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Originally Posted by rphguy
To say that God can be killed is wrong.
They killed the physical body of Jesus, but He was still God and still very much alive.


To kill the physical body is all that can be done to any of us as well. Physical death however was not the huge punishment that Jesus suffered on our behalf. What he suffered that counts was separation from the Father. This is why Jesus cried out on the cross,"My God ,My God,why have you forsaken me?" This was the first time Jesus had ever been separated from the Father. God wasn't even Father any longer,but "My God".

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On the cross, Jesus was smothered with sin...OUR sin. He took it all on himself for us. God can't look on sin and turned his back on Jesus.


“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell

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Originally Posted by rphguy
To say that God can be killed is wrong.
They killed the physical body of Jesus, but He was still God and still very much alive.

.
Many thousands of gods have died.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
On the cross, Jesus was smothered with sin...OUR sin. He took it all on himself for us. God can't look on sin and turned his back on Jesus.


God can't look at sin?

Really?

Then I guess you don't have worry about him seeing you sin in the strip club.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
On the cross, Jesus was smothered with sin...OUR sin. He took it all on himself for us. God can't look on sin and turned his back on Jesus.


That's what I thought and was taught for years but I've come to a different conclusion the last few years. Jesus is our substitute in every way. He took every punishment that we deserved. God turned his back on Jesus.He became forsaken of God, as part of that punishment. Because God put even that punishment on Jesus,he can say to us." I'll never leave you nor forsake you!" Because Jesus took that punishment,God will never turn away from us ,ever in our worst sin.

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Originally Posted by R_H_Clark
Originally Posted by OrangeOkie
Question: "How can you believe in salvation by faith alone when the only occurrence of ‘faith alone’ in the Bible (James 2:24) says that salvation is not by faith alone?"

Martin Luther Speaks on “Faith Only” and Baptism

by Kyle Butt, M.Div.

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One popular belief in many protestant denominations is the idea that God supplies salvation to each and every person based solely on the faith of that person, apart from any action taken by that individual. This idea, often called sola fide, says, that a person is saved by faith alone. Any number of quotations demonstrating this doctrine can be cited. In a debate with Thomas Warren in 1953, L.S. Ballard affirmed the position that “the alien sinner is saved the very moment he/she believes that Jesus Christ is the son of God” (Warren and Ballard, 1953). This particular belief is commonly worded like this: “People are saved through Christ alone, by grace alone, through faith alone.”

According to the modern-day advocates of “faith alone” salvation, water baptism cannot be a requisite to salvation, because it is something “more than” faith. While space limitations prevent a thorough investigation of the biblical doctrine of baptism (see Lyons, 2003), it is interesting to note how far the “faith alone” doctrine has drifted from its original form.

The idea of being saved by faith alone is often attributed to Martin Luther. Indeed, he and the other reformers challenged the Catholic Church that sold indulgences and offered a “works-based” type of salvation. Martin Luther often taught that salvation was based on faith alone, and not received based upon a person’s meritorious works. Martin Luther did not, however, take faith alone to mean that mere mental assent to Christ’s deity was sufficient to obtain salvation. In fact, Luther’s idea of faith alone does not conform to the modern-day idea that baptism cannot be required for salvation.

While it is understood that the opinions of men are in no way authoritative when it comes to God’s plan for salvation, it is nonetheless interesting to note that Martin Luther believed wholeheartedly in the necessity of baptism as a requisite for salvation. In his Large Catechism, Luther wrote:

[I] affirm that Baptism is no human trifle, but that it was established by God Himself. Moreover, He earnestly and solemnly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. No one is to think that it is an optional matter like putting on a red coat. It is of greatest importance that we hold Baptism in high esteem as something splendid and glorious. The reason why we are striving and battling so strenuously for this view of Baptism is that the world nowadays is full of sects that loudly proclaim that Baptism is merely an external form and that external forms are useless.... Although Baptism is indeed performed by human hands, yet it is truly God’s own action (1978, pp. 98-99).

From Luther’s comments about baptism, it is obvious that he viewed water baptism as essential for salvation. Many of the protestant denominations that attribute their ideas about “faith only” to Martin Luther have not been taught that Luther’s concept of faith alone was not in opposition to works of God (like baptism and repentance), but in opposition to meritorious works by which a person believes that he or she “earns” salvation.

What, then, would Martin Luther say to those today who teach that “faith alone” excludes baptism? Listen to his words pertaining to this teaching:

But our know-it-alls, the new spirit people, claim that faith alone saves and that human works and outward forms contribute nothing to this. We answer: It is of course true that nothing in us does it except faith, as we shall hear later. But these blind leaders of the blind refuse to see that faith must have something in which it believes, that is, something it clings to, something on which to plant its feet and into which to sink its roots. Thus faith clings to the water and believes Baptism to be something in which there is pure salvation and life, not through the water, as I have emphasized often enough, but because God’s name is joined to it.... If follows from this that whoever rejects Baptism rejects God’s word, faith, and the Christ who directs us to Baptism and binds us to it (1978, pp. 101-102).

