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Communist ideals have killed almost 300 million people worldwide since that brilliant Karl Marx came out with his bullchitt. Could they not have visited Alaska and Oregon for more willing participants?

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So.. Commi, Nazi, Liberal, Capitalist, is all the same to you bunch.. since I have been called all of those things. I wonder if you even know what the f they are.

Strange bunch.


The US in the last 40 years:

Socialism for big corporations and military industrial complex

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Rugged individualism for the individual.
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Originally Posted by cra1948
... When you think about what these good guns everyone laments cost 60 years ago in actual wages and buying power it was more than a week’s pay for most working men. Today, a lot of us think we should be able to get a terrific rifle for half a week’s pay or less. It doesn’t work that way. That said, these cheap guns we’re buying today tend to be a lot better than the cheap guns of 60 years ago.


When the Remington 700 ADL first appeared in 1962 it cost $115. Run that through a CPI inflation calculator and it'll come to about $940 today.

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Originally Posted by hatari
Socialist troll speaks again,

"Workers Unite! Unfetter yourselves from the shackles of Capitalism!"

That stuffed worked really well in the Soviet Union, didn't it? You gotta a 5 year plan like Stain? How about a Great Leap forward like Mao? Can you kill more than 30 Million of your own people through starvation like they did. I'm sure you would only starve out the red states.

Yeah that unionshit is so good, that foreign auto makers now make more vehicles in the US than Detroit. Toyota just announced new HQs in Alabama. Mercedes Benz and Porsche are in Atlanta. SC, GA, and AL are home to assembly plants for BMW, MB, Hyundai and Kia to name just a few. Common denominator? Right to Work States.

FO commie!



So.. the automakers that are highly unionized in their home countries, where they made their success and made billions. And where the union members are part of the company boards, to make sure everybody is treated fairly and paid well, with good benefits, aswell as making sure the company will profitt.

You do know they have factories all over the globe.. they produce it where its cheapest. And in the US they use Right to Work states.. because the labour is cheapest there. And the profits are sent back, to their unions workers.

You see a trend here? Companies want cheap labour.. the cheaper the better.


The US in the last 40 years:

Socialism for big corporations and military industrial complex

&

Rugged individualism for the individual.
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Originally Posted by LeonHitchcox
The best answer I can give is that most all firearms companies are now run by accountants instead of engineers. Maximize profits by reducing costs and let the buyer beware.


After 35 years as a cfo in manufacturing I’ll share my point of view. I never witnessed an accountant saying you have to replace this or that part with plastic or a stamping etc. I have been in many discussions where a item such as a model 70 Winchester was losing sales volume to a competitors rar, axis, etc. ie the consumer is going for the lower cost item. Marketing types which in my experience are often mba laden engineers that moved to marketing because they weren’t very good engineers hate this and start wanting a cost reduced rifle to sell. The design folks again engineers set out to provide this. I cam tell you that today’s engineering schools have convinced budding engineers that there is nothing they can’t do with a piece of cheap moulded plastic and a plastic or pot metal fastener and they can supply reams of statistical data to support their position, never mind the fact that the prototype doesn’t feed or the magazine won’t stay inserted in the gun etc. so before you jump on the old cliche regarding the accountants, I’ll counter there is nothing worse than a engineer with a mba and a half a— understanding of statistics , not to mention engineers that grew up in their parents basement and couldn’t tell a socket wrench from a pair of slip joint channel lock pliers.. I often think the insurance commercial of the kid on the phone telling his dad he has a flat and says “I know what a lug wrench is dad” before turning to his friend and asking “ is this a lug wrench” to his friend who reply’s “maybe” that’s probably two engineering mba students coming home from spring break.

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Originally Posted by bangeye
Originally Posted by LeonHitchcox
The best answer I can give is that most all firearms companies are now run by accountants instead of engineers. Maximize profits by reducing costs and let the buyer beware.


