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Campfire Kahuna
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Ray,
The .375 H&H minimum for dangerous game in Africa was established in British colonies back when both expanding and solid bullets were primitive. It doesn't apply in many other countries, where if there is a minimum (sometimes there isn't) it's usually something like the ballistics of the 9.3x62, mostly because hunters found it worked well on buffalo and elephants, even with relatively poor bullets. (There's also the question of why a .375 H&H would be necessary for leopard hunting, which apparently was the regulation in Kenya, because leopards were considered dangerous game.)
But plenty of African hunters have used much smaller rifles on buffalo. I know three African PH's who've killed quite a few with the 7mm Remington Magnum, .30-06 and .300 Winchester Magnum, using modern premium bullets. One of those guys killed several hundred with the .30-06 and 180-grain Partitions, mostly using chest shots, when culling on a big ranch in Zimbabwe.
When I started hunting big game in my home state of Montana it had a long-standing minimum requirement of .23 caliber, mostly because of the .220 Swift, which some people had started using on deer and other big game. This upset the guys who made up the game commission, even though I doubt any of them had ever even seen a .220 Swift used on big game, because "everybody knows" a .22 isn't enough for deer.
However, the regulation was quietly dropped a number of years ago, probably because more people started using the .220 Swift and, especially, the .22-250 on deer, and found they worked fine. In fact I knew an older game department warden who preferred the Swift for culling elk that were tearing apart ranchers' haystacks, and know an ex-outfitter who prefers the .22-250 for his elk hunting these days. Mostly he hunts cows for meat, rather than the bulls he used to guide for, because cows tend to live in herds, these days often in bigger herds, and he found his 7mm Magnum shot through an elk too often, risking wounded another. So these days he shoots cow elk with his .22-250, and the bullets don't go through--but kill elk just fine. He can do that legally because eventually the game department realized that hunters will use cartridges that work, regardless of a few hundredths of an inch in bullet diameter.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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It seems like this thread is moving nowhere. Are we really going to argue the validity of sensible minimums now? I'm sure, with an accurate 223 and the right bullets, that I could stop any grizzly mid-charge with a shot in the head. That's right. A long time ago I was looking at some photos of a very large bear skull that had very small holes on the bone right in front of the ear canal. According to the story, a Native lady had shot and dropped the bear with a .22LR. No idea if the story is true or not. But this one is: a few years ago and older fellow had to go to court over an illegal kill of a moose in his backyard. The guy was bothered by the moose eating some of the plants in his garden, so he shot it on the side, by the lungs, with a pellet gun. The pellet traveled between two ribs, and got lodged in the lungs. Shortly after the shot the moose bedded, and a few hours later it died. So a sensible minimum is a rimfire 22 cal... I think we're all good with our regular hunting rigs against dangerous game, as long as we can make the headshot. Quite funny, but that's not the point I was trying to make. In my view there aways are differences from one cartridge to the next, and that the bigger or more powerful ones provide greater or bigger punch. A second point that I was trying to make is that most moose hunters in bear country lean toward bigger gun calibers rather than small calibers.
Last edited by Ray; 01/15/18.
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Ray,
The .375 H&H minimum for dangerous game in Africa was established in British colonies back when both expanding and solid bullets were primitive. It doesn't apply in many other countries, where if there is a minimum (sometimes there isn't) it's usually something like the ballistics of the 9.3x62, mostly because hunters found it worked well on buffalo and elephants, even with relatively poor bullets. (There's also the question of why a .375 H&H would be necessary for leopard hunting, which apparently was the regulation in Kenya, because leopards were considered dangerous game.)
But plenty of African hunters have used much smaller rifles on buffalo. I know three African PH's who've killed quite a few with the 7mm Remington Magnum, .30-06 and .300 Winchester Magnum, using modern premium bullets. One of those guy killed several hundred with the .30-06 and 180-grain Partitions, mostly using chest shots, when culling on a big ranch in Zimbabwe.
When I started hunting big game in my home state of Montana it had a long-standing minimum requirement of .23 caliber, mostly because of he .220 Swift, which some people had started using on deer and other big game. This upset the guys who made up the game commission, even though I doubt any of them had ever even seen a .220 Swift used on big game, because "everybody knows" a .22 isn't enough for deer.
