Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Predators and Varmints Hey, Convince me on a pelt cartridge & load

Been thinking of getting a dedicated rifle for fur. Coyotes, fox, and Bobcats are my target.

I'll be running a shotgun, and hope my calling will bring them inside of 50 yds.

But for those shy hangers beyond shotgun range, I'll be needing another tool.

Mostly eastern wood lots and farms. I probably won't be shooting beyond 250 yds (maybe 300) so keep that in mind.

I need something that won't splash too badly on a circling critter trying to get down wind, has to penetrate, yet not exit.

17's interest me, as does the 204. But I have zero experience with either.

Convince me of a cartridge and bullet that, if not meeting my critera makes the best compromise.

The cartridge that will reliably kill Coyotes and be "fur friendly" for Fox doesn't exist but the 17FB is a good compromise.

FieldGrade,
Thank you..

I was afraid of that, and easterns are large dogs, I'd rather not error to much on the too light side of things and lose a coyote.

If the FB is plenty adaquate for 'yotes, then I wonder how the FB would do for fox when down loaded.......?

Having similar hunting parameters, I'll go a head and vote .17 Hornet. Three hundred yards is pushing it a bit for critters coyote sized but I've been in love with my .17 Hornet as a fur rifle with the factory loaded Hornady 25gr HP.

To date, that rifle has taken a huge pile of varmints including coyotes, a few foxes as well as a few bobcats. It has been EXTREMELY fur friendly and EXTREMELY deadly! Exits are very rare on coyotes and cats, dime sized or smaller when it does. Exits on foxes are hit and miss though. Some small, some large depending on range, bone encountered, angle, fringe hit, etc. Overall, still better than 20gr V-max, IMO.

I like the 20gr V-max load, don't get me wrong but I see it better suited to crows, colony varmints and jack rabbits! If coyotes weren't on the hit list and I didn't care about fox fur, I could happily run this load all the time. Overall between the 20gr v-max and 25gr HP, I've found the 25gr to be the more versatile load because it's deadly on everything from ground squirrels to coyotes.

To touch on effective ranges a bit more, 300yrd coyotes are doable but you must be very trigger wise...250yds and less equal dead coyotes if the bullet is placed properly. My Ruger All Weather is a phenomenal shooter and by far owns the title as highest body count of any rifle I own.

I love the mild report and you can always see the impact in the scope, very gratifying! A mild report is very important in and around the cattle ranches I hunt. It puts farmers at ease when you pull out a tiny .17 Hornet round to show them what you'll be hunting around the livestock with.

Additionally, a big greedy handful of cartridges still fits easily in a shirt or pants pocket and weigh next to nothing. I always hate packing more weight and bulk than I need.

Good affordable factory loads are readily available. I see no reason to handload this cartridge but you can gain another 100fps or so if you are inclined.

It's very flat shooting to its max effective range, which as I said, is about 300yds for predators. I don't like having to fiddle with turrets on a calling rifle if I don't have to.

As you can tell, I'm very fond of and can find very little wrong with the 17 Hornet as an all-around 300yd varmint rifle........


X-VERMINATOR

I appreciate your post

Down loaded certainly an option W the 17 FB. Best all around bullet will be a 25 grain HP either Hornady or Nagel and yes the fireball would allow you to achieve an optimum velocity.

If I was just starting out with your intent in mind with the 17 FB I would likely give the 25 grain Hornady HP a try over CFE BLK and see what you may find for accuracy nodes. Should you wish to find a more temp stable propellent with a higher velocity potential Benchmark or IMR 8208 would be my focus based on experience.

Good luck on finding a 17 FB. If you wanted to build one I may look for a CZ527 in 221 FB and Swap barrels. Then the CZ 527 in 17 Hornet is readily available and from what I see this may cover nearly all your needs.

In the case of the 17 Hornet Accurate 2200 and the same Hornady 25 grain HP would be the path I would choose based on experience.

Wish you well.

Hunterapp,

Thanks for posting and encouraging the process.

Best to you.

That's what I did about ten years ago.....it's my favorite rifle.
I shoot 20gr Nagel V-046's but I seldom shoot Coyotes. If I was targeting Coyotes I'd step up to 25's.

