to the Judeo-Christian traditions have no application, and perhaps no meaning at all. In a society where the concept of "personal property" is completely alien, for example, rules such as "you shall not steal" or "covet not" are completely meaningless.

Indy
I don't mind the kinds of questions you are asking at all. They seem to be honest questions from someone willing and wanting to hear an answer.

I believe that the reason that Jesus doesn't fly around in the clouds or do something equally spectacular so that everyone would have no choice but to believe,is because it is that very choice that is the thing that is most necessary. I believe that without making that choice to believe in something beyond what you can absolutely prove,it would be impossible to be saved. It is that very force of faith in the invisible God that is able to transform a human Spirit from death to life,from being separated from God to being one with God.

I have also found and witnessed many times a very awesome thing. When a man starts honestly,and with an open heart,looking for God,really seeking with his whole heart,God shows up. That person has an encounter with God. It isn't always the same,and telling of it mostly wouldn't convince a skeptic,but that person is convinced beyond any shadow of a doubt,so much so that it completely transforms their entire life. Billions all around the world have experienced this,for thousands of years,and millions are experiencing it right now. That my friend is an awesome amount of proof.

The last five versus of this story of The Rich Man and Lazarus, clearly points out that God speaks to us through his word. The Rich man thought that if his five brothers were to see Lazarus rise from the dead and warn them about what had happened to their brother, they would be persuaded to change their ways. But Abraham pointed out that if his five brothers would not believe what was written in the Scriptures, they would not believe even if Lazarus (or Jesus) were to rise from the dead. Our relationship with God comes only through an understanding and belief in his written word.

Luke 16:19-31

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

To sum it all up....

From the last 3 pages of posts, we see people coming from all sides on many issues. However, everyone has one thing in common: salvation comes through accepting Christ as savior and Lord. You can't earn it, it's a free gift received solely by believing in him.

We can talk about it for many more pages but those simple facts remain and are set in stone. No matter what you believe or how you interpret scripture, salvation by faith in a risen Lord is common to all Christians. It's what Christianity is all about. It doesn't matter if you believe or not believe in an eternal hell, whether you agree with Paul on everything he says, or how the end times will wash out. That simple salvation by faith remains. It's given by God and will never change.

Well said and amen.

Good post Starman. Dang I feel I should apologize for the way I responded to you in another "religious" thread.....something about everyone who ever sinned being blotted out of the book of life. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one but you are not the unserious nut I thought you were.......maybe!

What you are dealing with in those scriptures is the concept of the Holy Trinity which is pretty much above human understanding, or at least above mine. Take Phillipians Chap 2. There it says that God (Elohim) exalted Jesus (implying a superior subordinate relationship like you describe) by giving him a name above all names and that every tongue would confess that Jesus is "Lord". Lord is the English word for Adonai, one of Yahweh's names from the Old Testament. Isaiah said that only Adonai is to be worshiped.

Then you run into John 1:1 "In the beginning was the word and the word was Elohim and the word was with Elohim. Elohim another OT name of God translated into English as "God".

Then there is 1 Timothy 2:5 "There is one Elohim and one Mediator between Elohim and man, the Man Jesus....who John said was Elohim, but who is also a man who mediates between Elohim and man.

Best I can tell, Jesus is subordinate to God, Jesus is God, and Jesus is a man. How can he be all those things? I DON"T KNOW! That is where faith comes in.

We have not even discussed the Rodney Dangerfield of the Trinity.......the Holy Spirit.

Good post Okie.

I used to think as Indy posted, why does not God recreate the book of Acts in a widespread way and do some "signs and wonders" on a large scale. Everyone believes and we get on to bigger and better things. What Jesus seemed to be saying in verse 31 was that "signs and wonders" are over-rated. Jesus did many up to and including the raising of the dead as did the Apostles in the book of Acts. Many people believed because of them but more did not. All of the Apostles wound up as martyrs despite God's using them to perform miracles.

There are Christians out there right now speaking in tongues, casting out demons, healing the sick, etc. and they're laughed at. They're called cultists. They're accused of demon possession. It's the same as what happened in Bible times. Nothing has changed. The signs are there and the masses reject them.

By their very nature, miracles and signs had to have a beginning and an end. If miracles and signs were still being performed today, they would be recognized as simple laws of nature. 2000 years of miracles would not have the same effect as the 40 years of miracles we read about in the New Testament.

A Calvinist?

I though you guys all disappears in the 1700's.

The miracles performed in Nature are not permanent. We can assume that the ones Jesus raised from the dead while on earth did not become immortal. They later died as we all will someday.

The miracles Jesus does in the Spiritual realm by granting an individual a transformed spirit...... those are the more important ones. The raising of a drunk from the gutter to a productive life is actually a pretty commonplace miracle, but no less miraculous because of its frequency.

