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I'm not sure where I stand here with the muzzleloader crowd on this subject so I hope this topic doesn't offend the traditionalist. I'm looking for a long range/200+ yrd set up for bear hunting in a muzzleloader and archery only hunting area. If you traditionalist are offended by that it's ok I understand.
Let's start with ideas on what makes the perfect long-range bear hunting muzzleloader starting with a good soild rifle, scope, mount, load and anything else you can think of.

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I suggest you stay clear of lesbian diamonds for starters! wink. Some find them offensive.

Im a traditionalist and Im certainly not offended by your inquiry. Im sure there are several of the newer fast twist in-line rifles that will meet your parameters. Im just not familiar with any them, or really whats available. But I bet just about any of em would work with some practice! There will be knowledgable folks along shortly!

KW

Last edited by kaywoodie; 11/27/17.

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Ancient Order of the 1895 Winchester

"Come, shall we go and kill us venison?
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Should in their own confines with forked heads
Have their round haunches gored."

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I'm also a traditionalist and as with kaywoodie I'm not offended in the least. Everyone should hunt with what they're confident in. However, perfect doesn't exist. Adequate and effective exist in spades!!!


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The way I solved my requirement for long range muzzleloader is a T/C Omega (no longer made but available), Blackhorn 209 powder and 175 grain .357 Duplex Sabot www.prbullet.com . Weaver one piece base with XS Sights receiver sight for states that do not allow scopes or scope for states that allow them. Need a taller front sight for receiver sight. Use an MMP BBSB Ballistic Bridge sub base under the Duplex sabot. If you have accuracy problems with T/C muzzleloaders, check for runout between the QLC and the rifled portion of the barrel. QLC is an oversized portion of the muzzle to aid loading. I have seen the QLC so poorly done you can see the misalignment with your eye. TC will replace the barrel. For a quicker reload, I replace the PR bullet black sabot with a Crushed Rib sabot. Not as accurate but much quicker to load for a second shot.

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I have a Triumph and I think >200 yards should be pretty doable. I use a max load of BH209 with a MMP Blue HPH Sabot (50 Cal. rifle & .400 bullet) and shoot my own cast bullets (273 gr, .401) at ~2075 fps muzzle velocity. With this combination I've busted milk jugs a touch over 400 yards. In my experience wind is the wildcard, a 10 mph wind from the side can push my cast bullet 5 moa (16 inches) at 300 yards and a 295 gr .50 cal .18 BC bullet can be almost double that.

The mold comes from Accurate Molds, design 40-265S and looks like this:
[Linked Image]


What would Porter Rockwell do?
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If it's legal in your state, it sounds like you would be happy with a smokeless muzzleloader. I went down the same path last fall.

This is what I put together:
Remington 700ML Action
Arrowhead Sporting goods breech plug
28" Brux 1/20 Twist 45 Cal with straight flutes
Jewell Trigger
McMillan Game Scout

It's the middle rifle:
[Linked Image]

I shoot the Parker 270 Emax(sized with a swing lock die) over 70 grains of Hodgdon 4198. I'm getting 2828 fps(according to the Labradar) with this combination. After a bit of shooting at the range, I plugged all the numbers into my Gunwerks BR2.

[Linked Image]

I put this in a MDT Chassis while I was waiting on McMillan to deliver the Game Warden. The first night I had it out, I shot a doe at 405 yards. It was a heart shot. She made it about 25 yards. I shot another doe the next day in the lungs at 85 yards. It was a pretty devastating hit, and she just fell over.

[Linked Image]

Our alternative methods season in Missouri is getting ready to start back up in a couple of weeks. I'm looking forward to getting this back out to hunt.

If you are looking for more info, check out Doug's Message Boards or contact Luke at Arrowhead Sporting Goods.



Attached Images
700ML(middle).jpg (14.53 KB, 9 downloads)
Labradar.jpg (14.25 KB, 9 downloads)
doe405yards.jpg (42.12 KB, 7 downloads)
Last edited by ryanjay11; 11/28/17. Reason: imagefu is weak
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[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

That would be .50 caliber at 200 yards.


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Nice DD! Back in the day I had an old Royland Southgate percussion rifle with a false muzzle. About .36 calibre.

Would be cool to build a .40 calibre ( mebbe .38 cal) fast twist Rigby style percussion rifle someday. Before my eyes completely play out.

Last edited by kaywoodie; 11/29/17.