After 35 years as a cfo in manufacturing I’ll share my point of view. I never witnessed an accountant saying you have to replace this or that part with plastic or a stamping etc. I have been in many discussions where a item such as a model 70 Winchester was losing sales volume to a competitors rar, axis, etc. ie the consumer is going for the lower cost item. Marketing types which in my experience are often mba laden engineers that moved to marketing because they weren’t very good engineers hate this and start wanting a cost reduced rifle to sell. The design folks again engineers set out to provide this. I cam tell you that today’s engineering schools have convinced budding engineers that there is nothing they can’t do with a piece of cheap moulded plastic and a plastic or pot metal fastener and they can supply reams of statistical data to support their position, never mind the fact that the prototype doesn’t feed or the magazine won’t stay inserted in the gun etc. so before you jump on the old cliche regarding the accountants, I’ll counter there is nothing worse than a engineer with a mba and a half a— understanding of statistics , not to mention engineers that grew up in their parents basement and couldn’t tell a socket wrench from a pair of slip joint channel lock pliers.. I often think the insurance commercial of the kid on the phone telling his dad he has a flat and says “I know what a lug wrench is dad” before turning to his friend and asking “ is this a lug wrench” to his friend who reply’s “maybe” that’s probably two engineering mba students coming home from spring break.




Sounds like a couple of "managers" working above a real engineer I know.

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Germany hasn't signed any "free trade agreements" with counties like Mexico or China where labor is cheap. They sell mostly in Europe. Their taxes are lower than American corporations, until Trump's tax cuts start taking effect. Cheap foreign competition back in the 1980's on, starting from Japan, brought quality products at lower prices because of lower labor costs. We don't import as much from Japan anymore because of their labor costs catching up with America. Lots of reasons. Also, fewer hunters and more shooters getting out of the military. AR-15's sold almost 2 million a year when Obama was in office. You can buy one cheap from around $500 to several thousand based on quality. Parts are interchangeable. Aluminum receivers are easier and cheaper to work with. Walnut is also harder to find for stocks. Laminate and plastic composites are cheaper and "just as good". Colt quit making their revolvers because of old tooling, union labor, and a state that hates guns. Most gun companies are moving south and west.

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Go south young man, go south. Right to work states.

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Originally Posted by Northman
What happened.. Destruction of the Union. Capitalism... gotta make everything cheaper and cheaper, cut benefits for the workers, use old machines, squeeze everything out of the product.


Take a look at the European makers.. there are videos on youtube.

Clean factories, highly paid workers in unions, educated in solid institutions, state of the art cnc machines, management and workers cooperating together...



And those high paid workers get to take home less than 35% of their wages.The rest goes to the nanny state that knows how to spend your money better than the brain dead working man.


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Originally Posted by Northman
Originally Posted by hatari
Socialist troll speaks again,

"Workers Unite! Unfetter yourselves from the shackles of Capitalism!"




So.. the automakers that are highly unionized in their home countries, where they made their success and made billions. And where the union members are part of the company boards, to make sure everybody is treated fairly and paid well, with good benefits, as well as making sure the company will profit.

You do know they have factories all over the globe.. they produce it where its cheapest. And in the US they use Right to Work states.. because the labour is cheapest there. And the profits are sent back, to their unions workers.

You see a trend here? Companies want cheap labour.. the cheaper the better.



Originally Posted by Northman
Originally Posted by hatari
Socialist troll speaks again,

"Workers Unite! Unfetter yourselves from the shackles of Capitalism!"

That stuffed worked really well in the Soviet Union, didn't it? You gotta a 5 year plan like Stain? How about a Great Leap forward like Mao? Can you kill more than 30 Million of your own people through starvation like they did. I'm sure you would only starve out the red states.

Yeah that unionshit is so good, that foreign auto makers now make more vehicles in the US than Detroit. Toyota just announced new HQs in Alabama. Mercedes Benz and Porsche are in Atlanta. SC, GA, and AL are home to assembly plants for BMW, MB, Hyundai and Kia to name just a few. Common denominator? Right to Work States.

FO commie!



So.. the automakers that are highly unionized in their home countries, where they made their success and made billions. And where the union members are part of the company boards, to make sure everybody is treated fairly and paid well, with good benefits, as well as making sure the company will profit.

You do know they have factories all over the globe.. they produce it where its cheapest. And in the US they use Right to Work states.. because the labour is cheapest there. And the profits are sent back, to their unions workers.

You see a trend here? Companies want cheap labour.. the cheaper the better.


Let me enlighten those that might be confused in your attempt to channel John Maynard Keynes - or Karl Marx.

1.) People buy on Price. The success of Walmart is not due to them squeezing the worker but to selling inexpensive stuff (you can read that as cheap made in China minimum quality stuff) AND THE CONSUMER IS BUYING IT! The consumer is driving the market.

