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My father was a history and economics professor in a small, Christian, liberal arts college. The school’s policy regarding employees was very helpful in that one of the benefits to their family members was free tuition. My sib’s eventually included two lawyers, a physician, and a pastor, not to mention myself who became a high school teacher and then went back and on to a carreer in Anesthesia and pain management. That includes two BS’s (please refrain), diplomas, a MS, doctoral work, and various credentials.

My father always said, having been in the Phillipines at age eighteen during WWII, and then in his twenties having completed a good part of his education under the GI Bill; having seen many college students flail away without goals while wasting good money other than the weekend beer and pizza, that all kids should do two years of national service after high school. Two years to grow up some, get some perspective and learn responsibility. Generally, that’s still a very good idea I think. When you do see a late twenty-year-old-something in college, they are usually focused and driven.

I’m still somewhat schizo- though regarding college and a good BS/BA degree in that it usually provides the student with some world perspective and experience a two-year, focused, trade school probably will not. However, the cost has gotten prohibitively expensive and many of the degrees are frivolous — I’m not sure of the answer to that problem other than serious individual discernment. I do believe we’ve collectively lost the ability to manufactor quality in this country and have become almost a completely service-oriented work force. That seems way out of balance.

I think there are many kinds of intellect, not all of which are measured accurately by our IQ tests, and some of which are most profitably fruitfall when focused on a specific trade or apprenticeship. The desire to continue learning is not dependent on a college degree.

bottom line George, it's almost all about the economy. simple as that, complex & complicated as that. mix in a good dollop of advancing technology, foreign countries "finally" getting up to speed, and here we are, at various points at the RoundTable.

let me disagree with your assessment on a minor point, and that is national service. what a noble, & wonderful expression of willingness to serve the State. except, a lot of folks disagree with the premise, even though there are some good points. but the bad far outweighs the good. when a national gov't such as russia, china or the us can "mandate" it's citizens to do anything, then they are no longer citizens, they are subjects at that point. so, we remain friends but have a minor disagreement on this point of what does "nationalism" really mean.

technology, and labor rates, plus desire for profit is beginning to set the state (& stage) for the next millineum which we're already in. the counterpoint, or counter balance is sustainability. that's a bad word on many forums, i know that. but, it lingers in the background, it's motor just a-humming. it will not be denied.

these are interesting times, i'm glad Trump man is running the show. it'd been an unmitigated disaster in the alternative future.

A college education is right for some people and probably not the best use of time and resources for others. I think some go to college and take classes that don't challenge them enough just so they can earn some type of a degree. Others will pursue a degree that will be challenging and they will put forward a tremendous amount of effort in pursuit of that degree. I went to college because I wanted to become a civil engineer. I was always a good student but I still had to do a lot of very hard work to earn my engineering degree. Some people are not willing to study that hard. I later became a licensed professional engineer and worked for the same employer for 28 years. I retired five years ago at the age of 52. For me, a bachelors degree was the right path (and no I did not go into debt to earn my degree).

I apologize for getting long winded here but this is a subject I feel strongly about. I am proud of my accomplishments, humble though they may be. I feel frustrated with people that blew it or just never figured it out.

My parents offered to pay for college and I told them it would be a waste of my time and their money. I held a factory job and various retail jobs and was a scuba instructor for about 5 years after high school. I matured, swallowed my pride and moved back in with my parents for a few years. I worked and paid my own way at community college while they gave me free room & board. I also worked for temporary employment agencies during this time. It was through the temp agency that I got my big break when they sent me to an assignment in the mail room for a mutual fund company. I worked there through the agency for about 8 months, then was hired on full time. I took advantage of my employers tuition reimbursement program to pay for the rest of my classes and earned associate degrees in HVAC & stationary engineering. Transferred to the facilities department and had a good career their until being layed off in 2008 when everything went to [bleep]. I saw the layoff coming and had another job lined up. I am 52 and still working as a building engineer. I make around $50-55k per year and I've never had a student loan.

Some things I learned along the way:

Hard work and "paying your dues":
When I first moved to KC I worked for the temp agency. The first place they sent me was a warehouse for a radiator manufacturer where we loaded and unloaded semi trailers. It was hot, hard work. I saw guys go to lunch and not come back and I wondered if they had the nerve to ask the supervisor to sign their time card before they left so they could get paid for the 1/2 day of work.

A few years later when I went back to the agency seeking assignments in an office environment, I was speaking with a sixty-something year old woman and was telling her the different assignments I had completed with them in the past and I mentioned the radiator warehouse. She smiled and said "Ah yes, that is where we send the new hires to seperate the men from the boys!"