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Ancient Order of the 1895 Winchester

"Come, shall we go and kill us venison?
And yet it irks me the poor dappled fools,
Being native burghers of this desert city,
Should in their own confines with forked heads
Have their round haunches gored."

WS

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If you can’t use smokeless I would try to get an encore with a 45 cal Barrel. Mine is from bergara, and with a 200 gr shockwave and 120 gr by volume of bh209 I get 2400 fps and 1.25 moa. Sighted in 2.5” high at 100 puts me less than 2” low at 200 with 1400+ fpe. You could shoot the same bullet in a 50 cal with the right sabot, but you will lose some speed.

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There are a few companies building muzzle loaders that equal a 375 H&H in power with a similar trajectory. They are expensive custom rifles. My wife's cousin has one and killed an elk at 360 yds last year with it. I think it is either a Bad Bull or Ultimate Firearms

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First thing ya gotta start with is someone that can 'hold'!!


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Originally Posted by Hogwild7
There are a few companies building muzzle loaders that equal a 375 H&H in power with a similar trajectory. They are expensive custom rifles. My wife's cousin has one and killed an elk at 360 yds last year with it. I think it is either a Bad Bull or Ultimate Firearms


Think higher. More like 416Rem Mag and above. http://www.swinglock.net/page1.html
Quote
450 gr bullets can accurately be shot at velocities approaching 2900 fps


[Linked Image]

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I think the subject is a very fine [safety] line, glad I get my fix from safe Sharps rifles and black powder.

However, I do have a T/C Omega that safely fires the 290 gr Barnes tipped MZ at 2000 fps, you can kill deer/black bear all year long at 200 yards if you wish, fwiw, the nikon omega bdc scope built for this rifle went tits up with 150 grs loose 777, the 3-9x40 Redfield Revolution has been fail safe for a few years now.


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BTW, if you go with the tipped 290 Barnes MZ's, throw the yellow Barnes sabots in the trash and load with the Harvester crush rib sabots, I buy em from Harvester and load as needed.


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I am a traditionalist but not at all offended by the inlines. It's an insecure and petite man who demands all others like what he likes and dislike what he dislikes.

As a full time gunsmith who makes about 90% of my living making muzzleloaders I am someone that can tell you a thing or 2 about what works and doesn't work.
#1. There is nothing new!
The Rigby, Whitworth, Enfield, Billinghurt,,Lewis, Hurst, Ferris and many others were making bullet firing muzzle loading rifles that were as accurate and in MANY cases more accurate then any of the modern inlines I have seen so far, and they were doing it over 150-160 years ago.
The principals of an accurate muzzleloader are not new, and they have not changed.
"New and improved" may be neither.

What is new is the plastic stocks replacing the wood stocks and the modern scope mounts.

Even the in-line striker for the cap is nothing new, but inline ignition was not favored in the old days because it offered no real advantage, and was slower to access. I may disagree with the opinion that it offers nothing. I do believe the covered inlines are likely to be more forgiving in foul weather, but having only hunting with a traditional rifle and never an inline, I can't say from personal experience.

I can say without ANY doubt that the new guns are NOT more accurate then the old ones, or the modern recreations of the old ones. But the traditional style guns do hold their value and often increase in value, and the modern inlines do not.

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Originally Posted by vabowhntr
You could shoot the same bullet in a 50 cal with the right sabot, but you will lose some speed.


I'm curious about this. Seems that shooting the same weight bullet with a larger bore would net more velocity, not less?

At least that's how it works with centerfires.



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Using the same powder charge and bullet weight in a 45cal creates more pressure than the 50cal. Its pretty easy to see if you have some conicals of the same weight for a 45 and a 50. Shoot them both over a chrono with about 70gr of powder. You will probably need over 80gr in the 50cal to match the velocity of the 45 using 70gr.

Hodgdon lists over 100fps difference with some loads when comparing 45 to 50.
https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/muzzleloading_manual_2008.pdf

Last edited by Overkill45; 12/15/17.
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Interesting difference between centerfires and muzzleloaders. I guess with muzzleloaders and slow powders, the entire bore is the pressure vessel whereas with centerfires it's mostly the chamber, and the bigger cross-section of the bore allows more force to be applied to a larger diameter bullet.

Or something like that.



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Originally Posted by szihn
It's an insecure and petite man who demands all others like what he likes and dislike what he dislikes.


My favorite quote this year!


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Ancient order of the 1895 Winchester

"It's an insecure and petite man who demands all others like what he likes and dislike what he dislikes."
szihn


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