I dare you to open your own store, sell the same merchandise as Walmart, but unionize it, make sure everybody has Teamster style wages benefits and retirements. Everything else is the same. What do YOU thing will happen. Will the consumer pick YOUR store over Walmart? It is from all outward appearances EXACTLY the same. What happens? The consumer sees that you have had to pass along the cost of higher wages and benefits. Do they applaud you and flock to your store because you are a socially conscious warrior and lionize you for your forward thinking? Hell, no! They see your prices are 15% higher than Walmart and say "screw this I'm shopping at Walmart because it's MY money".

Your store fails and you are back to where you are right now. Waiting for your check from the gov't every month.

2.) People start businesses to make a profit! I know that is a foreign concept to you collectivists who want to use the power of the proletariate to topple Capitalism and install yourselves as morally and intellectually superior benevolent shepherds of society, but Darwin fortunately will see you eventually fail every time.

Collectivism fails and socialism fails because it removes incentive for exceptionalism. It makes upward mobility impossible. Without the possibility of improving one's position in life, there is zero reason to give the effort it takes to succeed. You know that the system will not allow it. People do not thrive in such circumstances. Did the Soviet Bloc thrive? Hell no! People were dreary drones doing the minimum. The best examples of exceptionalism came with these people making do with less.

So let's take your own words:

Originally Posted by Northman
You see a trend here? Companies want cheap labour.. the cheaper the better.



Companies want to keep their costs down to the consumer so that they can stay competitive. If they can stay competitive and profitable while making their employees millionaires, you'd see it happen. Problem is that consumers run the market, not the CEOs. Consumers dictate what strategic steps must be made to keep a company going. If a company goes under, everybody loses their jobs.

* time out* Do not dare come back with some lameshit about some Aetna CEO making $40 million as an example of Capitalism gone bad. The head of a $40 billion company, whose compensation is linked to company performance earns it and that represents maybe 1% of revenues. Paying that guy $1 isn't the difference between profits and bankruptcy. They fail, they get fired. They get paid market rates. you want the best, you pay them or someone else takes them.

Why aren't you blaming consumers???? IF consumers would buy only Made in USA by Union Members (that have awesome benefits and retirement plans), then everyone would be happy, right? Companies would make a profit, and let's be honest right here that an averaged 7-10%/yr profit is not only reasonable but essential because you will have years where you lose money and need reserves to survive. Reserves come from consistent profits.
Companies would make their profits, stockholders - many of which are workers and UNION members would get a piece of that , and life would be cheery.

WHY IS THAT NOT THE CASE UNIVERSALLY, MR. KEYNES?

Because consumers are price conscious and thus we have competition. Ahh, but in your world you hate competition, and want the gov't to make the playing field "fair".

So while I am well aware you are a Dem Troll of the highest order getting your jollies throwing grenades around here, I'm not going to give the likes of you a pass, least some of the younger guys here read and hear drivel like yours and wonder how to respond or where your coming from.


"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017

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Originally Posted by Huntz
Originally Posted by Northman
What happened.. Destruction of the Union. Capitalism... gotta make everything cheaper and cheaper, cut benefits for the workers, use old machines, squeeze everything out of the product.


Take a look at the European makers.. there are videos on youtube.

Clean factories, highly paid workers in unions, educated in solid institutions, state of the art cnc machines, management and workers cooperating together...



And those high paid workers get to take home less than 35% of their wages.The rest goes to the nanny state that knows how to spend your money better than the brain dead working man.
Sometimes the percentage is 10% depending on the country. Hey commie (Northman) too bad the citizenry as a whole won’t ‘unionize’ against their socialist government masters in Europe and choose liberty instead of tyranny! Pretty soon they’ll all be rolling out carpets and bending over daily anyway thanks to their trust in government immigrant policy.

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govt intrusion, taxation, and regulation.


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Originally Posted by LeonHitchcox
The best answer I can give is that most all firearms companies are now run by accountants instead of engineers. Maximize profits by reducing costs and let the buyer beware.



Kind of like airlines and air fares. People demand lower prices and the suppliers (gun-makers and airlines) respond. Costs (e.g., service and quality) are cut to match the lower prices.

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This is the Golden Age of American rifles. Never been a better time to have a rifle made right here in America.

Last edited by battue; 01/12/18.

