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Looking at getting back into the fun of Cowboy Action shooting. Where is the best place to pick up an affordable setup. Pistols, shotgun and lever gun to be exact. Any suggestions.

I’d suggest getting on the SASS website classifieds.

May need to be a member to access that, not sure.

They swap gear on a regular basis.

DF

I have a Winchester 1897 12 g, a Ruger Vaquero 45 LC & a Winchester 1892 45 LC.

P.M. me if interested.

Yeah, the SASS classified is good. I haven't bought anything that way, but it will give you an idea of what others might pay for the stuff you want.

I have bought virtually all my good used firearms from fellow shooters. There is no shipping hassle and the price is usually very attractive. Cash is king on these transactions, and they usually do not involve FFL paperwork. I have also been able to either watch the guns in action or even shoot a stage with them to make sure they "fit" my style or physique. Frequently the guns come with useful information (favorite data on ammo or reloading recommendations) or accessories, such as holster, recoil pad or lever wrapping, which are extras on new guns.

YMMV, but I have not been mislead on any gun that I purchased from another SASS shooter. Past buys included 1897 Win, 1892 Rossi clone, Ruger SSM, Armi San Marcos 1873 Colt clone and probably a few that I don't immediately remember.

Good advice for starters is available in a quick internet search. If I remember correctly the general advice was to follow the official SASS rule book for your category and to keep things as simple as possible. I shoot 38 Special ammo in 357 revolvers and rifle and 12 ga for the shotgun, but I am not in a class (like Classic Cowboy) that limits my choices in caliber. You can have a lot of fun for a modest investment.

Good post.

Many start, not knowing what they want or need. Getting with a club is key. CAS shooters are about the most generous, helpful, least selfish of all the shooting sports, IMO. They’re big on doing it the “cowboy way”, and they mean it. Great sport, great group, overall. Always an exception but that’s my experience from years as a shooter.

Buying up a bunch of guns is just gonna cost as you swap up. Borrow guns, try different ones.

Pistols: tricked out short stroke Rugers setup to “run like a Colt” are popular. CAS readied clones are another way to go. Those can be bought thru Taylor and other vendors.

Rifles: ‘73 clones, short stroked action jobs are the Cadillac. I personally would avoid ‘94 Winchester’s, those just can’t run with the fast dogs. ‘92’s are better but need a work over by Steve Jones. He’s the ‘92 guru. You can get CAS ready ‘92’s from him. Google him.

IMO, Marlins are ahead of Winchester’s, slightly behind ‘73’s.

Shotguns: I’ve tried them all, you gotta try them to see what’s best for you. Here’s where following the good guys that shoot each type, hear their sales pitch for why they chose their favorite. I’ve had Coyote Cap lever and pump guns. Both take skill and have a learning curve. The double may be the easiest to master, but some may argue with that. I had a Browning worked over by Ole #4 in Oregon. That’s about as slick as I’ve handled. Expensive, not entry level.

Calibers: Beginners often start with .45’s, good choice for BP. A lot of those guys and gals end up with .38 Spec. 12 ga. low powered loads rule.

Hope that helps. Feel free to PM.

DF

Does the 44-40 have any favor in the CAS arena or is it more or less a nostalgic thing?

Yes, the 44-40 has nostalgia to spare. The power factor is right up there with the 45 Colt, if that is your question.

I have found reloading the 44-40 to be more challenging than fun. The black powder route could be interesting, but messy beyond my usual preference. The brass is "semi-bottle-necked" and seems a little fragile for quantity reloading (like on a progressive). I crush one even in my single stage press every now and then, which is really rare with straight cases.

If you shoot a SASS category that requires a caliber ".40 or greater",such as Classic Cowboy, it is a contender, along with the 38-40, 44 Russian, 45 Colt, etc.

Most of the CAS/SASS game is doing what you want within your scope of skill and the enjoyment of your toys. If you like the 44-40, jump right in and have some fun. Your buds can shoot faster with mouse guns but that's not the most important matter.

You be stylin' with a big grin on your face!

Jim in NM, SASS Life

Border Doc makes good points about loading the 44-40. You have to slightly bell the case mouth, be careful seating bullets to keep from crushing cases.

The 38-40 and 44-40 were made for lever guns and work well with them. They feed well and the thin walled cases expand to make a gas seal with the chamber. .45 Colt cases are thicker and easier to load, But in lever guns using low velocity CAS loads, there isn't enough pressure to seal the thick walled case against the chamber, thus blow back can become a problem. Beginners often start with .45 Colt, many end up with .38 Spec. Black powder is the exception, the bigger cases do well.

My .45 Colt Marlin Cowboy is now a 'diller killer, shooting 300 gr. bullets at max vel with 4227. NO blowback, just a powerful round.

DF

DF & Doc,

I've read multiple comments on the 44-40/45LC chamber sealing. That said, I always see reference to 45LC low pressure/CAS loads. A brief search shows that other than +P loads, most 45LC ammo seems to fall into the 700-750fps or 850ish fps level with the 250/255gr projectiles. Is it safe to say the the higher vel. 45LC rounds are more likely to seal the chamber, verus the low velocity (lower pressure?) 45LC loads?