However, the regulation was quietly dropped a number of years ago, probably because more people started using the .220 Swift and, especially, the .22-250 on deer, and found they worked fine. In fact I knew an older game department warden who preferred the Swift for culling elk that were tearing apart ranchers' haystacks, and know an ex-outfitter who prefers the .22-250 for his elk hunting these days. Mostly he hunts cows for meat, rather than the bulls he used to guide for, because cows tend to live in herds, these days often in bigger herds, and he found his 7mm Magnum shot through an elk too often, risking wounded another. So these days he shoots cow elk with his .22-250, and the bullets don't go through--but kill elk just fine. He can do that legally because eventually the game department realized that hunters will use cartridges that work, regardless of a few hundredths of an inch in bullet diameter.
I understand your points 100%, specially about gun calibers such as the .30s and larger being used in Africa. After gun and load has been decided for the game to be hunted, shot placement is paramount, and that's why I mentioned in one of my posts that the fact that a caribou was dropped with a 100-grain bullet from a .257 and one was not with a 225-grain from a .338WM had nothing to do with ballistics, but probably with shot placement. In relation to hunting very large animals with smaller caliber guns, the majority of hunters more than likely are going to choose a gun and ammo that is more suitable for the game being hunted (on the bigger side) which in the case in Alaska. As I mentioned before, the .30-06, .300WM, and .338WM are the most popular with Alaska hunters. That some hunters decide to use the smallest caliber guns for hunting moose in bear country is the exception.
Last edited by Ray; 01/15/18.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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sooooooo, bullet diameter does make a difference? Or does it just makes a difference on grizzly bears? Pardon the sarcasm  There is a difference on deer between a 243 and 270 caliber (BTDT) There is a difference on elk between 30 and 338 caliber (BTDT) There is difference on buffalo between 375 and 416 caliber (in print from many PH's) There is a difference between 9mm and 45's (plenty of lethality studies) Phil Shoemaker carries a 458, and is a huge 30-06 advocate. Speaks volumes JB, you state for grizzly protection you would carry a 30-06 with 200gr partitions, I would choose a 338-06 with 210gr as a minimum, or my 9.3x64 Brenneke, 375 H&H, or 404 J. Bigger diameter hits harder, but dead is dead. If you want something that hits harder, choose a bigger diameter. Once again, simple physics. All my experience with grizzly's has been in WY, ID, and Alaska. Never had any problems, some encounters. Was usually carrying my longbow as a primary weapon with bear spray or a 44 with 300gr hard cast bullets. I spend many hours reading medical studies, therefore I am no stranger to scientific methods. All my experience is subjective observations. Maybe I should have documented all my experiences, but even with detailed documention, there are too many uncontrolled variables with in the field "testing". I certainly agree with you relating to bullet size, weight, and construction. The differences between bullet diameters or calibers, regardless of how minuscule the differences may be, still make a difference overall. It's a matter of physics, something that can't be exact by field testing, since every bullet shot does not go thought the same space and time, nor exact medium. That's why I rely on ballistics first. If bullet diameter would not make a difference we all would be shooting the same caliber for all hunting (there would not be a minimum gun caliber), and there is no gun out there that can tackle all types of game, from the smallest to the largest and most dangerous. Good points gentlemen, if indeed diameter, weight, construction and momentum didn't matter, then why pray tell are we not punching fortified targets with the feared 17 rimfire gatling guns? The 50 BMG, 20 and 30mm's are certainly a wasted of powder and lead ;] Gunner, let me tell you right now, when the big 50 starts chopping car parts and walls down around Haji they put their heads down a little more than with the 5.56’s...   You bet!
Trump Won!
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Great subjective example Jordan
Way too many variables and unknowns to draw any valid conclusions.
Cow elk shot with a150gr 270, took off like it wasn't hit. Found 125yards later down in a hole.
Cow elk shot with a 225gr 338 WM, hit, stunned staggered and died within yards.
Running Cow elk shot with a 140gr, 270, could not even tell it was hit, followed herd tracks in the snow, found dead.
Cow elk shot with 210gr 338-06, drop in it's tracks.
Cow elk shot with 100gr 243, went back to feeding, 3 more shots and it finally slumped to the grounds.
Cow elk shot with 210gr 338-06, jumped a little, stumbled 20 yards and tipped over.
Cow elk shot with 180gr, 300 Win Mag flinched at the shot and ran with/lost in the herd until she t-boned an aspen tree.
Bull elk shot with 225gr, 338 WM, tried to take off with herd labored behind and peeled away from herd tipped over.
Cow elk shot with 150gr, 270, spun at the shot and ran like nothing happened.