Martin Luther was a man. He made many mistakes and believed things about the Bible that were not true. It should be noted, however, that the “faith only” doctrine attributed so often to him has been misrepresented on a grand scale. Martin Luther’s words are unambiguous and clear. His “faith only” doctrine did not exclude baptism as necessary for salvation. Could it be the case that those who loudly tout the “faith only” mantra have not thoroughly investigated the works of the man to whom the doctrine is so often attributed?

The Bible does teach that those who are being saved are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). It does not, however, teach that a person is saved “by faith alone” without any further acts of obedience. Even Martin Luther recognized that water baptism is not a meritorious work that earns a person salvation. On the other hand, it is an obedient act required by God in order for people to obtain salvation.


I would not agree with that regardless of what Martin Luther may have believed.


One can be baptised in any of 3 fashions. By water, by fire, and i forget the other. Baptism saves no one. It shows submission.


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A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.

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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
The point is, your alleged God is not a very effective communicator. The all powerful creator of the Universe should be more competent this.



Wrong. You are not a competent hearer.

Folks dont believe God because they havent the sense to understand how all He says is true.

What He says is true. Believers are saved, by their faith. The Bible also shows how to live to show faith.

People, even many believers who are saved, cant believe everything the Bible says.

Ask yourself, how can one be saved and yet, not have passed muster to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

There is an answer. Many who are saved in the Bible are sinners who the Bible says are His yet they will not enter into The Kingdom.


Ecc 10:2
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.

A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.

"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".

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Originally Posted by OrangeOkie
Originally Posted by R_H_Clark
Originally Posted by OrangeOkie
Is repentance a work? Is repentance a condition of salvation, just like faith?


I guess it depends on what repentance means to you. To a middle age monk it meant walking on his knees on broken glass and flogging himself with a whip. To me it simply means to change my mind,to change direction. By my definition I don't see how a person would have faith without repentance.

I think maybe it meant the same to Jesus. Remember in Luke 19 when Zacchaeus changed his mind about how he had been collecting taxes and "repented". Jesus said Salvation had come to him.


The definition of repentance includes obedience, not just a "change of mind."

Mt 21:28-31

28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first.


So you Think one did not get his inheritance, right? I would say, not necessarily.


Ecc 10:2
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.

A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.

"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".

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Originally Posted by R_H_Clark
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
On the cross, Jesus was smothered with sin...OUR sin. He took it all on himself for us. God can't look on sin and turned his back on Jesus.


That's what I thought and was taught for years but I've come to a different conclusion the last few years. Jesus is our substitute in every way. He took every punishment that we deserved. God turned his back on Jesus.He became forsaken of God, as part of that punishment. Because God put even that punishment on Jesus,he can say to us." I'll never leave you nor forsake you!" Because Jesus took that punishment,God will never turn away from us ,ever in our worst sin.


This^^^, if we believe and ask forgiveness. How many times are we to be forgiven? Yes. Lots. How often? Every day.


Ecc 10:2
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.

A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.

"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".

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Originally Posted by jaguartx
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
The point is, your alleged God is not a very effective communicator. The all powerful creator of the Universe should be more competent this.



Wrong. You are not a competent hearer.

Folks dont believe God because they havent the sense to understand how all He says is true.

What He says is true. Believers are saved, by their faith. The Bible also shows how to live to show faith.

People, even many believers who are saved, cant believe everything the Bible says.

Ask yourself, how can one be saved and yet, not have passed muster to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

There is an answer. Many who are saved in the Bible are sinners who the Bible says are His yet they will not enter into The Kingdom.





I don't think I know what you are talking about here my friend. Can you explain,perhaps give a scripture that illustrates exactly what you are referencing?

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About whether Isaiah 7:14 says virgin or young woman...
You interpret scripture with scripture. If 2 scriptures seem to conflict, then you'd better look closer because you're wrong about 1 or the other.

Compare IS 7:14 with Luke 1:34-35. The angel has just told Mary that she'll have a baby. Mary says how can this be because I'm a virgin. Some versions say she doesn't have a man. Either way, it's plain that Mary knows where babies come from and she knows she hasn't done what's necessary.

Matthew 1:18 names the father - the Holy Spirit. "This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit."

Matthew 1:20-23 also calls her a virgin and again names the father, the Holy Spirit. Mary hasn't been unfaithful.
20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."
22 All this took place to fulfil what the Lord had said through the prophet:
23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"— which means, "God with us."


As far as the NT not calling him Immanuel, Immanuel is Hebrew. The NT is written mostly in Greek with some parts in Aramaic which was the common spoken language in Israel at the time. Immanuel in Hebrew means God with Us. Jesus, in Greek, means God is Salvation, or some variant of that. The names Immanuel and Jesus are essentially the same, just in different languages.




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Originally Posted by jaguartx
Baptism saves no one.


1 Pet 3:21

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us . .