FWIW, I have a Taylor's Smoke Wagon in 45LC, and am eyeing a used Vaquaro at the LGS in 44-40 that can be had dirt cheap. I also have my heart set on a '73 clone, but am on the fence as to whether to 'pull the trigger' on a 44-40 or 45LC. I don't plan on shooting any of them a lot, and thus don't plan on adding another caliber to the reloading bench.

.45 Colt is easier to load for and you see more of those than .44-40's. It's nice to have pistols and rifle with the same round, although when I did that, I had loads specific for pistols, loads dedicated to rifles. If you're doing BP or need the .40+ bore size, don't forget about the .38-40. I like that one more than 44-40. I have a 1910 vintage '92 in that caliber that's really slick.

Other than specialty classes and BP, you see more .38 Spec pistols, .357 rifles using .38 brass. In my .357 '73, I used .38 Spec brass and long bullets from Moulton Lead in ME, designed to have .357 COAL with .38 Spec. brass. That worked very well. As you know, the '73 needs rounds at .357 COAL to hold rounds in the mag so that the carrier won't have to cam them back into the mag tube. That requires slightly more force running the lever, thus can slow time.

Lever guns that chamber a round at an angle (Marlin and '92) need a looser chamber to function without feeding issues. The '73 with its elevator/carrier, lines up the round to feed directly into the chamber, not at an angle. Thus they can have a tighter chamber and still function well.

Ironically, the '73 family is the best CAS choice, fast function without issues. The very strong '92 and clones are about the worst. They feed at an angle, can be COAL sensitive and are prone to stove pipe and jam when pushed too fast. Marlins are somewhere between those two, not as strong as the '92, not as fast as the '73. I have a Marlin CBC .38 Spec, with an action job by Jim Bowie in CA that's pretty fast. Just won't quite run with a tricked out, short stroked '73.

So the weakest ('73) is the fastest; the strongest ('92) is the hardest to run fast without issues. The Marlin is sitting between those two regarding strength and speed.

You can buy .454 '92 clones; you won't find a Marlin .454. And, for a good reason. The John Moses Browning '92 is strongest in class, no contest. Not even close.

Interesting.

DF

Making a choice for someone else is foolish, so I will say "do both!"

The comments above by DF are spot on. Remember that the '73 Winchester clones are copies of the Browning toggle action and they ARE NOT MEANT FOR POWERFUL LOADS. Even with modern steel, that linkage was never imagined or intended to handle stout loads. 1873 meant black powder, with CUP about 12K, IIRC. It might not loosen for years, but it is no fun to think about intentionally pushing a firearm beyond its design capacity, which is all too easily done with smokeless in a '73. I load all my 38 ammunition to the old 38 Special LEO level, i.e. a 158 gr bullet at about 850 fps, which generates about 254 KE. That's OK in the '73. The 1892 is much stronger and I routinely use 38 Spl + P or 357 Magnum strength loads in my Rossi 1892 or my Marlin. Both are fussy about COAL (cartridge over all length) and I find that 1.550" suits both. I also shoot a Puma 1892 in 45 Colt and it digests some husky loads without a whimper. I want all my ammunition to meet the knock-down energy minimum. I compete against myself with real-life firearms, not the timer or the other shooters; the lever guns (1892s and Marlin) with suitably powerful ammo are also useful here at the Homestead for varmints. The Uberti goes back in the safe. I owned a Marlin Centennial model 44-40 and enjoyed it, but it had incredibly stunning AAA wood and a collector friend wanted it very badly. If I wanted a true Old West lever gun, that one sure filled the bill and I thought it was a good value even before I considered selling it.

The 45 cases that come out sooty, showing some blow-back in the chamber, are not necessarily too slow or under-loaded, but the burn rate (powder choice) may need some tweaking. Even modern 44-40 cases are, as mentioned, made of thinner brass, black powder era style, so less blow-back with smokeless, too. Pressure / velocity discussions require more space and time than we have here, but the reloading manuals (esp. Hodgdon) usually have good suggestions for loads for Cowboy guns. Stay within the lines from reliable manufacturers (not the innerweb fiction), at least for the first 30 years of reloading, and use a chronograph if possible to guide your actions.

So, the used (but-not-abused?) Vaquero sounds like a deal that is too good to pass up. Shooting is better than conjecture; take it to the range and burn some powder. Then your decision about the '73 caliber (45 Colt or 44 WCF?) will be made more easily.

Since you are reloading your ammo, the safety factor is up to you, and, honest, one more cartridge is not going to be a big deal. The straight wall cartridges (45 Colt, 38 Special, 357 magnum) are easier to work with, but not exactly 1880 style, which is the forte of the 44-40. The reminder from DF is timely; match your pistol and lever rifle cartridges whenever possible. Starting out, yeah, we have some mismatches that are clumsy but we learn from that experience too.