Bull elk shot with 210gr, 338-06, bull visibly shaken, stood in place, turned broadside and took another, went down.
Bull elk shot with 150gr, 300 WSM, spun at the shot and ran 60 yards.
Cow elk shot with 225gr, 35 Whelen, staggered at the shot, visibly shaken, went less than 10 yards.
Big bull caribou shot with 150gr, 270, stiffened at the shot, locked up. Second shot, swayed him and tipped over.
Big bull caribou shot with 150gr, 270, jumped at the shot and started spinning circles in place, two more shot not 4 inches apart. Bull died within feet of initial shot.
Mule deer buck shot with 210gr 338-06, locked up in place and tipped over.
Spike whitetail with 100gr, 243, did a little hop at the shot and went back to eating in the cornfield. Thought it was a miss.
Whitetail buck shot with 117gr, 257 Roberts, spun at the shot and covered 100 plus yards out of sight.
I have too examples of 222 and 22-250 on deer to list. They will show little to no reaction, run and die. Unless skeletal structure is broke down.
I have too examples of 130gr with 270 on deer to list, but have never questioned a hit or a miss. The reaction makes it very clear.
I intentionally left out, shots that caused skeletal structural damage, that changes everything.
How is that for subjective examples of one?
There are many factors that influence the response of the animal at the shot. Bullet diameter is one of them. But you have to eliminate all the other variables to have a valid statistical study that will stand up under scrutiny.
Nobody here has performed that study on live animals.
Arcus Venator
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But that was the point that I made, Ray, while you continue to bring up irrelevant things. With every animal, every time, what you hit them with is nearly irrelevant compared to where you hit them.
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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That's a very comprehensive article. It most have taken a lot of time for the author to write it.
Last edited by Ray; 01/15/18.
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But that was the point that I made, Ray, while you continue to bring up irrelevant things. With every animal, every time, what you hit them with is nearly irrelevant compared to where you hit them. Good points. I just misunderstood.
Last edited by Ray; 01/15/18.
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Ray their is a bunch of info on bullet performance of other calibers too. Lots of info.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Great subjective example Jordan
Way too many variables and unknowns to draw any valid conclusions.
Cow elk shot with a150gr 270, took off like it wasn't hit. Found 125yards later down in a hole.
Cow elk shot with a 225gr 338 WM, hit, stunned staggered and died within yards.
Running Cow elk shot with a 140gr, 270, could not even tell it was hit, followed herd tracks in the snow, found dead.
Cow elk shot with 210gr 338-06, drop in it's tracks.
Cow elk shot with 100gr 243, went back to feeding, 3 more shots and it finally slumped to the grounds.
Cow elk shot with 210gr 338-06, jumped a little, stumbled 20 yards and tipped over.
Cow elk shot with 180gr, 300 Win Mag flinched at the shot and ran with/lost in the herd until she t-boned an aspen tree.
Bull elk shot with 225gr, 338 WM, tried to take off with herd labored behind and peeled away from herd tipped over.
Cow elk shot with 150gr, 270, spun at the shot and ran like nothing happened.
Bull elk shot with 210gr, 338-06, bull visibly shaken, stood in place, turned broadside and took another, went down.
Bull elk shot with 150gr, 300 WSM, spun at the shot and ran 60 yards.
Cow elk shot with 225gr, 35 Whelen, staggered at the shot, visibly shaken, went less than 10 yards.
Big bull caribou shot with 150gr, 270, stiffened at the shot, locked up. Second shot, swayed him and tipped over.
Big bull caribou shot with 150gr, 270, jumped at the shot and started spinning circles in place, two more shot not 4 inches apart. Bull died within feet of initial shot.
Mule deer buck shot with 210gr 338-06, locked up in place and tipped over.
Spike whitetail with 100gr, 243, did a little hop at the shot and went back to eating in the cornfield. Thought it was a miss.
Whitetail buck shot with 117gr, 257 Roberts, spun at the shot and covered 100 plus yards out of sight.
I have too examples of 222 and 22-250 on deer to list. They will show little to no reaction, run and die. Unless skeletal structure is broke down.
I have too examples of 130gr with 270 on deer to list, but have never questioned a hit or a miss. The reaction makes it very clear.
I intentionally left out, shots that caused skeletal structural damage, that changes everything.
How is that for subjective examples of one?
