Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Root of Jesse and the Offspring of David

Sola fide it typically attributed to Martin Luthar, and there is significant variation regarding how it's interpreted by the various Christian sects.

we have a sola fide church and school in my community. age 3 years to 8th grade i believe. never been to it, but have driven past it on the way to work many many times. have a friend who is a member of the missouri synod of the lutheran church. don't think they're anything like the other lutheran sects/denominations.

Church of Christ. You don’t have an organ or piano in your church either, do you?

he terminology—"by faith alone"—does not appear in English Bible translations other than in James 2:24 where it has been claimed that the author seems to reject the notion that a person is justified by God solely on account of faith.[26]

Luther added the word "alone" (allein in German) to Romans 3:28 controversially so that it read: "So now we hold, that man is justified without the help of the works of the law, alone through faith"[27] The word "alone" does not appear in the Greek texts,[28] but Luther defended his translation by maintaining that the adverb "alone" was required both by idiomatic German and the apostle Paul's intended meaning,[29] and that sola was used in theological tradition before him. Other Catholic authorities also used "alone" in their translation of Romans 3:28 or exegesis of salvation by faith passages.[30][31]


Whole new connotation to "The Revised Version".

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no-one can boast.


Ro 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


I don't know about Luther or the Catholics, but the word of God is pretty clear to me. These 2 verses say all. It doesn't take a theologian to figure them out.
James was written to those already saved. They have salvation and he was telling them how to live it.

If it was clear, it would mean the same thing to all Christians and Christian sects, but it doesn't, so it's not clear.

Chuck, throughout this discussion you have seemed to always dismiss scriptural arguments with which you disagree and which do not fit your exegesis. That is a bad habit for a Bible student to adopt.

Well, there they are. Those verses say that you're saved by grace, not by works. The verses are right there in black and white to be read by all, in any version you like. I don't care how they're written in Latin. They were originally in Greek and the best translations are directly from that.

And here's 40 passages that say you are wrong:

Psalms 15: A Psalm of David. O LORD, who may abide in Your tent? Who may dwell on Your holy hill? He who walks with integrity, and works righteousness, And speaks truth in his heart. He does not slander with his tongue, Nor does evil to his neighbor, Nor takes up a reproach against his friend; In whose eyes a reprobate is despised, But who honors those who fear the LORD; He swears to his own hurt and does not change; He does not put out his money at interest, Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things will never be shaken.
Psalms 106:28-31: They yoked themselves to the Baal of Peor and ate sacrifices offered to lifeless gods; they aroused the Lord’s anger by their wicked deeds, and a plague broke out among them. But Phinehas stood up and intervened, and the plague was checked. This was credited to him as righteousness for endless generations to come.
Matthew 5:16: "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."
Matthew 5:48: (part of the Expounding of the Law within the Sermon on the Mount): "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Compare Imitatio dei)
Matthew 7:21: (part of the Sermon on the Mount): "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
Matthew 7:24-27: (part of the Sermon on the Mount): "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
Matthew 12:36-37: "I tell you, on the day of judgment you will have to give an account for every careless word you utter; For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
Matthew 16:27: "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done."
Matthew 19:16-21: "And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.”
Matthew 21:28-31: "‘But what do you think? A certain man had two sons, and he came to the first and said: "Son, go work today in my vineyard." He answered: "I will not," but afterwards he repented and went. So he came to the second and said likewise, and he answered and said: "I go, sir," but did not go. Which of the two has done the will of his father?’ They said to him: ‘The first.’ Jesus said to them: ‘Verily, I say to you: The publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.’"
Matthew 24:10-20: (part of the Olivet discourse): "Then many will fall away, and they will betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because of the increase of lawlessness, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved."
Matthew 25:31-46: (part of The Sheep and the Goats): "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Matthew 28:19-20a: (part of the Great Commission): "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."
Luke 8:21: "But He answered and said to them, 'My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.' "
Luke 10:25-28: "On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. 'Teacher,' he asked, 'what must I do to inherit eternal life?' 'What is written in the Law?' he replied. 'How do you read it?' He answered: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 'You have answered correctly,' Jesus replied. 'Do this and you will live.'"
John 5:29: "And will come out, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."
John 13:35 "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
Acts 26:20: "First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds."
Romans 2:6-16: For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
Galatians 6:7b-9: "A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up."
1 Corinthians 6:9-10: "Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind; nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
1 Corinthians 7:19: "Circumcision means nothing and uncircumcision means nothing; what matters is keeping God's commandments."
1 Corinthians 10:12: "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."
1 Corinthians 13:2-3: "And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing."
1 Corinthians 13:13: "And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love."
2 Corinthians 5:10: "For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done is his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."
Philippians 2:12b-13: "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, For God is one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work."
1 Timothy 4:16: "Attend to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in both tasks, for by doing so you will save both yourself and those who listen to you."
1 Timothy 6:18-19: "That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life."
Hebrews 10:24: "And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds."
James 1:22: "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says."
James 2:14-26: What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
1 Peter 1:17: "Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one's works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning."
1 Peter 2:12: "Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation."
1 John 2:3-7: "We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, 'I know him,' but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard."
1 John 3:17-18: "If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth."
Revelation 2:23: "Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds."
Revelation 14:12-13: "Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, ‘Write this: Blessed are the dead who from now on die in the Lord.’ ‘Yes,’ says the Spirit, ‘they will rest from their labours, for their deeds follow them.’"
Revelation 20:13: "All the dead were judged according to their deeds."
Revelation 22:12-15: "Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they who do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie."