Persistence:
After being told by prospective employers that they had hired another candidate with previous office experience, I went back to the temp agency looking for office assignments (mail room or copy center). I called and spoke with a male one day, asking if they had any assignments for me and he said they did not. One or two days later I needed to call them regarding some paper work or something and spoke with a female and I reminded her what I was looking for... "Yes, we need people for a good local company, in their outgoing mail facility. It is a night shift, are you interested?" That was the company I ended up working at for almost twenty years.

Take care of the people that take care if you:
I told the temp agency that I was willing to work in warehouses, binderies, etc. in between office assignments, but my sole purpose in coming back to them was to gain professional office experience. One morning, I had been home less than an hour from the third shift mail room gig when the agency called in desperate need of someone to be a driver's helper delivering doors and windows to new home construction sites. I told her I had just gotten home from working all night. She pleaded with me to help them out - the driver could not unload the larger windows by himself - and she said a good part of the day would be riding in the truck between stops. I did the assignment and received the "temp of the month" award (which I brought with me when I interviewed for the full time mail room position).

Know a good thing when you have it:
I truly believe that is a big part of what seperates successful people from unseccesful people - recognizing and acting on a good opportunity. I saw people come and go when I was working as a temp and as a company employee I saw people quit or get fired over STUPID stuff.

I left my 401k in that company after I was layed off at the end of 2008. I just received my annual statement on it two days ago - the balance is over $500k. I look at those numbers and think about the guys that got fired for stealing candy bars from peoples lunches in the lunch room refrigerator or looking at porn on company computers....over $500k....they probably shoulda purchased their own candy bars or looksd at porn on their own time.

Scholarships.......

College app and scholarship system is a royal PITA. Lots of dishonest/inept folks in it too.
Gotta give credit to my ol lady............friggin' pit bull on the stuff. But she went to college on sports scholarship and knew ahead how the game was played.

Put a lot of time and money into our kids, they were our investment

Not sure if that was the smartest thing to do.
$ and relationship wise.

Hopefully the little fuggers appreciate what mom and dad did.

You can have an education,work for major company, bust ass.............and still get screwed.
Luck has a hell of a lot to do with it.

Still have anxiety over school............engineering.

Skipped some classes and walked into a surprise machine design test.
Panic mode, busted arse...........excellent fine pitch graph skills, backfed into equations a few times..........knew half the material.
Last one done, prof laughed at me.

Yup, I was a mess. My test was a mess.

And I aced it.

Thermo started with 30, ended up w 8 and only 6 of us passed.
Open note and book..........think 5 tests, 4 probs per test.............blow one and you were F'd.

I dropped Intro Algebra in community college - TWICE.
On my second attempt I made it about 5 weeks into the course when we had an exam. One of the word questions on the exam was about Susie and her shopping trip - by the end of the word problem, Susie had written a couple of bad checks. The students who treated it as an algebra problem missed this question because apparently there is a rule in Algebra that if you subtract a negative number from a negative number, you get a positive number. Well, since I did not know anything about algebra I treated this question as the accounting problem that it was and answered it correctly. When the exams were graded, I failed miserably - missed almost everything but that word problem. When we discussed it, there was great wailing and gnashing of teeth from most of the class that missed it - they claimed it was at trick question - and there I sat thinking "trick question? Hell, it was the only question I understood. I'm outta here".

Technical Mathematics I & II was my other option to get the math credits to complete my degree and I found a very sympathetic instructor who got me through it.

I don’t see how you can go wrong in the military. GI Bill, learn a trade, service to your country.....

I eventually finished an engineering degree (a lot of math , up to Calc III ) ,but I had a break from school and forgot how to do algebra. I was at the community college and went into the study room and watched vhs tapes to get me back up to speed on algebra when I returned to classes.

My last kid, also honors grad in HS............came to me with some math prob.
The books are written horribly...........and somehow I pulled the proper term for what she was attepmting, and on 2nd try actually got it to work.
She looked at me like a deer in the headlights............."how did you do that?"

Nuts and bolts kiddo.

Been around for a long time, this math crap. Hippies trying to teach it to the 1 student, in that 1 special way (leaving the other kids to flounder) is what's new.

The classrooms suck, the admins suck, the teachers suck............it's all cosmic feel good BS............perpetuating popular culture.
It is a tool of destruction.

Parents have to work extra hard, to make sure the kids don't get poisoned by the toxic atmosphere............and on top of that help them learn what the stuff really is.............and then guard them from inept/crooked teachers trying to punish them for being successful in spite of the teachers.

It aint just college............it's HS and JH too.

Am so glad to be done with that crap.