There are many factors that influence the response of the animal at the shot. Bullet diameter is one of them. But you have to eliminate all the other variables to have a valid statistical study that will stand up under scrutiny.
Nobody here has performed that study on live animals.
Hell of a report CRS, Thanks.
Trump Won!
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Great subjective example Jordan
Way too many variables and unknowns to draw any valid conclusions.
Cow elk shot with a150gr 270, took off like it wasn't hit. Found 125yards later down in a hole.
Cow elk shot with a 225gr 338 WM, hit, stunned staggered and died within yards.
Running Cow elk shot with a 140gr, 270, could not even tell it was hit, followed herd tracks in the snow, found dead.
Cow elk shot with 210gr 338-06, drop in it's tracks.
Cow elk shot with 100gr 243, went back to feeding, 3 more shots and it finally slumped to the grounds.
Cow elk shot with 210gr 338-06, jumped a little, stumbled 20 yards and tipped over.
Cow elk shot with 180gr, 300 Win Mag flinched at the shot and ran with/lost in the herd until she t-boned an aspen tree.
Bull elk shot with 225gr, 338 WM, tried to take off with herd labored behind and peeled away from herd tipped over.
Cow elk shot with 150gr, 270, spun at the shot and ran like nothing happened.
Bull elk shot with 210gr, 338-06, bull visibly shaken, stood in place, turned broadside and took another, went down.
Bull elk shot with 150gr, 300 WSM, spun at the shot and ran 60 yards.
Cow elk shot with 225gr, 35 Whelen, staggered at the shot, visibly shaken, went less than 10 yards.
Big bull caribou shot with 150gr, 270, stiffened at the shot, locked up. Second shot, swayed him and tipped over.
Big bull caribou shot with 150gr, 270, jumped at the shot and started spinning circles in place, two more shot not 4 inches apart. Bull died within feet of initial shot.
Mule deer buck shot with 210gr 338-06, locked up in place and tipped over.
Spike whitetail with 100gr, 243, did a little hop at the shot and went back to eating in the cornfield. Thought it was a miss.
Whitetail buck shot with 117gr, 257 Roberts, spun at the shot and covered 100 plus yards out of sight.
I have too examples of 222 and 22-250 on deer to list. They will show little to no reaction, run and die. Unless skeletal structure is broke down.
I have too examples of 130gr with 270 on deer to list, but have never questioned a hit or a miss. The reaction makes it very clear.
I intentionally left out, shots that caused skeletal structural damage, that changes everything.
How is that for subjective examples of one?
There are many factors that influence the response of the animal at the shot. Bullet diameter is one of them. But you have to eliminate all the other variables to have a valid statistical study that will stand up under scrutiny.
Nobody here has performed that study on live animals.
I have plenty of examples where smaller diameter bullets showed great reaction, and large diameter bullets showed little reaction. For instance, the cow elk I shot with a 223 this fall stumbled maybe 15 yards and died. A whitetail doe shot a couple seasons back with a 338-06 ran a good quarter mile; I tracked her on hands and knees through the Russian Olives, finding her with a hole in the lungs and liver. Those are extreme examples, but in general my experience has shown that initial bullet diameter is one of the last factors that matters in killing game. Bullet construction and placement are far more important factors affecting how an animal dies, along with an individual animal's tenacity.
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Ray their is a bunch of info on bullet performance of other calibers too. Lots of info. Thanks. I will take a good look to the articles. Lots of useful information in there.
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Ray their is a bunch of info on bullet performance of other calibers too. Lots of info. Thanks. I will take a good look to the articles. Lots of useful information in there. Some good stuff there and worth reading. He does have a couple of biases that shine through at times but overall it is excellent.
Gerry.
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It’s rarely the case the 338 WM doesn’t generate a lot of verbiage when it headlines in a thread. My own experience with it leads me to a pretty straightforward conclusion; anything you can do with a 338 WM, you can do with a 30-06.
If I want more than the 30-06 I’d skip right over the 338 WM and get something bigger.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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CRS,
Both you and Ray have mentioned physics. What physical quatity are you referring to? If you’re talking about a larger diameter bullet doing more damage, and consequently leading to greater incapacitation, you’ll have to be more specific regarding the mechanisms by which that is true. If I shoot a gopher with a .224 50gr VM and a .243 55gr VM, the incapacitation is the same. If I shoot a piece of AR500 plate with a .224 75AM and a .308 208AM, damage done is nearly equal. If I shot a cape buff with a .17 Fireball and a .224 Fireball, assuming similar bullet construction, incapacitation would like be similar despite a caliber difference of 0.052”, or about 30%, which is greater than the difference between a .300 and a .338. The “physics” involve a lot more than simple caliber differences.
