Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors Model 29 pump bolt & lifters

I have often been asked questions about the differences in parts for the Model 29's, recently I got asked some questions by a member here about a gun that was missing both the bolt & lifter and I realized I didn't have a clue which bolt was required without seeing the lifter, or if any bolt would work if you used a compatible lifer, this finally motivated me to take a closer look at them, something I had planned to do sometime.

The Model 29 uses different action locking than any of the other Savage pumps - the locking lugs are on the top front of the bolt and the front of the bolt has to move up to lock, this makes chambering a cartridge a little more complicated than in the other pumps where the face of the bolt remains relatively in line with the chamber.

The original Model 29 was introduced before Hi-Speed 22 ammunition, the bolt & lifter design was changed because of that. These parts are not all compatible and that can become a problem when trying to find parts for a repair. I think these pictures will help anyone who tries to find parts for these. I know of cases where the wrong parts have been tried and resulted in more damage and cases where an attempt was made to 'fix' the part so it would fit (which it wouldn't).



In the later guns there is a relief milled in the action lock for a pin in the lifter that limits upward travel,
the early solid lifer was limited by the bottom of the bolt.



Both type Hi-Speed lifters will interchange - but the one using the screw with the step in the head requires that screw or it will bind, the other lifter will be quite loose if you use the stepped head screw with it, but it still should function.





(cont. due to 6 picture limit)

From what I have seen in the early 75's there apparently must have been a very steep learning curve for 'prick-punch operators' at Stevens - the work ranges from very neat to very crude - I assume the neat work that of a journeyman prick-punch operator and the work in the example above by his apprentice (who you could probably identify by tape on his left thumb).

The changes made for Hi-Speed did not strengthen the guns any, all they did was support the head of the cartridge case better - so I still recommend only standard velocity ammunition for all 29's. This does not include 29-A's & 29-B's which are totally different internally even though they look relatively the same externally, these should have been given a different model number. I have found that even the stocks will not directly interchange.



second type lifter - early Hi-Speed


third type lifter - Hi-Speed






As you can see from this comparison, none of the above applies to the Model 29-A or 29-B.



(cont. due to 6 picture/post limit)

Here are the some of the guns back together, can you tell which version is which from this side?
(PS - in most cases I can't.)



The 29's locking system was very similar to that on the early Remington pumps, the Model's 12 & 121 and the centerfire 14 & 141, with the front of the bolt moving down to unlock the action - the Remington design was possibly the inspiration for the design used for the Model 29, it is based on patents dating back to 1912 which were not owned by Savage but expired in 1929. The Model 29 is one of the few guns made by Savage that did not have patent dates stamped on them - Savage did not own any patents for this design.

Remington never eliminated the open slots behind the head of the cartridge, and they had two, but they did increase the size of the locking lug on the 121's.

Again Gene, your depth of knowledge and willingness to research the details is incredible, Thank You!

These little pump 22's have always struck me as overly complicated and delicate to the point of being obsolete. It's amazing they stayed in production at all, much less lasted all this time. How do these compare with the modern Henry's? And I hate to say it, but all the hammer designs really seem to simplify everything to be the all-time winning plinker 22s.

Thanks to Gene I found the right lifter, now to wait out an early pre-high speed bolt.

I like to think that the more I bug the crap out of Gene the more he learns, haha.

You certainly are the human data base with Savage's 22s. Thanks!

I suspected the same thing re: M12 and 29 similarities. My M12C is more reliable for some reason and as such is my favorite.

As always, great info and great pictures to explain it (I'd be lost without the pics).

Thanks, Gene!

Nice job Gene. This will certainly help someone figure out a thing or two.

I would suggest to Rick99 that this thread and the others Gene as done on the 22 pump design variations be saved as a sticky. Otherwise this will fade into the woodwork. Of course Gene would need to be agreeable. You can't find this anywhere else.

+1

What would be easier to organize is rather than put all of Gene's stuff into one sticky thread (the pictures are awesome, but too many for one thread), create a post in the Misc. Good Info thread which has links to each of Gene's threads.

Something like...
---------------------------------------------------

Here are links to threads by GeneB with great info

Gene's pictorial on Savage 29 bolts and lifters

Gene's thread on Model 29 pump info

<etc>
---------------------------------------------------

Just a suggestion.

Might be a decent thing to do with links to other things, like old threads with pictures from SavageFests (for those threads with pics not killed by photobucket)

He should write a book, seriously.