Like I said, when you look at the entire body of work we call The Bible, the answer is not clear.

I would not agree with that regardless of what Martin Luther may have believed.

I could go through each one and explain how they are either not applicable being of a different covenant,or how you are interpreting them wrong. I doubt that any of that effort would mean anything at all to you.

I'll only say that if we could have saved ourselves then Jesus died in vain. If we need Jesus plus our best efforts,Jesus still died in vain.

You would be correct. When a person or a group starts operating in the gifts of the Spirit like that, they are going to get hell's attention and hell's best shot.

I went to a Pentecostal church as a young man up until about age 22. It was a glorious time for a time. I was healed of a raging ear infection of all things which has been my only physical brush with the supernatural. I was sitting in the service and my ear was HURTING. I pretty much ignored the service as all I could think about was getting to a quick med place after it was over to get a round of antibiotics. When it was over, the pastor called for people who were sick to come up for prayer. I did not want to go because it would delay my trip to the doctor.....so I was not in any kind of super spiritual mood. Something clicked on the inside that I needed to go "give it a shot". I figured if nothing else my Dad would like it. I got in line and when I got to the pastor he asked what was wrong, I told him and he asked me did I believe the Lord could heal it. I said yes, but what I was believing inside was that the Lord was going to use the doctor and the antibiotics I was about to go get to heal it. The pastor put his hands on both my ears and said be healed in the name of Jesus Christ. The infected ear got hot and it felt like warm water gushed out of it. I must have looked dumbfounded because the pastor looked at me and grinned as if he knew what happened, gave me a big bear hug and a pat on the back and went to the next person. I grabbed my earlobe and tugged on it....no pain when a few minutes earlier if I barely touched it, it hurt.

Never had anything quite like that happen since that affected me in my physical body like that.

I had an awesome inward witness when my Dad passed that I needed to quit praying for him and rejoice and be happy for him because he was getting to go home. Dad had had a massive stroke and I had been praying for his recovery for about a day and a night. After the witness I had tremendous peace even though I was losing my earthly father, spiritual father, and best pal. I was able to take my eyes off myself and be joyful for what Dad was gaining instead of wallowing in self pity for what I was losing.

One night I was in bed praising the Lord, ie "saying my prayers" my mind was on him and the most far thing away from it was a rental house my Mother owns. Suddenly like an arrow the thought shot into my mind "you need to get your ass to that house first thing in the morning the gas is leaking out of the water heater". I went and guess what.....the gas was leaking out of a coupling going to the water heater. The old lady living there could not smell it but I sure could.

That is the sum total of my "out there" supernatural experiences. Ya'll believe what you want to believe.

The church where the Lord healed my ear did not last long. First a dispute over the pastor's salary started. One of the "elders" left the church over it, and his family and friends went with him. Next a dispute over whether or not women could teach or speak from the pulpit. People split over that. The Holy Spirit packed his bags and went somewhere else. The church died and the building was taken over by another group. That was 30 years ago. Last I heard the pastor that prayed for my ear, now getting on up there in age, is a missionary overseas. Not an uncommon scenario. I've been to other churches that have tried to force or fake what went on there for a short while but have never found one quite the same.

+1

Fair enough R H. That piece simply takes away Martin Luther from the "faith only" crowd. He clearly understood the steps of the faith of Abraham (Rom 4:12) that leads to salvation . . . faith and obedience.

We could get into a long debate about that also. Right now I'll just say that I don't see salvation as faith plus obedience. I will say that the two must go hand in hand though because the kind of faith that saves a man would also produce obedience.I mean how could you say that you believed in God with all your heart but you didn't want to listen to anything he had to say?

I'll leave you with these passages which might shed some light.
Romans 4:8-11King James Version (KJV)

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:


We see here that Abraham wasn't blessed because of his action,as in action plus faith equals blessing. Abraham was blessed because of his faith,and his action was a sign and seal which showed his faith.

In other words Abraham was accounted righteous because of his faith,before his action which showed his faith.

And I'm sure there are those with a contra-position that could explain why all your scriptural explanations are wrong, as such was the general consensus of Christianity for the 1500 years preceding Luther.

Maybe,so what's your agenda?

So I believe I "hear" you saying that faith with out works (of obedience to God's commands) is dead?

Heb 11:8

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

The point is, your alleged God is not a very effective communicator. The all powerful creator of the Universe should be more competent this.

Yours sure is........