I’ve related this experience before, but I’ll do so again to illustrate that bigger calibers don’t always have a more visible effect on game:
One day when I was guiding a couple of caribou hunters, I saw something that served as another piece of evidence that supported the notion that big guns don’t always hit harder and kill quicker. One of the hunters was using a .25-06, the other a .338WM. Both shot caribou at ~250 yards. Bull caribou can exhibit similar vitality to elk if they're not put down right away with the first shot. The bull hit with the 100gr .257" bullet dropped at the shot, a very dramatic reaction to the shot. The bull shot with the 225gr .338" bullet showed no visible reaction at the first shot. Nor at the second shot. The herd started to wander off when the shooting started, and the targeted bull turned around this way and that, looking nervous about his friends walking away. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Finally he started to slowly feed in the direction the herd went. It took 4 hits through the vitals from various angles to finish the job, and one of those was a finisher when we finally walked up on it. All hits were through the shoulders/lungs ranging from broadside to quartering, and the bull showed no reaction to any of them. Internal damage to the vitals was catastrophic. Unfortunately, physics can’t currently predict the vitality of each individual animal, so there is no way to know how an animal will react to a shot, regardless of the caliber used, short of physically dismembering the critter, as in my gopher example. The examples you have told have nothing to do with ballistics (physics), but more than likely shot placement. There are too many variables. There was a story about two hunters in Alaska, one who was using a .375H&H loaded with 300-grain Partition ammo, and the other a .338WM with 250-grain Partition. Both shot several times at the bear, but it ran into the brush. About 30 minutes later they started tracking the bear following the blood trail. During the tracking process the bear charged, and again both fired their rifles at the bear and dropped it a few feet in front of them. I remember asking this question: "when you opened the bear, did you figure how many times the bear was hit through the vitals?" I never got an answer, but these two hunters were dead-set to never use a .338 nor a .375 for bear hunting again. And there is no way that anybody can convince me that there is no difference in bullet "thump" from one cartridge to the next. If there were no differences, then the 6.5 would duplicate the .30-06, and this one would duplicate the .338WM, a .338WM would shoot like a .375H&H. Why would anybody need a .375H&H when the .338 outshoots it? Why would there be caliber "minimums" for hunting certain game species in Africa? Why would the Alaska F&G recommend a certain caliber and ammo as a minimum to hunt bison? Negative, I broke down all animals personally, and the .257”-hit bull did not have CNS or major skeletal damage. It was simply a case of a “wimpy” animal versus an extremely tough one.
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Great subjective example Jordan
Way too many variables and unknowns to draw any valid conclusions.
Cow elk shot with a150gr 270, took off like it wasn't hit. Found 125yards later down in a hole.
Cow elk shot with a 225gr 338 WM, hit, stunned staggered and died within yards.
Running Cow elk shot with a 140gr, 270, could not even tell it was hit, followed herd tracks in the snow, found dead.
Cow elk shot with 210gr 338-06, drop in it's tracks.
Cow elk shot with 100gr 243, went back to feeding, 3 more shots and it finally slumped to the grounds.
Cow elk shot with 210gr 338-06, jumped a little, stumbled 20 yards and tipped over.
Cow elk shot with 180gr, 300 Win Mag flinched at the shot and ran with/lost in the herd until she t-boned an aspen tree.
Bull elk shot with 225gr, 338 WM, tried to take off with herd labored behind and peeled away from herd tipped over.
Cow elk shot with 150gr, 270, spun at the shot and ran like nothing happened.
Bull elk shot with 210gr, 338-06, bull visibly shaken, stood in place, turned broadside and took another, went down.
Bull elk shot with 150gr, 300 WSM, spun at the shot and ran 60 yards.
Cow elk shot with 225gr, 35 Whelen, staggered at the shot, visibly shaken, went less than 10 yards.
Big bull caribou shot with 150gr, 270, stiffened at the shot, locked up. Second shot, swayed him and tipped over.
Big bull caribou shot with 150gr, 270, jumped at the shot and started spinning circles in place, two more shot not 4 inches apart. Bull died within feet of initial shot.
Mule deer buck shot with 210gr 338-06, locked up in place and tipped over.