Never considered the 20 grain Nagels before. While Field Grade is correct on 25's may be more optimum for coyote. I can see where the 20's would be preferable in terms of pelt preservation on Bobcats & Fox. Field grade makes another good point here not to be overlooked.

The Nagel V-046's comes to a finer point than any Berger HP you will find on the market today for example. The finer HP tends to be more friendly on pelts on entrance. A larger more open H.P. has a greater tendancy to expand early. When any bullet contacts heavy bone there is a greater tendency for a messy splash. This goes at least double for large hollow points or plastic tips.

In any case you will do well to avoide that shoulder bone. In the real world not every thing goes to plan and bullet selection can offer some measure of forgiveness.

Wish you Well!

I've not shot as many coyotes or bobcats as many of you, I'm sure. But I have shot enough bobcats to know that they're a lot more fragile than a coyote, as far as damaging the pelt. Every cat I've killed has been with a 223 or 204, all using VXax bullets, with the exception of one. That one was shot through the ribs with a 55 grain SP, and was almost blown in half.

Most of my coyotes have also been taken with the 223, and the 50 grain VMax. Never had any pelt damage, but have had a couple of instances of bullet splash. I usually hunt with a 223, mostly because I'm calling to both coyotes and cats. If I'm strictly after coyotes, then it's usually a 243 or 22-250. There may not be a better coyote cartridge on the planet than a 243.

A .17 Hornet is a beautiful thing. A perfectly placed shot to the front of the neck is like an act of God. Pick your shots.

Always like looking at this rifle. Wouldn't mind one in a 17 FB or even a little 20 on the Fireball case.

I agree, that rifle is a beaut.

Thanks for all the posts guys, I appreciate it much.

A Vartarg would be sweet but the 17's stole my heart long before 20's existed and at my age I don't accept change very well.

I shot a few fox with the 17 years ago, and seen the results from others that used them. At one time, when fur prices where high the 17 was popular back home. The 17 gave mixed results. A close shot that hit bone, well it shredded pelts. If the range was 100 yards or more and no bone was struck, well you would of thought they died from heart failure.

Yep...she' a bit hot for those targets about 1/2 gallon milk carton size, by the sounds lf it.

My $.02. I agree with FG. There is no magic cartridge that's perfect for fox AND coyotes, but the closest bullet I've found in my experience is a 25gr Berger HP moving close to 4K fps. X-verminator has probably killed more fur than the rest of us combined, and I have no doubt his vote on the 17 hornet is well founded, but I'm real partial to the 17 Remington myself. I have a 17 FB, a 204, 20 practical, several 223s and 22 hornet, but the 17 Rem is my Huckleberry. Hunting in the East, I've killed 50+ yotes with it in the last 4 or 5 years. 2 bobcats and a couple truck loads of fox.

The Bergers rarely give me an exit. Even on fox about 50% have no exit, but they kill coyotes like the hand of God in most cases. Ive tried the 25gr Hornady HP, and I didn't get as good of results with it as I did the Bergers. IMO the Bergers are worth the premium price if saving fur is what you want. Save the plastic tipped chit for punching holes in paper or blowing crap up.

If I had to chose a second choice based on saving fur only, I'd go with the 22 hornet. If you are hunting Eastern woodlots most of your shots are going to be inside 100 yds, and the slower hornet speeds will still kill without the violence of most other center fires. I have a Savage 24 in 22 hornet over 12 ga that is my go to day time - in the woods rig and has piled up a lot of fur over the years.

Just wanted to say thank you for all the posts, very informative.

More fur harvested around here with a 12g shotgun than with a rifle. With the right shotgun, choke, and loads, you can successfully take them out to 100 yards without any fur damage.

I'd like to see one of your 100 yard patterning targets, and perhaps hear about your choke and constriction numbers, as well as the particular load doing the 100 yard killin.
I would be more than interested.

If I was close in my calculations, the BB size lead shot has;
A .014 B.C. value
If leaving the shotgun muzzle at 1430fps
A 7.4 grain pellet of #4 shot will strike with 3.2 ft/lbs of energy at 100 yards.
And will have slowed to 438.2 fps. by the time it reaches 100 yards.

Might be off a little in my calculations, but it's not surprizing to me that there's not much fur damage caused by a shotgun load at 100 yards.