IMHO you need to homeschool nowadays, and let them take over your private business.
Anything else is a crapshoot.

College just isn't the right choice for everyone. I'm a non-degreed person, and we have done all right. I'll never be rich, but then again, I never really thought I would be. Would a degree have gotten m further? Most likely. I've been in the optical field for over 30 years now. I manage a Vision Center for Wal-Mart and love what I do. I like working with my hands, helping people, especially my neighbors in my community, and I enjoy taking the time to talk to them and see what's going on in their busy lives. I stumbled into this field totally by accident, and decided I liked it. Dad was a carpenter by trade, but I can't build a bird feeder without screwing it up. Ask me to fix your glasses though, and I'm right in my wheelhouse.

My son was in the top 5% of his class. Very smart, great with computers, and has a love for firearms. He wanted to go to school for gunsmithing. He would have come out of school (Pine City Tech. in Pine City, Mn.,) with a dual certificate in gunsmithing and machining. It didn't work out for him. He dropped out, much to our surprise, but landed on his feet and got an office job working with computers and is doing pretty well for himself. They are living with us for a year while they save money to make a down payment on a piece of property out in the country.

It's a sad fact that lots of kids aren't willing to get their hands dirty today.. The skilled labor trades have tons of job openings going empty due to lack of qualified candidates. Machinists, Carpenters, Electricians, all are in high demand. The Technical Colleges can't graduate them fast enough. If you've got a kid who isn't afraid to work, and clean some crud out from under his nails, this would be a great area to explore.

That isn't it. For example, if we subtract -5 from -7 we get -2 which is a negative number.

It goes like this: Subtraction of a negative quantity amounts to addition of a positive quantity. So "whatever minus -2" is the same as "whatever plus 2", and the "whatever plus 2" can turn out to be positive, negative or zero depending on the magnitude and sign of the whatever.

Lots of kids today don't get dirty.............because they're afraid to succeed.
They have a zap on the head.
How in the flip it got there I have no idea.
Political correctness/school systems reward fluff..........and they all know it's BS.

To get dirty, actually do something based on effort.........is scary.
They might fail..........

if so they can just claim victim status.

But holycow..............what if they succeed?

The answer is, those jobs are where people find them. I'm an engineer but work with many folks in the trades. Those that are successful worked their way up and most started in rinky dink outfits making not so hot pay. They learned along the way, gained skills, gained contacts and paid their dues. Anyone with the mindset that they take a given path and will have guaranteed success and will be set for life is a fool, doesn't matter whether they are in the trades or have a college degree. With the internet, there is no excuse to say what jobs are in demand and where are they. An evening spent doing a little research with google will pay dividends

Success may require changing careers or industries a couple times during ones working life and chasing work around the country or around the world. We are in a fast paced mobile world. Those that are able to adapt will succeed, those that don't will be left in the dust.

One doesn't need 50k job opportunities, they need one 1/2 decent one and then work their way up the ladder. The first job in any career is the hardest to get, with work ethic and a few years under ones belt, the sky is the limit the only thing holding one back is the guy or gal you see in the mirror every morning.

Just remember, the kid that you struck out in 6th grade..........will probably be your boss in corporate america...........and he doesn't forget.
One manager can kill a career, doesn't matter how good you are or your work ethic.

Because if you have a hotter spouse than your boss, have more hair than your boss, are taller/thinner than your boss, are more skilled than your boss, or better liked than your boss..................any ONE of these things...............and you are F'd.

Management .................the "clay people".

If you have skills, a brain.....or just speak the truth......................they'll hate you.
You have worth, and they don't.
They pee the bed thinking about how scary you are.

Saw a bunch of worthless piece of chit people working for GM for 20 yrs.
Most were EE's or in management.
Social misfits with a grudge.
or just plain F ups.

Never beat the ex-quarterback, egotistic big boss at golf no matter how much he runs his mouth on the course. It is particularly bad if the other two in your foursome are managers/supervisors below him and above you.

I went to college. I'm trained in radio and TV broadcasting. I'm legal anywhere in the US. I might get back into it, when I retire. There is a saying " what's the diffrence between a pizza and a broadcaster? A pizza can feed TWO people. "
How I make my living, there are no schools for. I'm a controlled access technition. I keep bad guys out, while allowing free access for those who belong there. Do it right, things work as designed. Do it wrong, you get mangled or dead.
I make decent money, but as a single income, sick wife, and lone bread winner, I pay more in medical every day, than mortgage. The benefits are a part of the package that must be considered, when selecting any career path. I've been doing this for @35 years.

BEING A SENATOR OR CONGRESSMAN FOR BOTH PARTYS OF FOOLS