Spike whitetail with 100gr, 243, did a little hop at the shot and went back to eating in the cornfield. Thought it was a miss.
Whitetail buck shot with 117gr, 257 Roberts, spun at the shot and covered 100 plus yards out of sight.
I have too examples of 222 and 22-250 on deer to list. They will show little to no reaction, run and die. Unless skeletal structure is broke down.
I have too examples of 130gr with 270 on deer to list, but have never questioned a hit or a miss. The reaction makes it very clear.
I intentionally left out, shots that caused skeletal structural damage, that changes everything.
How is that for subjective examples of one?
There are many factors that influence the response of the animal at the shot. Bullet diameter is one of them. But you have to eliminate all the other variables to have a valid statistical study that will stand up under scrutiny.
Nobody here has performed that study on live animals.
Thank you, that’s my point exactly. So anybody saying that they can draw a direct correlation between caliber and animal reaction to the shot is fooling themselves, unless more controlled experimentation is conducted. I have not personally seen anything that would lead me to conclude that a strong correlation between similar calibers and animal reaction exists, but I can’t say conclusively that it doesn’t exist. We’re all just reporting our experiences. FWIW, the reports are anecdotal, but not subjective. We’re objectively reporting what we witnessed, unless of course some of the reports are influenced by a bias.
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I had an outlier with a 225gr, 338 Win Mag on a mature whitetail buck. I knew from his reaction, that I hit him. He did a kick then took off after the doe he was with. I watched him run about 100 yards and jump a fence like nothing was wrong. He continued another 40 yards out of sight. He easily went 250 yards with a 338 through the ribs. The one contrary anectdotal experience I remember. I do not remember on the dozens of deer and antelope we have stunt shot with 22 or even 243 caliber where I thought, wow that hit them good. Knocked them for a lopp, unless skeletal structure was broken down. I do not ever remember shooting deer with 270 on up where I questioned the shot, with the one exception stated above. Where I knew he was hit, but questioned the response to the shot and how far he traveled. I can say the same thing on elk with the line being drawn between 30cal and 338 cal. I do not ever remember being impressed by 30 cal and below. The closest was the bull listed in the previous post that was shot with the same 225gr, 338 Win Mag. Knew he was hit, took off with the herd but lagged behind, then peeled off from the herd and died. 225gr Federal Trophy bonded factory load circa 1997. What I am specifically talking about is the animals response from impact to death. Having that visual affirmation is good IMO, not necessary, but good. Having bowhunted for 30 plus years, I have no issues with shooting an animal and watching them run off. I have no personal agenda, just stating what I have seen and my thoughts. Those are extreme examples, but in general my experience has shown that initial bullet diameter is one of the last factors that matters in killing game. Bullet construction and placement are far more important factors affecting how an animal dies, along with an individual animal's tenacity. I cannot disagree with you. Most studies throw out the extreme examples for statistical validity.
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It’s rarely the case the 338 WM doesn’t generate a lot of verbiage when it headlines in a thread. My own experience with it leads me to a pretty straightforward conclusion; anything you can do with a 338 WM, you can do with a 30-06.
If I want more than the 30-06 I’d skip right over the 338 WM and get something bigger. Pretty much true. What I find funny is how much effort is put forth in convincing other people how owning a 338 is wrong. I’ve been a medium bore nut for decades and will be the first to admit there isn’t much earthshaking about them. That being said... you are in great company owning a 338 WM. Like EVERY cartridge the 338 WM isn’t perfect and has a whole heap of pros and cons, it’s just another cartridge. I often wonder how popular a 338 WM would be as a one gun choice in Africa if it was legal for buff and what not.
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,296
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,296 |
Awhile back I shot some 225's and 200 grain Accubonds (338 Win) into jugs along with the 150 Bitterroots and 175 Bitterroots from my 270 WSM at 3100 and 3050 from the Mashburn. What I found sorta enlightening was the BBC's expanded wider than the 225 and 200's, retained more weight, but didn't quite penetrate as far, but not a bunch less either. I guess that is when I sorta saw that bullets make the "hitting harder" observation versus just sheer caliber. I have taken a few elk with all of them (BBC's) and haven't seen any of them act much differently than a handful of elk taken with the 338 with Partitions, Accubonds and this year with the Scirocco. I will say I think things stop much faster with a wider expanding bullet that destroys more animal parts. I do like the way the wide expanding 338 bullets work, but no more than similar great bullets in the 270 and 7mm's.
Semper Fi
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