No need for more signs and wonders.

They are called Pentecostals and yes, they are "out there"....

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but the Jews did not kill Jesus, human nature in the heart of every man man killed Jesus. However he was a willing sacrifice, he could have stopped it at any time...............thank God he did not.

A miracle is "an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment" By saying something is "commonplace" you've excluded it from the definition of "Miracle".

I thought it was all part of God's plan to sacrifice himself, to himself to create a loophole, via blood magic, to rules he created in the first place.

Question: "How can you believe in salvation by faith alone when the only occurrence of ‘faith alone’ in the Bible (James 2:24) says that salvation is not by faith alone?"

Martin Luther Speaks on “Faith Only” and Baptism

by Kyle Butt, M.Div.

LINK

One popular belief in many protestant denominations is the idea that God supplies salvation to each and every person based solely on the faith of that person, apart from any action taken by that individual. This idea, often called sola fide, says, that a person is saved by faith alone. Any number of quotations demonstrating this doctrine can be cited. In a debate with Thomas Warren in 1953, L.S. Ballard affirmed the position that “the alien sinner is saved the very moment he/she believes that Jesus Christ is the son of God” (Warren and Ballard, 1953). This particular belief is commonly worded like this: “People are saved through Christ alone, by grace alone, through faith alone.”

According to the modern-day advocates of “faith alone” salvation, water baptism cannot be a requisite to salvation, because it is something “more than” faith. While space limitations prevent a thorough investigation of the biblical doctrine of baptism (see Lyons, 2003), it is interesting to note how far the “faith alone” doctrine has drifted from its original form.

The idea of being saved by faith alone is often attributed to Martin Luther. Indeed, he and the other reformers challenged the Catholic Church that sold indulgences and offered a “works-based” type of salvation. Martin Luther often taught that salvation was based on faith alone, and not received based upon a person’s meritorious works. Martin Luther did not, however, take faith alone to mean that mere mental assent to Christ’s deity was sufficient to obtain salvation. In fact, Luther’s idea of faith alone does not conform to the modern-day idea that baptism cannot be required for salvation.

While it is understood that the opinions of men are in no way authoritative when it comes to God’s plan for salvation, it is nonetheless interesting to note that Martin Luther believed wholeheartedly in the necessity of baptism as a requisite for salvation. In his Large Catechism, Luther wrote:

[I] affirm that Baptism is no human trifle, but that it was established by God Himself. Moreover, He earnestly and solemnly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. No one is to think that it is an optional matter like putting on a red coat. It is of greatest importance that we hold Baptism in high esteem as something splendid and glorious. The reason why we are striving and battling so strenuously for this view of Baptism is that the world nowadays is full of sects that loudly proclaim that Baptism is merely an external form and that external forms are useless.... Although Baptism is indeed performed by human hands, yet it is truly God’s own action (1978, pp. 98-99).

From Luther’s comments about baptism, it is obvious that he viewed water baptism as essential for salvation. Many of the protestant denominations that attribute their ideas about “faith only” to Martin Luther have not been taught that Luther’s concept of faith alone was not in opposition to works of God (like baptism and repentance), but in opposition to meritorious works by which a person believes that he or she “earns” salvation.

What, then, would Martin Luther say to those today who teach that “faith alone” excludes baptism? Listen to his words pertaining to this teaching:

But our know-it-alls, the new spirit people, claim that faith alone saves and that human works and outward forms contribute nothing to this. We answer: It is of course true that nothing in us does it except faith, as we shall hear later. But these blind leaders of the blind refuse to see that faith must have something in which it believes, that is, something it clings to, something on which to plant its feet and into which to sink its roots. Thus faith clings to the water and believes Baptism to be something in which there is pure salvation and life, not through the water, as I have emphasized often enough, but because God’s name is joined to it.... If follows from this that whoever rejects Baptism rejects God’s word, faith, and the Christ who directs us to Baptism and binds us to it (1978, pp. 101-102).

Martin Luther was a man. He made many mistakes and believed things about the Bible that were not true. It should be noted, however, that the “faith only” doctrine attributed so often to him has been misrepresented on a grand scale. Martin Luther’s words are unambiguous and clear. His “faith only” doctrine did not exclude baptism as necessary for salvation. Could it be the case that those who loudly tout the “faith only” mantra have not thoroughly investigated the works of the man to whom the doctrine is so often attributed?

The Bible does teach that those who are being saved are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). It does not, however, teach that a person is saved “by faith alone” without any further acts of obedience. Even Martin Luther recognized that water baptism is not a meritorious work that earns a person salvation. On the other hand, it is an obedient act required by God in order for people to obtain salvation.

Not a Calvinist