Mk 16:16

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

grin


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Sorry, OO, i should have specified " by water". wink And, thanks for that. grin


Ecc 10:2
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.

A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.

"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".

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Since there are examples in the Bible of spirit filled believers who have NOT been baptized with water, it's save to assume that it's not required. There's the thief on the cross and Cornelius's family for starters.


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Originally Posted by jaguartx
Sorry, OO, i should have specified " by water". wink And, thanks for that. grin


Yes,as 1 Peter 3:21 goes on to say that it is ,"not the putting away of the filth of the flesh" (as in being dunked in water) that saves us but that it is, "the answer of a good conscience toward God,by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ", which saves us.

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Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Since there are examples in the Bible of spirit filled believers who have NOT been baptized with water, it's save to assume that it's not required. There's the thief on the cross and Cornelius's family for starters.


Chuck - You would agree the baptism of John was "for the remission of sins" . . . correct? (Mark 1:4)

You would also probably agree that the thief on the cross was a resident of "Jerusalem or the land of Judea . . . correct? (Mark 1:5)

I would theorize that there is a better chance the thief was baptized with the baptism of John for the remission of his sins, than your assertion that he wasn't. Either way, we are both just theorizing.

Also, Cornelius and his household were certainly baptized according to (Acts 10:47-48; 11:1,18; and 15:7)

I might also add that Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit before they heard the gospel from Peter. (Acts 11:15)

We know from Romans 10:17 that faith comes from hearing the word of God. If Cornelius was saved when the Holy Spirit fell on him, he was saved without faith, for Peter had just began to preach the gospel.


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We know nothing whatever about the thief on the cross and no, we can't theorize that he'd been baptized. We don't know where he was from or exactly what his crime was. He did say that he deserved death. We know nothing except that he repented on the cross and Jesus saved him, right then and there. If he'd been baptized, it was before his salvation so it was meaningless.

Yes, Cornelius and his family got baptized, but AFTER they were filled with the spirit. Read the order of events. Peter saw that they had received the Holy Spirit and then questioned whether it was ok to baptize gentiles. He decided that since they'd been saved and since they'd been filled with the Spirit, then baptism was ok. They were very clearly saved without baptism.


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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Quote
A person who is born again is none of those things.His righteousness is of faith and not of works. If a Christian commits a sin,it doesn't make him a sinner,speaking of the Spirit. If that were the case,a Christian would need be saved again every time he sinned and he would constantly be in and out,in and out. In fact the qualification for righteousness is so high he could never stay in the position of salvation,if it was based on his actions. The only way he could be saved would be to die the very second after being born again,before he had time to commit another sin.

I used to work with a guy who went to a pentacostal church that taught just that. They have services every day of the week so you go get saved again and again. I asked him what happened if you got saved, then drove out of the parking lot, ran a stop sign and got killed by a truck. You just sinned by running the stop sign only 10 minutes after you got saved. Do you go to hell?
He couldn't answer.


Bingo.

Hitler accepts Christ just before he pulled the trigger. Does he go to Heaven for accepting Christ, or not for his bad "work" after accepting him?

RC's example is just as good. Add in the Catholic vision of repentance and you can understand why old ladies in their final years are so buy going to confession and repenting every day they have no time to live out the finale of their lives.


אלוהים מגיע כשאתה הכי פחות מצפה


Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
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If Cornelius was saved when the Holy Spirit fell on him, he was saved without faith

Peter relates in Act 11:15 that he had just began to preach the gospel when the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius. We know from Romans 10:17 that faith comes by hearing the word of God. Cornelius could not have been saved by faith when the Holy Spirit fell on him and his family, because Peter had not yet preached his gospel sermon.

It is clear from several passages that the Holy Spirit fell on the Gentiles, without the laying on of the apostles hands (Act 8:14-18), for the purpose of convincing Peter and the six brethren of the Circumcision that the Gentiles were also acceptable to God (Act 10:28, 45; 11:15-18).

Upon hearing the Gospel sermon Cornelius and his household were baptized, just like the Jews in "the beginning," on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:38-41)


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Originally Posted by OrangeOkie
If Cornelius was saved when the Holy Spirit fell on him, he was saved without faith

Peter relates in Act 11:15 that he had just began to preach the gospel when the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius. We know from Romans 10:17 that faith comes by hearing the word of God. Cornelius could not have been saved by faith when the Holy Spirit fell on him and his family, because Peter had not yet preached his gospel sermon.

It is clear from several passages that the Holy Spirit fell on the Gentiles, without the laying on of the apostles hands (Act 8:14-18), for the purpose of convincing Peter and the six brethren of the Circumcision that the Gentiles were also acceptable to God (Act 10:28, 45; 11:15-18).

Upon hearing the Gospel sermon Cornelius and his household were baptized, just like the Jews in "the beginning," on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:38-41)


Why would you presume that Cornelius was saved without faith? Why would you presume to even know how much preaching is necessary before faith comes? Since the scripture says that we are saved by grace through faith,and since Cornelius was saved,why would you think he was saved any other way than by grace through faith?

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