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You know in reality there are still the kind of domestic gun companies that this discussion laments passing. I offer you Kimber, Dakota, CSMC, and a few others. Today they are considered boutique producers but back in their hey day the companies such as Winchester, Remington, etc were similar smaller volume shops than the mass marketers they are today. You might point to the cost of Kimber etc. but if you look back the Winchester model 70 wasn’t cheap in 1955 dollars. That’s the reason that most of our parents didn’t own a dozen or more rifles and shotguns chambered for specialized rounds. They were lucky to own a good rifle and a single shotgun that they used for everything. Now most of us tend to own 4-5 $500 rifles instead of one really nice $2000 rifle .

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Originally Posted by bangeye
You know in reality there are still the kind of domestic gun companies that this discussion laments passing. I offer you Kimber, Dakota, CSMC, and a few others. Today they are considered boutique producers but back in their hey day the companies such as Winchester, Remington, etc were similar smaller volume shops than the mass marketers they are today. You might point to the cost of Kimber etc. but if you look back the Winchester model 70 wasn’t cheap in 1955 dollars. That’s the reason that most of our parents didn’t own a dozen or more rifles and shotguns chambered for specialized rounds. They were lucky to own a good rifle and a single shotgun that they used for everything. Now most of us tend to own 4-5 $500 rifles instead of one really nice $2000 rifle .



Spot on.


"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017

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Originally Posted by bangeye
You know in reality there are still the kind of domestic gun companies that this discussion laments passing. I offer you Kimber, Dakota, CSMC, and a few others. Today they are considered boutique producers but back in their hey day the companies such as Winchester, Remington, etc were similar smaller volume shops than the mass marketers they are today. You might point to the cost of Kimber etc. but if you look back the Winchester model 70 wasn’t cheap in 1955 dollars. That’s the reason that most of our parents didn’t own a dozen or more rifles and shotguns chambered for specialized rounds. They were lucky to own a good rifle and a single shotgun that they used for everything. Now most of us tend to own 4-5 $500 rifles instead of one really nice $2000 rifle .



Pretty hard to agrue with that

Hank


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Originally Posted by battue
This is the Golden Age of American rifles. Never been a better time to have a rifle made right here in America.



I have rifles made 60 years ago, and I have rifles made last year. We like to talk about the "old" stuff, and how much better it was, and how those rifles are so much better than today's "junk." But, today's "junk" has the benefit of more precise tolerances and better metal than yesterday's guns. I have some old rifles that shoot very good, but I have some new rifles that shoot better.

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Originally Posted by JamesJr
Originally Posted by battue
This is the Golden Age of American rifles. Never been a better time to have a rifle made right here in America.



I have rifles made 60 years ago, and I have rifles made last year. We like to talk about the "old" stuff, and how much better it was, and how those rifles are so much better than today's "junk." But, today's "junk" has the benefit of more precise tolerances and better metal than yesterday's guns. I have some old rifles that shoot very good, but I have some new rifles that shoot better.


Absolutely, if they wanted to they could put older made rifles and shotguns to shame. The only thing that would be missing is the quality of wood used in the old guns and the guys that could work on that stuff.

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Originally Posted by bangeye
You know in reality there are still the kind of domestic gun companies that this discussion laments passing. I offer you Kimber, Dakota, CSMC, and a few others. Today they are considered boutique producers but back in their hey day the companies such as Winchester, Remington, etc were similar smaller volume shops than the mass marketers they are today. You might point to the cost of Kimber etc. but if you look back the Winchester model 70 wasn’t cheap in 1955 dollars. That’s the reason that most of our parents didn’t own a dozen or more rifles and shotguns chambered for specialized rounds. They were lucky to own a good rifle and a single shotgun that they used for everything. Now most of us tend to own 4-5 $500 rifles instead of one really nice $2000 rifle .


Couldn't have said it better.



Originally Posted by JamesJr
Originally Posted by battue
This is the Golden Age of American rifles. Never been a better time to have a rifle made right here in America.



I have rifles made 60 years ago, and I have rifles made last year. We like to talk about the "old" stuff, and how much better it was, and how those rifles are so much better than today's "junk." But, today's "junk" has the benefit of more precise tolerances and better metal than yesterday's guns. I have some old rifles that shoot very good, but I have some new rifles that shoot better.


And while those "cheap" rifles may not have the look and feel of the old fashioned and hand fitted blue and walnut they quite often shoot very very well. And I can afford to buy 2 or 3.....


Ed

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