Unless you are on a tight budget, buy what looks to have FUN written all over it, especially if the price is right. You can probably turn it around quickly if you don't lean on it too hard. Or, more likely, you will learn new skills and maybe adapt nicely to a different goal / idea / tool / style for your SASS/CAS shooting, which may be proof of intelligent life, or at least an adventuresome spirit.

Well, the 44-40 Vaquero followed me home last night. If nothing else for the 'cool' factor. As for a '73, buying both would be great, unfortunately the bankroll won't support buying one in 44-40 AND 45LC.

Of course, that ‘73 needs to be tricked out.

DF

USFAHUNTER:

I was a SASS member for a year, shooting in local Cowboy Action matches during that year. My gunsmith, Tom Mason (SASS handle Doc Dag), remains an active SASS member and competes in both local and out-of-town Cowboy Action shoots. Tom earned an Associate's degree in Gunsmithing at the Colorado School of Trades some years ago, and remains an active gunsmith on a part-time basis. Naturally, much of his business is repairing and enhancing "cowboy guns."

He certainly performed outstanding work on my Uberti-made Taylor & Company pair of replica Colt Model P revolvers (.357 Mag, 5 1/2 inch barrel, with Colt 1860 Army grips), Uberti-made Taylor & Company replica Winchester 1873 .357 Mag carbine, and a 12 ga Spanish hammerless SxS shotgun (damages barrels trimmed to 22 inches per my request). Tom has done other rifle, shotgun and handgun work for me, to my total satisfaction.

Tom's shop is located at 727 Lake Doniphan Road, Excelsior Springs MO 64024, 816-804-7135. His basic schedule is 9:30 A.M. - 6:00 P.M., Tuesday - Thursday.

By the way, do try the Uberti-made Taylor & Company replica Colt Single Action Army revolver with the Colt 1860 Army grip. Maybe you'll like it, maybe you won't. I worked very well for me.

Short stroke action job. '73 Carbine by Pioneer...

Wood fitted and finished by me, checkered by a pro.

About as slick and fast as I've handled or seen.

Big white dot front, full buckhorn rear, used as a giant peep sight with metal insert for fine bead removed.

Center big dot in very large "peep sight", hits steel every time.

DF

I thought I’d chime in on loading the 44-40.

I’ve been loading it since the late ‘80’s with the traditional powders 2400, 4227, etc. for an 1894 Marlin I bought decades ago. Ken Waters classified the Marlin as a Class 2 rifle and were appropriate for the higher pressure loads introduced at the turn of the century for the ’92 Winchester. At the time, getting brass was tough and the usual way to get it was to buy Winchester or Remington factory loads which of course were for Class 1 pressures. When I started reloading the brass I quickly found out the warnings about crushing brass because of the thin walls. With brass being scarce, I learned to carefully bell and crimp. I took the ’94 hunting for white tails a few times but never found a shot so my shooting has been 100 yd targets.

Because of the growth of the Cowboy action shooting, brass gradually became available and less hoarding required. When Lee Precision came up with their factory crimp die I found it to considerably ease the issues often found with the dreaded crimp bulge when using the seating die doing the crimp.

So after a few decades of loading the 44-40, my 2 cents is if you are reloading the 44-40 you save yourself aggravation if you use a mild belling of the case (too much causes splits later) and only use the seating die to have the bullet put in place for the factory crimp die to crimp at the cannelure. My other comment is to first use the traditional powders such as 4227 and 2400… Loaddata.com can provide other powder options if those are not in your cabinet. Lastly, watch if the loads are class 1 or class2 loads… this is important for Henry’s, 66’ and ‘73’s Winchester clones as others here on this thread have noted. Even though they have new steels, toggle link actions are not as strong as found in ’94 Marlins or ’92 Winchesters. Pistols also warrant this thought. All in all, I’ve found the 44-40 not a load problem with careful attention to the thin wall case. Having said that, my use has been with single stage presses… those who want to use progressive presses may have other issues I’ve not encountered.

A few weeks back, I decided to add an Uberti pistol in 44-40 to my collection. I loaded up my usual powders but elected to go light on the powder loads in comparison to what I had used on the Marlin. I had read some anecdotal comments on the Forum and elsewhere about Trail Boss and VV tin star (N32C) with their ability to have more volume in the case than the pistol powders I’ve used. Also, they are supposedly closer to Black Powder volume and were developed with Cowboy action shooting in mind. Without checking for load data I bought a few pounds of Tin Star and went looking for published loads. I thought I’d find load data on Loaddata.com and the VV website… but wrong! They have it for the 45 colt, 38 special, and other pistol rounds but not (as yet) for the 44 WCF. So, that reflects my other post asking for any published data or even anecdotal data.

So far, I haven’t gotten any feedback on the Tin Star and have decided to do the Ken Waters approach and am starting with 8 gr. and watching case web expansion and primer. If anyone is interested, I’ll publish on the forum my results. The intent is to have reasonable accuracy and not damage the Uberti or myself.

Edited to correct spelling error.