I like Calhoun's idea, it's a good method and is used on the Winchester forum at RFC to capture valuable threads.

Joe, if you can convince Gene, I'll buy 2.

.. and you can ask mad_dog if I already had all the answers for him when he asked... I didn't, I knew there were some differences but the above pictures are from the first time I did a detailed comparison.

I can only think of one 'hammerless' pump 22 that did not have an internal hammer, going to an external hammer with half-cock safety would eliminate the need for a separate safety but with new regulations requiring a separate safety for external hammer guns they may end up more complicated - they still require many other parts similar to hammerless designs to feed, eject & etc. I do not have a Henry to compare to, I believe they are copies of the old Erma design.

Some of Savage's designs were over complicated because they came up with 'new' designs by modifying old designs. The 1914 & 25 tube fed models are based on the 1903 and the lifter designs of both (at least two slightly different in the 1914 and one in the 25 ) are a complicated mess because they did not change the basic receiver & bolt design - the lifters are operated by grooves milled into the slide arm. The early 29's have a very simple one piece lifter - it got complicated because they modified the existing design instead of coming up with a new one - redesigned lifter = an assembly of left side + middle + right side + (2) rivets + one travel limit pin with another movable center piece + a spring (the later spot welded ones eliminated the (2) rivets) - that was all done just to eliminate the narrow slot in the bolt behind the cartridge (Remington decided they would just leave the slots in the Model 12 &121 bolts).

I like the idea of links being used to organize information, it could be done in an outline format.

I'm trying to get my Papa's Wards Western Field Model 80 (aka Savage Model 29) back in working order. When I was 10-12 years old, (I'm now 57) it worked great. When he passed away (age 72 in 1978), my Granny (passed in 2013 at the age of 103) handed it down to me as I was the only one of the four grandkids that had a interest in guns. I have never lost that interest.

I think my dad took it to a friend to have it looked at for the same feeding problem it currently has today. It looks like a ballpoint pen spring was used in the lifter assembly by that friend at an attempt to address that issue. It also does not seem to operate as smooth as I remember. I have yet to deduce that cause.

Can the experts on the Savage Model 29 look at the photos I have uploaded and tell if the lifter spring is the correct spring or not?

Thanks, Steve

GeneB will be around shortly. The man is a GOD when it comes to these pump 22's....

Steve, Just as you thought that is not the correct spring. The correct spring is shown in the picture of the lifter's above, 'V' shaped wire. The coil spring should work if it has enough force to push the cartridge up into position.... if... it will still easily compress enough to allow the center piece in the lifter to move down as the bolt goes forward - this might be the problem, it looks like there is a lot of spring there going into a small space inside the lifter and the slot is only about 0.045" wide, so I don't see how that spring fits at all. The inner part of the lifter should swing down inside of the lifter body just as far with the spring as it does without - that leaves about 1/16" of the rounded top sticking out. If it doesn't move down that far without to much force it would be putting stress on other parts and could cause more issues.

Took some pictures while I had a gun out -



Here the center piece in the lifter is just starting to be pushed down by the bolt as it moves forward,
the pressure of it against the bottom of the bolt is what moves the lifter down when it is released.

GeneB, thanks for the very thorough illustrated explanation. I wish I had your photography and photo embedding skills. I went back and revisited the spring. I can now see the modification that I assume my dad's friend made. I have attached some photos that I should have taken the first time. I guess like me, he could not locate the correct 'V' shaped spring. BTW, I checked the following sources for that particular spring to no avail:

Bob's Gun Parts
Classic Firearms and Parts
eBay
Hampel's Guns and Gunsmithing
Hoosier Gun Works
Jack First Gun Parts
Numrich Gun Parts
Poppert's Gun Parts

I'd like to put in an original spring before further troubleshooting. Do you have another source for Savage parts?

Thanks,
Steve

I now see how they got that spring to fit in the narrow slot. I think that should work fine and the problem is you have to much spring, I would look at shortening the spring or finding another shorter & lighter. From your pictures it looks like your spring has to be compressed a lot just to get the lifter together.

I never tried it but I have thought it might be possible to fashion a workable spring similar to the original from a bobby pin, they look close to the right width.

I don't know of a source for many of these parts.

two of your pictures showing how it was drilled out for the spring -

GeneB, thanks again for the advice. I'll pursue changing the spring length and spring rate to see if that fixes the issue. -Steve